CT Should Disney release the unedited original trilogy on Blu-ray or not?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Carrie Walsh, Jan 17, 2014.

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  1. sharkymcshark Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2

    I don't know if that's particularly true to be honest. They could all be good films and you'd still have to show that Sidious is Palpatine, that Anakin is Vader, and that Luke and Leia are siblings.

    I've heard it said on here in several of the 'explain your viewing order' threads that when you choose which trilogy to start with, you pick which dramatic reveals you want to keep and which you want to spoil, which is true. So you've got to pick between I am your father, Luke and Leia are siblings and Vaders turn at the end against Anakin's fall to the dark side and the Chancellor being outed as a Sith Lord as your big twists.

    (Arguably the Machete Viewing Order preserves all of these in their own way but whenever you recommend that you get people coming out of the woodwork shouting TAHTS NOT HOW LUCAS WANTS YOU TO WATCH IT. As far as I'm concerned if Lucas wants to lock in the order I watch the films in he can also bring the popcorn and drinks when I watch them, otherwise I'll make my own mind up).
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  2. SithHorseman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2002
    star 1
    Good grief.

    I've no doubt he cares about his art, but at some point he's got to let go. I think that point is when it's released into the public realm. At that point, in a very real sense, it belongs to the world as a work of art. Like the Mona Lisa or Gone with the Wind. Altering the story, characters, actors, etc., post release is tantamount to defacing his own art. It's a bit like Tommy Boy and his pet:



    What I would tell George is that old maxim: If you love something, let it go.
    Last edited by SithHorseman, Jan 23, 2014
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  3. Barbecue17 Jedi Master

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    Nov 11, 2013
    star 2
    5 Internet points to the SithHorsemen for an insanely appropriate Tommy Boy reference!
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  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6

    That would depend on how it's done. If it's done in a way that GL is comfortable with, then there wouldn't be a problem. If he wouldn't be comfortable with it no matter how it's done, then I'm sure he's seen to it that they can't do it at all.
    It's possible, though, that he's allowed them to release a digitally restored HD incarnation of the original theatrical editions as some kind of collector's bonus material. Only time will tell!


    He doesn't.

    Fascinating.

    Even if, in a sense, I can agree with that sentiment, the art still belongs to the artist or whoever the artist has sold/given the art to. There are no rules to this, but as long as the artist owns the rights, he/she can do anything with the art.
    Lucas doesn't owe it to us to give us what we want. We came to him willingly, paying to see his movies. That was our choice. Now, he could be a nice guy and give you what you want out of gratitude, but he doesn't have to. That's his choice.

    ...or elevating it.

    From your point of view.

    That's what he's doing right now.





    I'm a willing fan
    /LM
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  5. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    Oh trust me, I'm just as annoyed as that type too. I respect if someone like the OOT but... ugh, those "GL raped my childhood" things....
  6. SithHorseman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2002
    star 1
    We're talking at cross purposes. You're talking about his legal rights, and I'm talking about something else. When Abraham Lincoln died, his Secretary of War famously said, "Now he belongs to the ages." I feel that along with Abraham Lincoln, the Mona Lisa, Gone With the Wind and, yes, Star Wars belong to the ages -- they belong to all of us in a metaphysical sense.

    These films -- in the form of their original release -- are important historical pieces. They changed the world, for goodness sake! And history itself is essentially being rewritten. Just from reading the posts on this forum, I can see that there is an entire generation of people that have not seen the original historical pieces. Practically speaking, they do not even have access to them. They only know that Greedo shot first, that Temuera Morrison voiced Boba Feet and that Hayden Christensen appeared as a force ghost in Return of the Jedi! It's unfortunate.

    I agree with you that, legally, George Lucas can do whatever he wants to his property including, but not limited to, urinating on the original celluloid source film of Star Wars. I think in another sense that when one releases their art into the public realm -- especially one widely regarded as a masterpiece -- his exclusive legal right to ownership in the art carries with it the moral obligation to preserve that art.

    I have no problem with George Lucas making a "director's cut" where he adds in unnecessary deleted scenes, changes actors, etc., so long as he preserves and makes equally available the original films. (And, in my view, that director's cut should be on bonus discs, not the other way around.) I know I don't have a legal right to force him to do things my way. That's just what I think he should do.

    I am thankful for this. And I hope the deal he struck with Disney gives Disney the right to release the films in their original versions so that they can rectify his mistake.

    And I wish George all the best. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy. I just disagree with how this issue is being handled.
  7. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    TheForce.net is actually pretty civil place compared to some of the vicious corners of the web. It's hard to take such a demand seriously when the argument consists of nothing but bashing George Lucas. At least members here have decency and can put forth their demands in a clear manner... no one has to be put down.

    To further exemplify the difference, look at how OriginalTrilogy cohesively explains their view:
    http://originaltrilogy.com/petition/

    ...Then compare to just about anything written on SaveStarWars:
    http://savestarwars.com
    It's hard to take seriously when written with such bias and with other people's words twisted around.
    Last edited by SlashMan, Jan 23, 2014
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  8. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    *Reads first link*
    Hey, they say this in a way that really draws out the good in OOT fans. They should release the OOT!

    *Reads second one*
    Lolz
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  9. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    star 4
    Yeah, no one could accuse zombie of mincing his words...
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    @SithHorseman
    I get what you're talking about, but as far as I'm concerned, the only moral obligation that anyone has is to honor whatever moral they believe in. We choose what's right and what's wrong.
    I'd also love to have access to these movies as they were upon their first release, but only as bonus content. To call them the official, definitive versions would be to spit on Lucas. He's made the movies what they are because that's what he wants them to be. It's his art and thus, his opinion on it must be honored.
    That's my moral stance.





    Spit is moist
    /LM
  11. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Original and Current versions. Boom. All that's needed.
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I'd be fine with something like that :)





    Star Wars is a fine thing
    /LM
  13. sharkymcshark Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2

    Has anyone in this thread actually asked for that?
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    SithHorseman just said that the current editions should be treated as bonus material, so yes, I'd say that that's what some, at least, are asking for.





    Star Wars is one
    /LM
  15. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    star 6
    Not necessarily. Did the extra material in the extended version of Fellowship of the Ring "not happen" because it's only on the extended versions? What about Newt's family going to the Derelict or the soldiers setting up the sentry guns in Aliens (but only in the director's cut)? This is a subject where "what actually happened" or "what's definitive" is almost meaningless, because the people who want to see the original versions just want to see them; it doesn't matter if they're "canon" or "definitive." If George Lucas personally considers them a work-in-progress, that's cool. The Blade Runner set had the workprint version of the film too.

    I think SithHorseman's suggestion probably has to do with how that's usually how films are released: the theatrical version, plus a 'director's cut' or something like that. Does it matter, though, which version gets 'top billing'? The newest versions could be buried as easter eggs on the disc but if Lucas wants them to be his canon, then they'd still be his canon. The quibbling over which version is 'on top' in a Bluray release just seems like a matter of semantics to me.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jan 23, 2014
  16. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yes, it does matter. I'm very interested in knowing which version is the official canon, because unless there's an artistic thought behind it, I don't want to have to choose.
    One vision, one work of art, one experience. That's how it should be. If Scott says "Choose the one you like", I say "Why?". If his answer is "Because that's part of the experience", then I can accept it.
    It has nothing to do with what "actually happened" and everything to do with the artist's intent.





    Intents matter
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Jan 23, 2014
  17. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Perhaps I was unclear. I'm saying, even if the sets said "Star Wars as it was originally released! Plus the George Lucas 2015 Director's Cut!", if George wanted those director's cuts to be 'canon' then they would be, regardless of which order the packaging listed them/how they were advertized.



    And, doesn't art always have some element of context and audience-response? I can understand wanting to know which version most closely fulfills the creator's vision, but that's not the only way to appreciate art.

    EDIT. What I mean by that last part is... do we really need Ridley Scott, or anyone else, to delineate the boundaries of 'the Blade Runner experience'? And even if he tried to, isn't "choose the one you like" - or more properly, "discover the bits you like, even if they're in different versions" - what we're going to do regardless, even if we can track which version(s) best represent the artist's (current or past) vision? Or is liking a thing dependent on its official stamp of current approval?
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jan 24, 2014
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  18. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    No, you were not unclear. What I'm saying is that if one version is the official canon, then that should be made clear. "Director's Cut" doesn't sound like official canon to me. That's what it should mean, but the way the term has been used over the years has changed its impact.
    What you suggest there would only cause confusion. That's why GL would never do that. He wants people to know which version is the "real" one, hence his adamant focus on the current versions.
    I stand by my view that if the original theatrical cuts are to be released, they should be treated as a special bonus release.





    Star Wars is original
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Jan 24, 2014
  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    star 4
    TBH, I don't think there's enough 'canon' discrepancies between the versions to make it an issue, anyway. Anakin's ghost is about the only change which directly impacts the storyline, as there's implications regarding the nature of his redemption. Everything else is largely cosmetic (McDiarmid as Palps), minor dialogue changes which don't really change anything, or additions which have long been accepted as canon anyway (Jabba in SW/ANH).

    There simply isn't any reason not to release the OOT in a decent format, plenty of reasons to do so, and I'm sure most who want to see it properly couldn't care less about canon. If it was a case of reverting back to the OOT and never releasing the various SE's again, then fair enough, but that's never going to happen.
    I really don't understand why anyone (other than GL, but that's a different matter) would object to the OOT being released, regardless of what their actual actual opinion of it is. You don't have to buy it, you don't have to watch it. It's not as if it contains anything that would somehow upset the SW franchise - it's been seen by millions already.

    I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. If the content was the best quality possible, they could release it in brown paper bags crudely labelled in pencil with 'The Classic Star Wars Trilogy - WORK IN PROGRESS' for all I care.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Jan 24, 2014
  20. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 3
    I'm still wondering if the OOT even exists in a useable master after all this time. When the did the SEs, the masters were heavily decayed, so now they must be even further lost.

    So yeah, this is kind of a huge deal.
  21. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Given that a few minor dialogue changes had to be made simply because the originals weren't up to scratch, yeah, it's a worry.

    I suspect it's not quite as dire a situation as zombie makes out, though - complete versions of films from the 1930s and earlier have been beautifully restored after being thought completely lost altogether. Even the OT deleted scenes on the Blu-Ray set looked better than I was expecting, and given that they weren't originally intended to be seen by the public, you'd think LFL has managed to preserve a few prints of the entire films that are acceptable for a home video release, or could be made so. A few scratches or audio pops wouldn't bother me. The 2006 DVDs were simply lazy, that was the problem - there wasn't anything 'wrong' with the masters they were struck from, it's just that they were in an outdated, inferior format that doesn't cut it these days, given how many people have TVs that show up the clear inferiority.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Jan 24, 2014
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  22. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    With all respect to fans and their preference of what they think Star Wars is and where they started loving the saga - remember it's a 37 year old franchise that started somewhere... I grew up with the OT and it was HUGE!!!

    People will want to watch their six part CGI'd Saga, people will want to watch either of the three versions of the Special Edition entries - but before anyone says how dated it is, how it messes up canon and what is what - remember this...

    If you were there between 1977-1983, then you'll know how important, ground-breaking, milestones of cinematic history and overall how many people it affected - it was a far bigger cultural phenomenon than what came after it and it was all done by word of mouth and not via a Google search or fanpage. And most of all - how many from that generation who want to see it restored to it's former glory. There are far more than people needing Episode IV-VI than anything else SW related. If you grow up with the SE's/PT and TCW - love it, talk about it, but show some respect - which movies came first and which had the bigger and less divided fanbase? Which movies had queues of people waiting for almost hours to see a screening and then queuing again to go and see it on the same day?

    Fans can have their CGI fest and altered saga, but don't discount that more people in the fanbase and general public want the practical effects, matte lines, static latex masks and glitches in rotoscoped lightsabers. That is what they grew up with when SW was in it's hey-day and is far more celebrated opposed to the last 17 years of what has been offered.

    And whilst we are here - if you still don't agree - go and brush up on your cinematic history (pre-1990) on what has never been altered but still classed and an amazing milestone of cinema. Start with Fritz Lang's Metropolis (1926) and then move forward and finish at Jaws (1975) - all dated in some respects but those type of films are more celebrated in their original incarnations.
    Last edited by fuzzbox77, Jan 24, 2014
  23. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    @Darth_Nub
    You do have a way with words :)
    I definitely agree with you! When I say "canon" in this context, though, I'm not just referring to the plot. The audiovisual canon is just as important, IMO. In that department, a vast amount of tweaking has been done.

    As I mentioned earlier, I, too, would love to have access to the first theatrical editions in the best quality possible. I'd be very interested in watching all six of them in a row and see what it's like.





    Movies are interesting
    /LM
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  24. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    They couldn't use the home video prints as they were deteriorated also. So much excess handling from the prints for subsequent re-releases whether pan and scan, widescreen, digitally remastered meant that they would be unusable in the realms of a re-issue. The 1994 Remastered releases were the last time the films were available in their unaltered version where as the 1995 THX releases were censored (Blast hits to troops/officers) with an altered audio mix from varied sources. And the only reason why the VHS counterparts looked better in some ways were digital colour balancing and audio mix compression isolated and then beefed up to hide the hissing.

    But indeed - the 1992 digitally remastered Laserdisc transfers (released in 1993) were sloppy and lazy.
  25. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    In that respect, the later versions would have to take precedence in 'canon' - but again, I don't think most who really want to see the OOT properly presented would care too much about what 'officially' happened. It's just about seeing the original versions as they were first presented to the world.

    The silly thing is, there's probably many out there who take the 2004 DVD cuts (Hayden as Anakin, McDiarmid as Palps) as their preferred versions, yet refuse to accept the notorious "NOOOO!!!" from Vader in the 2011 version of ROTJ - so then it's not even OOT vs SE.

    The debate shouldn't be about whether or not the OOT should ever be properly released at all - there isn't really a reasonable argument against it - it should be about how and what version. I doubt anyone would have a problem with it being presented as a qualified bonus feature, but which version of SW/ANH?
    The 1977 cut without 'Episode IV: A New Hope' included in the opening scroll, the original voice for Aunt Beru, plus a few different sound effects and a couple of different audio takes?
    Do you include "Close the blast doors" and Threepio's explanation of the DS schematic or not?
    Is it "Blast it, Biggs, where are you?" or is it "Blast it, Wedge, where are you?"?

    Minor differences - but differences nonetheless.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Jan 24, 2014
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