PT Should Darth Maul have lived?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthanku, Sep 18, 2004.

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  1. Durinthiam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2005
    I love everything that has been said here, Jmaster Luke you make extremely good points, just in reference to Dooku turning against the order.

    It isn't just The Sith and The Jedi, there are also The Dark Jedi, Jedi who have strayed from the path and turned their backs on the teachings of the Jedi Council or have simply been exiled from the order.

    Anyway - Should Maul have died? Personally I think NO he should not have died, and the way in which he did die was absolutely rubbish, Darth Maul studied Teras Kasi (Iron Fist, basically Karate but for star wars) and an extremely elegant Lightsaber form, double-bladed fighting is a hard discipline, as anyone who trains in them in the real world will know, you have to be more focused on your form if you fight with 2 blades attached to 1 hilt as opposed to 1blade.

    Maul was an elegant warrior and could have easily slotted into EPII/III. This whole 'oh we needed to see how good Obi-Wan was early on, so killing a Sith - great', pure rubbish. There are many different ways that battle could have gone, even earlier in the duel in the huge power core room, when obi wan was thrown down onto the lower gantry, could have been knocked out and then Maul proceeds to killing Qui-Gon rather than Qui-Gon dying and Obi-Wan letting out a girlish scream as he watched it happen... this is what alot of people seem to miss right here, fear, anger, hate. Obi-Wan felt all of that when he saw his master die but he didn't give into those emotions, thus, showing his power as a Jedi, no need to get a cheap kill really.
    Sitara likes this.
  2. jediknightindroid Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Darthnnku,

    I agree with you entirely. I think the choreographing of the death of Darth Maul was terrible. He had several seconds to react to Obi-Wan's somewhat impressive manuever. For him to just stand there and get sliced is not realistic in my opinion.

    Unless, .....it is an inherent weakness of the Sith to freeze in moments of overconfidence. ??? Just as Maul's death seemed unrealistic, so also was Palpy's death in ROTJ equally anticlimatic. I mean his apprentice picks him up, carries him over to the precipice to throw him over and the all the Master of the Sith can do is scream? He had five seconds to react to Vader and all he could muster up was a scream? Maybe his overconfidence that Vader would never betray his master got the best of him. Hmm.
  3. arabiansanchez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2001
    star 4
    I'd say so. Even the great Palpatine is capable of shellshock.
  4. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    I was hoping Darth Maul would stay around til Episode 3. I wasnt too happy to see him go.
  5. Sithpanther13 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Man, Darth Maul was the best thing that could've happened to Ep. 1 and Lucas had to go and mess that up too! He hyped up the character before the release of the movie then, what does he do? He offs him like he was a nobody. Lucas should've at LEAST kept him around for Ep. 2. He could have tied his character in somehow. So, in short, should Darth Maul have died, plain and simply, no.
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The dialogue between Maul and Sidious on the balcony could have been better as well...


    (walking around corner)

    Sid: "The end of the Republic is near Lord Maul, our time has come... I have foreseen this."

    Maul: "As always, I am yours to command Lord Sidious."

    (they stop at the rail)

    Sid: "You have been well trained my young apprentisss, no longer will you hunt in the shadows."

    Maul: "What is to be done Master?..."

    Sid: "Move first against the Jedi, you will show them the meaning of fear..."

    Maul: "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge. I will bring the Order to its knees my Lord..."

    (motions for Maul to leave with wave of his hand)

    Sid: "Now, go... and let nothing stand in your way..."

    (cut to close-up shot of Sidious staring out at the traffic)

    Sudooku likes this.
  7. Quietman77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2000
    star 1
    Should Maul have died? My bold, decisive answer is that... it depends.

    If we accept that the "...only two Sith Lords..." premise is necessary and unavoidable, and Mr. Lucas believes that it is the case, then yes, Maul had to die.

    The whole concept behind the Clone Wars is actually pretty clever. If Palpatine is to control both sides of a war, he needs a surrogate to work the other side, and I just can't see Maul becoming a political entity. He's too freaking scary.

    Although he wasn't really given enough to do in AOTC, I think that Christopher Lee was the perfect choice for this role. In past movies, he was always quite effective at playing characters as both dangerous (sometimes downright psychotic), yet retaining an aire of aristocracy.

    This presumes that there can be only two Sith Lords. Although I've heard Mr. Lucas's commentary on this, and can understand his reasoning, I don't concur. I would much rather have had Maul survive TPM, and take on the role of super-Sith enforcer throughout the trilogy, with Dooku/Tyrannus working undercover.

    IMHO, we probably don't need a General Grievous, and, even if we do, there's still room for Maul. I'd have loved for him to continue to menace the Republic, and the Jedi, thoughout the trilogy.

    If I were writing the PT, I'd have the final, big battle involve Dooku and Maul (and maybe Grievous or Jango Fett) on one side, with Anakin and Obi-Wan on the other side. During this big brawl, I'd have Anakin (who's got a bit of a mean streak) to fight with absolute ruthlessness in his quest to help the Jedi "win".

    Finally, Obi-Wan, shocked by what he'd seen, could confront Anakin, one thing would lead to another, Anakin would become disfigured, and this would finalize his transition to Vader.

    Just my opinion.
  8. meekrob Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Well if it hasn't been said already - Lucas seems to take out the cooler villans in the worst ways. IE: Boba Fett.
    At least Mauls death was in the midst of a fierce battle - & not an random act.

    I have thought the same thing though. For me Maul was one of the best things about EP1. I love the presence Christopher Lee brings to a movie. But him fighting at the end of Clones didn't compare to what Ray Park broght to his Sith Charecter. IF there wasn;t the Master apprentice rule to the Sith lore, and I was Lucas, I would've kept Maul around for all 3 films & gave him a dramatic exit in EP3.
  9. Lord_Silversaber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2005
    I think Palps knew Maul would fail. He simply used Maul let the Jedi know that the Sith had returned. Remember Palps was a racist who had a distaste for anybody who wasn't human. In fact, when he establishes the Empire the only other non-human to hold any rank is Grand Admiral Thrawn. So, IMO he sacrificed Maul to announce his presence.
  10. Glyphrunner Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    Darth Maul's death was necessary, as it cleared the way for Palpatine's next move, global politics.

    Darth Maul was raised and trained purely as a warrior. There was no intent on him being used to unite factions in rebellion. There was no intent on using him to destroy the Jedi. Maul's purpose towards the Jedi was to make the presence of the Sith once again known, and thereby instill fear, mistrust, doubt and confusion into the ranks of the Jedi. Also, he was used to begin a series of battles that would be escalated to war by an outward shown force in political intrigue, called Count Dooku.

    Count Dooku was necessary in his role to bring about the unification of dissent against the Republic so as to add more weight to Palpatine's measures against the rebellion. With the political maneuvering that Dooku was capable of, Palpatine was able to garner total power to himself in order to create his empire.

    Each apprentice of Palpatine's serves a purpose. They are all his tools in his path to conquest and control, and that is all they are.

    While I think that Maul could have died in a much more believable fashion, the fact that he had to die stands or else Palpatine would have had to remove Maul himself. Quite honestly, Maul should have died at the hands of Obi-Wan in a squared out battle, demonstrating the prowess of Ben in combat, but it also should have been done with Obi-Wan's preferred form, Form 1, the denfensive form.
  11. the-siths-revenge Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2005
    star 1
    In my rewrite of TPM and AOTC I'm working on it happens like this

    after Maul kills Qui-Gon he fights Obi-Wan Maul pushes Obi-Wan down that hole Maul thinking Obi-Wan died walks away.then in Aotc Maul fights Obi-Wan and Anakin as Dooku watches Maul knocks them out then Dooku approaches Maul and congratulates him then he kills Maul after Maul is dead Mace Windu appeares him and Dooku fight he knocks Mace out as well then Yoda apperes Dooku knowing how powerful Yoda is flees but not before using the force to pull rafters down on Mace,Obi-Wan and Anakin but Yoda saves them of course
  12. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    thats alot of fights you got going on in AOTC.

    Obi vs maul, then maul vs anakin, then dooku kills maul, then dooku vs mace, then yoda vs dooku.

    we see how bad trying to squeeze anakin/obi/yoda vs dooku.
  13. poker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2005
    star 3
    I think its ok he died, but I HATED THE WAY HE DIED!

    Anyone else is upset how ObiWan kills him? I don't really like how he lets ObiWan cut him in half.

    That scene needs editing! ;)
  14. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah Poker it was the longest two seconds ever. I could've brushed ,flossed and rinsed in the time it took Obi to do all that... and whats up with the look on Maul's face when he looks down, right before "Obi's Big Leap?" That look is even worse than the one when he gets cauterized into two equal parts...He should have died just for looking like a moron...

    Hated the way he went out, nothing like the way he fought...
    Sitara likes this.
  15. Sergeant_Steiner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 1
    Yes, however not in the manner that he was despatched by Obi Wan. Darth Maul deserved a great death and it was also Lucas's opportunity to establish Obi Wans reputation as a great Jedi. Sadly he did neither!

    I have been rather disappointed with Obi-Wan. In the OT he was described as a great Jedi.. however in his two main duels in the PT so far his manner of victory over Darth Maul was rather unsatisfactory and he was completely inadequate against Count Dooku. Apart from doing a fine Sherlock Holmes impersonation there's been nothing great about Obi Wan so far.

    Going on past form it looks like Anakin will have to stumble into the lava pit for Obi to have any chance of defeating him.
  16. mrfootball Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2005
    star 2
    being sliced in half isn't a good death? that was awesome!
  17. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, i have nothing against how he died. After all Maul thinks obi wan doesn't have a saber. Obi grabed the saber in mid air. By the time maul saw that obi had a saber it was to late to react to it.

    Now should he have died? I still say no
  18. DAFT_MAUL77 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2005
    I don't think we saw enough of Darth Maul, I would have liked to see him as the villain right into ROTS and would've loved to see him duel against Anakin, whereby Anakin kills Maul and so becomes Sidious' new apprentice.

    I don't think Dooku is a strong enough charachter and I certainly don't think he should've had the power of Sith lightening in AOC, that should've remained reserved only for Sidious/Emporer!!
    Sitara likes this.
  19. Neo-Paladin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2004
    star 4
    Mythologically speaking, he needed to die.
    I don't think of Maul as a character as much as a beast. He has almost no dialogue, he's fear inspiring, and very dangerous (evident from having cut down others), with no clear motivations other than to obey his master and kill.

    Many myths begin the hero's path by fighting and slaying a beast. It is their trial by fire. Maul was Obi-Wan's beast to slay, and as a result Obi-Wan was made a knight.

    At least that's how I read it.
  20. Mekanus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
    too bad duels cant be more than jk2 and jk3 in the movies :p
  21. Catseyes69 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Actually. I read a graphic novel where a newly created Darth Vader went to a planet to kill some wayword Dark people. It turned out that Palpy had cloned Maul. The two faught and Vader appeared to be beaten.

    I was shocked to see him use the Force to pull his saber to him, stab through his OWN body and into Mauls.

    As Maul died he asked him what he could possibly hate enough to be able to do such a act. As Vader walked away wounded, he replied. "Myself."

    I felt that even for a cmic book it was a amazing bit of writing. I can't remeber the title but it was a Dark Horse release and within the last 2 years.

  22. Darth_Renegade Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    The fact that GL has inspired so much passion in this universe is amazing in and of itself. Wow! That being said, being a HUGE Maul fan, I hated to see him die, but completely understand WHY he had to go. Think about how much vision Palpatine had. He made the "secret alliance" with the Trade Federation knowing that a 14 year old queen MUST react in the way that she did. She HAD to go to the senate, and she HAD to get the vote of no-confidence started in order to get assistance to her people. Making enough "under-cover" deals in his senatorial dealings, Palpatine KNEW that he would get nominated. It only takes a motion and a second, much like the vote of no-confidence did. He did bet heavily that he would get elected, but played the odds in his favor by using the sympathy that he garnered by his world being under attack. Had anyone advised Padme properly, she would have realized that if Valorum couldn't get things done without a committee being created to "study the situation", why would things be any different for a new chancellor, whomever that might be? It wouldn't. Period. He used it to put himself in the position to set things up for the future.
    What does all of this have to do with Maul? Simply this. Maul was a tool that Palpatine used to further his goals. His life or death meant little to Palpatine. If he had been successful, it would have made Palpatine's master plan easier to achieve, but as most politicians are, Palpatine was able to adapt to his situations and turn things into his favor. Had Maul killed the Jedi and Padme, wht do you think that Palpatine would have done? Taken emergency powers in the face of the crises on Naboo. Sound familiar, doesn't it? Maul being killed only delayed what had already been set in motion. Now Palpatine needed to find a new apprentice, AND a pawn to help him move forward since his initial plan failed when Naboo was licerated. Enter Jar Jar Binks. Yep, that Jar Jar, the one that most of you hate so passionately. All Jar Jar wanted was to be accepted. As an integral part of the Liberation of Naboo, and the peacemaker between Gungans and Naboo humanoids, Padme AND Boss Nass would have both wanted him to act as their go-between for communication between their civilizations. What did Palpatine see? An answer. Jar Jar, while incredibly noble and having an incredible heart was not the most intelligent sentient being in the universe, now was he? No, which made him perfect for Palpatine. All he had to do was get Padme out of office and move at that time. I'm sure it was another setback to his plans when Padme was elected a senator. He needed her out of the way so that he could USE Jar Jar. Either dead from an assassin, or in hiding to avoid one, he achieved this, which put Jar Jar in position as the representative of Naboo. Palpatine, being from Naboo, would have an influence on Jar Jar no matter what. Did you really think that it was a coincedence that Mas Amedda mentioned "too bad Senator Amidala isn't here to propose such a radical ammendment as voting the Chancellor emergency powers"? Of course not, Palpatine was playing on Jar Jar's sense of wanting to do what was right. Like Maul he was a tool, and although hated by fans, he really was one of the most integral characters in the whole 6 part saga. Jar Jar is what allowed Palpatine to go from Senator to Emperor.
    All that being said, back to Maul. Here is where the problem lies. Maul was extremely skilled. Did he need to die? Of course not, but it did push the story where GL needed it to go. Maul having the skill to create a double-bladed lightsaber as only Exar Kun had before him shows his incredible skill. He was defeated much too easily in order to show Obi-Wan's progression. Even had he been incredulous as some have suggested to see Obi-Wan flipping from the pit, his reflexes alone would have prevented him from being split in two as he was. A black belt martial artist doesn't lose his trained reflexes when he sees something incredible. Did he underestimate a mere Padawan learn
  23. starwarspmp Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    CHANGING THE STORY...
    i've noticed a lot of you people seem to want to change the story a lot by letting maul live, wouldn't it make just as much sense for you to take the three characters, maul, dooku, grevious, and turn them just into maul and dooku, you then get more time for those two SITH instead of a lightsaber fighting, jedi killing DROID?!?!? Dooku could be leader of sepretist and droid general, maul could have been episode one badass and still stay around just in the shadows until we needed another baddy to fight in episode three.
    MY ACTUAL THOUGHTS...
    now I don't know what happens in episode three, outside of what i've scene in trailers so thats all i'm going to base this out of... we know that maul had to die, grevious has to die, dooku has to die, I personally believe grevious is going to be killed by obi, which is again going to show how powerful he is in lightsaber combat, how far he has come, so if you replace maul in for grevious, guess what? obiwan still kills that character... maul doesn't have to have leadership qualities or have many speaking lines, he just has to be a fighting force. Any quality(inteligence, character development, leadership) that grevious might have can be given to dooku to make him that much of a major character in the early trilogy. That lets dooku serve his "noble" purpose and still allows for a great martial artist in episode three instead of a man vs computer generated character like grevious.
    That would solve a lot of problems people have (including myself) with all these bad guys showing up and dieing, maul, venturess(cartoons) dooku, grevious, thats a lot of bad deaths when how many people die in the original trilogy? um, tarkin and boba? grevious is about the same as those two combined, and yeah, definately not nearly the same as three sith
    AND IN REALITY...
    for those of you that have complained about the time frame on obiwan maul death, come on, i mean its not like movies never slow down time to show somthing really cool, it's a movie making element, not a standard amount of time.
    AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO LIKE TO GO REALLY FAR OUT THERE...
    what if grevious(part humanoid) was really what was left of darth maul's body after being chopped in half and fallen down a long shaft, its not like palpatine wouldn't know the layout of naboo's facilities, it is his homeworld, what if he went there shortly after and picked up the broken pieces ... cause the blade would have cartized the wound so he wouldn't have died from loss of blood so then he becomes this crazy half robot, half human, force user, leader of the army, trying to kill jedi... wait, isn't that what vader became? anyway, for those of you who really think out of the box, chew on that.

    thanks all for reading my thoughts:)
  24. mfalc_charter_pilot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Maybe, and we should have seen a lot more of him throughout the film. I really though it was just too slow and Jar Jar binks wasn't needed. I thought the film was aimed too much at kids, when the core fan base is 20+. I thought TPM was a series of missed opportunities, and Lucas really could have used the help of another director and co-producer, to give it a more gritty feel. Too much CGI!!! Count dooko is good, however the light saber fight was appalling, considering what the Matrix and other films had achieved previously. Dooko should have got a bit of a beating, but Chris is too old and a younger actor could have been used. Maybe that master from Crouching Tiger hidden dragon? I just hop that Episode 3
    can make up for the first two films...unfortunately, no matrix style effects have been used for the light saber fights so I believe.
  25. Darth_Board Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 1
    Well, I think the real issue is that each of the three lesser prequel villians foreshadows Vader in some way:

    Maul showed us what it means to be a Sith. He was a clear vision of the Sith as twisted anti-Jedi, a horned devil wearing jet black Jedi cloak and robes with kind of an improper lightsaber, something out of the norm. Mostly, he was just meant to be Joe Sith. Frankly, not only was I not disappointed when he died I was fully expecting him to die in TPM; Maul was cool but he was no more than a plot point, just a revelation that the Sith were back and a fierce precursor to the fearsome visage of the dark armored former Chosen One.

    Dooku showed us that a Jedi could go dark. The Jedi of the days before the Republic fell could not conceive of a Jedi Knight, particularly one as venerable as Dooku going to the Dark Side. Mace said he couldn't be capable of attempted assassination but then learned he was capable of much more. Dooku is driven by power to the Dark Side, just as Anakin will be. It will fall to Anakin to take his place.

    Grievous will show us something else, a cyborg that uses Jedi fighting techniques and lightsabers. This may or may not have been his original intended purpose since all GWL told the artists that designed him was that he wanted a "droid general." Grievous' significance to the overall saga may end up being that he, as a cyborg Jedi-style fighter (although not a Sith himself) clearly has something in common with Vader.

    As to Maul, like I said, he was a plot point. He was cool but Dooku made a lot more sense as the instigator of the Clone Wars. Maul was arrogant and he paid the price. He should have seen it coming but he was more a force of nature than a character. He came, he fought, he left an impression. His job complete, he fell to pieces and out of the saga.
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