Lit Should Darth Krayt have been Jacen Solo?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    I've been musing about the weaknesses of LotF and the reflection of it to Legacy. There are a lot of similarities about it, and I have been wondering whether the amazing success of Legacy actually hurt LotF.

    The Sith take over the Empire... Which Jacen tries to do in Revelation...

    The Jedi are massacred at Ossus... Which Jacen attempts in Inferno,..

    Superficially, they're the same... But Legacy did it in one issue. LotF in eight novels over years.

    I remember the theories that the war in LotF would lead to the Sith-Imperial War, and that Jacen would become Krayt - the connections flowed very well. Of course, Krayt became Hett, and he was an entirely separate character.

    But would I have ran better if Jacen had killed Luke and the future moved on with people believing that he was dead?
  2. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Maybe better for LotF, but not for Legacy. The beauty of the Claws of the Dragon story arc is that, while every reader was expecting some kind of big Darth Krayt reveal, the real plot twist concerned Morrigan Corde. And no one expected that.
  3. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Plus, Cade and Krayt being related, however distantly, would have been boring and obvious. The Skysolos have more than enough of a presence in Legacy already.
    Phoenix5 and WIERD_GREEN_MAN like this.
  4. melkor834 Jedi Grand Master

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    I would have certainly preffered it to Krayt being A'sharad... I could never get behind that.
  5. Onderon1 Force Ghost

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    I was never particularly satisfied with Jacen's fall, tbh; even at his worst as Caedus, he never seemed to fully commit to being Sith. Dark, deluded, temperamental, very dangerous, yes - but never quite all there.

    A'Sharad became a monster, what with the Sith Troopers and sanctioning Vul Isen's poison obsession, whereas Jacen ... well, he seemed wishy-washy. None of this diminishes my opinion that Jacen was mynock-shavit crazy, but it's not the same psychosis as Krayt, IMHO.

    A'Sharad went from revenge ("Skywalker and Palpatine killed my extended family") to obsessive control freak ("replace Two Sith with One Sith, Fel with myself") to just plain sadist (Sith Troopers).

    Whereas Jacen was willing to appropriate others' terrible ideas and/or encourage others to do bad things and capitalize on it (Ben's hair-brained idea about targeting Wookiee population centers). He's an opportunist, a follower, a ...

    :eek: Jacen reverted back to his early NJO-self. :oops: Except as an ineffective Sith instead of an ineffective Jedi. [face_thinking]

    I suppose the worst moment of all this came in Revelation, when it felt like the anti-Pellaeon Moffs were carefully laughing behind Jacen's back. Sort of like high school jocks pretending to support a nerd's efforts to make the team, but snickering at him when he takes the field. :p

    I suppose that's the difference between having a Sith spirit of one of the original Exiles as a Sith mentor, and being taught by your uncle's cybered-up crazy ex-girlfriend. :p
    son_of_skywalker03 and ILNP like this.
  6. Ghost Chosen One

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    To be fair, Jacen was only a Sith Lord for less than a year, who knows what he might have become in ten years. Also, if you just read BETRAYAL and INVINCIBLE, Jacen comes across as a strong and competent adversary, more of a Vader than a Sidious.
  7. Onderon1 Force Ghost

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    I'll agree with you about Invincible. Jacen did seem to get his act together then (when Luke wasn't messing with his visions, and possibly doing more mental hoodoo); Jacen was focused, and that made him much more than he'd been for (IMHO) most of the past eight books.

    Betrayal, OTOH ... Jacen was together then, also, but I don't think it was as a Sith. And not just because he had yet to talk with Lumiya, but because he seemed to do well on short, specific tasks. ("Find out about the tassels;" "Infiltrate this Adumari munitions plant and get evidence.")

    It's big picture things that Jacen seems to not deal well with, in looking at all of LOTF. By Invincible, I think he'd grown (through several stumbling blocks) into a dangerous potential mastermind - but as you say, he hadn't had the time to let that experience gel.
  8. Darth_McCain Jedi Grand Master

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    Only if in the books we were led to believe that Jacen died and the comic fleshed out his return and domination of the galaxy. I think one thing that made Krayt a fantastic Sith was his patience, lost his arm to Obi, tortured by Vong, killed and reborn he was tenacious and formidable. Jacen was slowly losing his sanity and lost him the war, galaxy and his life.
  9. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

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    Woukd've been better than bringing back freakin' Clone Wars characters that should be dead and gone.

    Now think about how much I LOATHE LOTF for a moment...
  10. LordTroepfchen Force Ghost

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    Well a good friend of mine (and yours, I believe) lately studied narrative structure and when we talked about it . . . I always love to talk about things like this with people . . . he actually explained how obvious it was LotF did not work. It wasn´t even the bad writing and writing was pretty bad sometimes, it was simply the structure of the story, which was none.

    What they do all the time is a like a preuqel or a very long first act. They build up and push characters into a situation and then . . . they skip the second act, or the climax. It never happens. After Inferno they just do the third act, which is the road ot the final confrontation. So we emotionally totally miss the second act. Stories don´t work without a second act. We never got one. Which makes Jacen the eternal looser who looses a long string of duels, fails in every evil act at least partially and then is dead. Skywalker-scale POWER! You hear fans scream that, but he never shows any of it. He is good with a saber. How useless for a leader of the galaxy!

    That is all, because he doesn´t get the second act, in which he usually has his victories, the heroes get into peril and the question if the hero can overcome him is asked.

    LEGACY did it in a classical way. Push Sith resurrection, Ossus and everything into a first act and then go on with the second, which really is Krayt preparing endgame, while fighting his illness. It is not the same, it is a completely different story, because it takes the same elements and uses them as they should be used, really. The story is the second act then. LotF is like Legacies prologue. Legacy is about Cade and his way back. It really begins there, were Legacy ends with the bad guys death. Like Krayt dying at Caamas, so to say.



    So Jacen being Krayt? Jacen, the guy who always looses when he ignites his saber? Jacen the guy who . . . let´s stop it here. Yes, Jacen being Krayt would be heartbreaking, but still LotF would need to be undone and we would need a Jacen who is actually smart and succesfull and cunning. We would need to get rid of flowwalking and things (because Krayt obviously cannot do that, or half his problems would be gone) and concentrate on him as villain building himself up to be dangerous one day.

    The problem is, they are two very different characters. Krayt is a guy who looks like he is a dumb guy in a suit and really is a tactical thinking mind with a masterplan. Jacen looks like he is a master amnipulator, but really is quite . . . yes . . . dumb and arrogant, making mistakes, because he never seem to hasve thought anything through.



    I actually did not dislike Jacen as a villain, it was just a shame about the old Jacen being so different. but a short-lived Sith, who is arrogant. A barking dog who isn´t half as good in biting as he thought, but dangerous in his loss of control and embrace of violence . . . that is something that needs to happen in SW too. Not every Sith can succeed. Just such a character does not need 40 books of build up.

  11. BobaMatt TFN EU Staff

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    Here's the link to my original thread. I still think this would have worked better and made everything synergistic rather than repetitive. Granted I wrote the original post at the beginning of LotF.
  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    The only good thing about Jacen Solo is that he WASN'T Darth Krayt.

    Given the parameters of the story, what other PT Jedi could have fulfilled that role? At first I thought it was cheesy that Hett lived so long, but after he pitched Cade, Krayt's history became a rich tale about ever-finding pain at every turn.... so now, I'm not sure if anyone else could have pulled it off as well.

    Thankfully for Hett/Krayt, Dark Horse was in control & not a half-dozen writers trying to personalize/mold/stamp THEIR version of the character.;)
  13. BobaMatt TFN EU Staff

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    Isn't that kind of the problem? The Star Wars story is couched very comfortably in the PT timeframe, with some Luke stuff in the middle.
  14. Dawud786 Force Ghost

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    ^That is a problem. Not so much with Legacy, but with Star Wars as a whole. Krayt is fine IMO... the problem becomes that the New Jedi Order is led by 2 Clone Wars Jedi. Much as K'kruhk is awesome... I don't like that he's in charge of the Jedi Order. It would have been better with some new Jedi or some long-lived Jedi from Luke's first and second "generations" of students.

    Overall, however, Star Wars is now in thrall to the PT. GL's pet character is Anakin Skywalker so all we get from him is Clone Wars. Nevermind that equally awesome stories could be told in the Rebellion era... and despite that era being chock full of EU stories, I would personally love a sequel to TCW in the form of a Rebellion series because it bothers me that Luke, Leia and Han are being squeezed out by Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka(I just can't put Padme in there because she's ultimately not that prominent in the minds of the TCW-viewing youth). And Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are just not that interesting. More over, so much time is being spent on making Anakin the Hero of Star Wars when we know full well that he is the villain of the second half of the saga with a last minute redemption. As powerful as it is, it's a last minute redemption. Whatever heroism Anakin does in the course of TCW he still undoes all of that good, and murders children. Luke is a pure hero, and I want my kids to have plenty of Luke in their lives.

    At this point, if that causes more havoc in the continuity I sort of feel like "so be it." GL ought to catch the Luke bug again, because there is plenty to tell.

    The EU has become so enamored of GL's vision of the galactic status quo that they've lost sight of the fact that GL's Republic is at it's most corrupt, the Jedi Order are a bunch of dupes and they are arrogant and stodgy. Somehow that translates into Luke's Jedi Order becoming a carbon copy? The New Republic and Galactic Alliance both crippled by the same corruption and crap politics of the Old Republic? No one learned anything at all? No one could come up with more creative ideas for compelling conflict? Let's toss some Sith in the mix every couple years, the Senate are a bunch of corrupt losers, and the Jedi Council are apparently morons. "How do we make this different somehow? I know! Let's have the Jedi Council fighting and killing each other all the time you know.. just because! Perfect. Recipe for success!"

    At least Legacy has a bunch of sensible Jedi in hiding who aren't always at each others throats. It's the novels that are in a PT-inspired stranglehold.
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Tano is nothing more than a Jedi replacement for Amidala.

    Only thing that saved Padme from being a latent Jedi, is that she didn't have a long lost twin brother. :p
  16. Sock2008 Jedi Knight

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    Solos have no presence in Legacy. Neither Leia, Han nor Jaina are ever mentioned. Jacen is mentioned only as a Sith in one sentence and instead of Darth Caedus he is called Darth Cadeus by Krayt...

    The possible descent of Roan Fel from Jaina and his wife from Allana, and their daughter from both Solo twins, is never even hinted at (if you don't want to count the one guess from an another character, after Cade had dropped out of sight, that he could have gone to Ossus or Hapes, and no reason for him having gone to Hapes was given; the fact that it was neutral territory could, of course, be explanation enough) in Legacy.

    That's the problem that killed Jacen in the end in my opinion, the Solos have no presence in Legacy and thus there was no character shield active for him, instead authors might, might have thought in LotF that they needed to explain why there are no Solos in Legacy and thus Jacen could have been killed to fit the novels with Legacy. Ben got an impenetrable character shield instead thanks to all the Skywalkers in Legacy or at least that's my opinion.

    More importantly, Darth Krayt is still tied to the Skywalkers. He's Anakin Skywalker's former friend, he believes the Skywalkers only exist because he didn't kill Anakin in their fight, he became a Sith partly because Obi-wan had hidden Luke on a farm on Tatooine that his personal war threatened. If Obi-wan would have hidden Luke on some another planet, Hett might have taken over Tatooine, had his private war with the Empire and got killed by Vader perhaps. So there's still a strong connection and based on that he could have, I think should have, been Jacen instead.

    In the same manner, Cade being a Skywalker could have been said to have been boring and obvious... ;)
  17. Yodaminch Force Ghost

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    See, I never got the impression K'kruhk was in charge of the Jedi Order. I simply think he was the de facto head at the moment. We know the attack on Ossus was sudden. We know jedi died. We also know they were mostly scattered and only those that knew the way made it to the hidden temple. We can also assume based on her rooted status, that T'ra Saa was always at the Temple so that's where she comes in.

    The most likely scenario is this: The grand master was killed along with several other council members. Others were likely scattered to the corners of the galaxy. K'kruhk heads up the largest faction of known jedi survivors. It's likely K'kruhk was on the council under Kol certainly, but I doubt he was the head. But because the others were dead or MIA, he sort of had it thrust on him and by the end of War, it's basically down to him and Chandra Fan.

    Now the out of universe explanation is pretty likely that Dark Horse didn't want to step on Del Rey's toes using their characters. And given the order as we see it is relatively small and we know from earlier issues of Legacy that the jedi are scattered (and K'kruhk himself was also scattered and didn't go to the Temple until after Ossus and even Sazen had no knowledge of the Temple) I think it's more plausible that K'kruhk is simply keeping the seat warm. Likely, he was hoping for Cade to take over but probably realizes that's not happening by the end.


    As to the original topic, should Krayt have been Jacen? Absolutely not. The beauty of A'sharad's shaping into Krayt was that it was fully believable. We've seen Hett's dark side before in the Hunt for Aurra Sing. Of all the jedi, he knew the dangers that Anakin posed to the future of the order and he kept it secret. So consider: He's lost his father, he's lost his second tribe, he at some point learns that he was betrayed by Anakin, he is humiliated and defeated by Obi-Wan and later learns why Obi-Wan was protecting that Lars farm. All of that anger builds and bubbles over when he finds the sith. And when he leaves, the person he'd been directing much of his hatred at (Vader) is dead and gone. He's then captured by the Vong and endures more torture and speaks with Vergere who essentially abandons him much like Obi-Wan did. So he's essentially betrayed by his own order.

    Compare this to Jacen's fall. Which one was better?
  18. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

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    May 11, 2009
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    Possibly, but only if Jacen tries to stop A'Sharad and ends up taking on his armor, much like Magneto wearing Sebastian Shaw's helmet in the last X-film.
  19. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

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    It doesn't really have to be the same armor does it?

    For the sake of argument,
    What if Jacen and Asharad met sometimes in LOTF and they switch identities? maybe via Jacen's flow walking shenanigans and something goes wrong, and the guy who got killed by Jaina in LOTF is actually Asharad (thinking himself as Jacen) and Darth Krayt is actually Jacen Solo, but thinks himself as Asharad? (Like a memory switch?) And of course Wyrlocks are involved.

    The guy Luke and Ben met in beyond dream could be something Abeloth cooked up, and not really Spirit Jacen.

    Darth Krayt could actually still be Jacen Solo. It also solves the question why spirit Luke never tells Cade about Darth Caedus, cause in one of the future books, Luke actually figures out that Jacen Solo could still be alive.
  20. Likewater Force Ghost

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    Maybe its me, Too much of the Star Trek mindset.

    Picard is not related to Kirk, who is not related to Sisko, Who is not related to Janeway, Who is not related to Pike, who is not related to April, who is Not related to Mackinzie Calhoun, who is not related to the Decker family, who is not related to....Well I am guessing you guys get my drift.


    None of the chracters in to Original Star Trek series have any relatives or decendants or decendants of relatives on any of the 24th centure era shows or novels, or in "Enterprise".

    Know why? cause liniage dosent matter!

    Ben Sisko's father was a Cook in a Louisiana resturant. Picard's father hell his family is decended from French wine farmers!


    Kirk's dad was in Starfleet yes in both universes, but he is clearly out of it by the time Kirk is Captain of the Enterprise.

    Janeway's father made it to admiral and is dead by ST:Voyager.

    Hell Tom Paris' father in the Admiralty dosent mean much to anyone.


    I will never get why so many Star Wars fans obesess over Skywalker and Solo liniage.
    RK_Striker_JK_5 likes this.
  21. BobaMatt TFN EU Staff

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    I think a lot of these responses are missing the point:

    The Krayt = Jacen theory existed at the beginning of LotF, before we knew the whole story and Jacen's whole arc - in fact, I think the Requiem for a Fantheory thread went up just before the release of Sacrifice. It doesn't make a difference how Jacen wound up as a Sith Lord, because the question at hand is whether it would have been better to have written the two stories together, with Jacen = Krayt as the plan, not whether the story we got would make sense if Jacen = Krayt.
  22. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

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    They are the only one who could beat up a uber Sith without people screaming WHAT was that? This puny character could never have beaten DARTH badbutt.

    Most of this is due to not enough character development for the younger generation. They are just canon fodder by this point. Need a character to die to make this book interesting? Insert generic youngling made by another author here (read Natua Wan)
    What do people think of having Mara instead of Tahiri as Vong guinea pig in the edge of victory duology?


    On another note:
    Need a character to heat up some romantic tension? But you really want Luke to end up with your character and not some other authors? Make generic character made by other author and make him/her suffer here (read Callista and Mara)....

    BobaMatt:
    As far as I'm concerned, it would have been better.
  23. Sock2008 Jedi Knight

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  24. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Would have been interesting to see. Would have been better than having an Old Republic Jedi being Krayt.
    If Jacen can't be Krayt, he should of at least been around for another series or two
    A Tool likes this.
  25. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

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    Mar 13, 2009
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    Amen brother.