Discussion Should ep VII (or a VI - VII intermediate series) address the Endor Holocaust issue?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Darth Valkyrus, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. DarthMateous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 4
    No. That would be boring and too political. Next.
  2. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    As far as I'm aware, us Earthlings have never encountered Jedi or Sith, and yet we have a concept of magic.

    It'd be weird if they had a concept of "gods", but not a concept of "supernatural powers".
  3. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    He must have missed the Ewoks reaction to the whole flying chair fiasco.
  4. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    People have a natural tendency to believe in stuff that makes no sense. If actually confronted with something genuinely nonsensical, however, we tend to rationalize it. We're crazy aren't we. 8-}
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 24, 2013
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  5. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Or maybe they assumed it was a test. Or maybe their culture demanded that they give him one, no matter what he said he wanted. Or maybe there society had more benevalnt gods, thus they had no real concept of a wrathful god. Or maybe 3PO didnt translate that line exactly as Luke intended. Or maybe their gods where more warriors than magic users.

    Really though I wouldnt put too fine a point on this moment, it was just Lucas logic being more concerned with plot direction than making sense logically. He wanted Luke to levaitate 3PO to show off Luke being more powerful, so it happened.
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 24, 2013
  6. Darthchrontis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    I think with songs such as yub nub, they are quite obviously a highly evolved culture:-

    here follows a rough translation of Yub Nub.

    Freedom, we got freedom;
    And now that we can be free,
    Come on and celebrate.

    Power, we got power;
    And now that we can be free,
    It's time to celebrate.

    Celebrate the freedom;
    Celebrate the power;
    Celebrate the glory;
    Celebrate the love.

    Power, we got power;
    And now that we can be free,
    It's time to celebrate.

    *Celebrate the light; (Freedom!)
    Celebrate the might; (Power!)
    Celebrate the fight; (Glory!)
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.

    Glory, we found glory.
    The power showed us the light,
    And now we all live free.

    *Celebrate the light; (Freedom!)
    Celebrate the might; (Power!)
    Celebrate the fight; (Glory!)
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.
    Celebrate the love.

    Obviously this shows us all they are capable of conceptualising much of what we do. I don't think they would be celebrating if there was a K2 event looming.
    Last edited by Darthchrontis, Apr 24, 2013
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  7. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Aww, where's the fun in those explanations? I want my Glaznak the Pudding God! :p
    Ryus likes this.
  8. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    [face_thinking]

    I would say that the fact that I never thought of that myself up until this was just mentioned here, Would have me bet that they will be banking on that same thing for the general public-and will not mention it in episode VII...

    How's that for a boring, straightforward response?!?
    Last edited by DARTH_BELO, Apr 24, 2013
  9. Tornado Wrangler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2013
    star 1

    Today at school, we had to administer one of the STAAR tests (the end-of-year standardized state tests in Texas), which basically means I was staring blankly at students taking a test for 3 hours. So I began to ponder about this again.

    The day-length issue popped into my head and I realized that, duh, geosynchronous orbit altitude is dependent on how fast the planet (or moon) rotates, as you stated. Completely missed that in my first post. Now, being a moon of a gas giant, the Endor moon should be tidally locked. The same side of it should always face Endor. This means its rotation length will match its revolution around the planet. Jupiter's closest moon, Io, orbits in less than 2 days, so it would be quite possible for Endor moon to have a rotation period similar to Earth's.

    However, the screen shot from the movie poses a few issues.

    First is scale. The Death Star II's diameter is listed on wookieepdia as 900km. That should be almost 1/5th of the moon's diameter. Judging from the picture, it might only be 1/50th the diameter or smaller. But, since neither the diameter of the moon or the Death Star are quoted in the movie, it's up for debate. Let's put the moon at Earth's diameter: 12700km, since it's surface gravity is similar to Earth's and we aren't given any reason to believe it to have a higher density. It would be possible to take the image from the movie and complete the circle from the arc of the Endor moon shown to determine the ratio between their diameters, but lets just put it at 1/50th. 12700/50 is about 250km.

    A sphere with a diameter of 250km would have a surface area of 196,350sqkm. We dont' know how thick the shell is, so lets put it at 0.5m. So, the outer shell of the Death Star II is about 98 cubic kilometers. That would be a like a cube about 4.5km on each side. If it had the density of steel, that would make it 7.7×10^14 kg. A few minutes of research allowed me to calculate the average density of today's largest buildings to be about 0.3g/cm3, about a third the density of water. If we put the interior of the Death Star at this density, that would add another 2.45×10^18 kg, completely dwarfing the mass of the shell to a rounding error.

    So if we use the 2.45x10^18kg, for the mass of the Death Star, that puts it at only 0.2% the mass of Ceres. The size of comparable mass asteroid would be about 130km in diameter, about 80 miles.

    That's pretty big, and my math might be off as well. (Doing this pretty fast.)

    But wait, a big difference between the Endor moon getting hit by a 80 mile diameter asteroid and the Death Star exploding several hundred miles above the surface is speed.

    The energy released from an asteroid impact comes from its mass times its speed. Asteroids that hit other bodies are going very fast because they are orbiting the sun at different rates. This is so fast as to be measured in miles or kilometers per second. The recent russian meteor was going at 18.6km/s. The fragments of the Death Star II will just be falling to the ground. They will not reach speeds to burn or streak through the atmosphere. They will just fall due to gravity, slowing to a terminal velocity when they hit the atmosphere, and then plunk to the ground

    No big impact because they aren't going fast!

    Wish I would have realized that before doing all those calculations.
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  10. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The Death Star II collapse was a controlled explosion obviously.
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  11. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Gary M. Sarli, accepting, I presume, that the DS2 has parked itself as an geosynchronous (or "Endor-synchronous", I guess) satellite of the moon, extrapolated the following figures:

    Endor diameter: 10,400 km (radius 5,200 km)
    DS2 diameter: 160 km
    DS2 orbital radius: 7,330.9 km
    DS2 altitude: 2,130.9 km

    From what I understand, Sarli chose to consider the shot of the moon and the DS2 from the cockpits of the Rebel ships emerging from hyperspace as being subject to some type of hyperspatial distortion. Frustratingly, the preview ends there, before he gets into how the station imploded after its explosion, sparing Endor the "holocaust".

    Again, no one has this article? I'm dying to read it. :(
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 24, 2013
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I see that shot as having the issue that the DS2 is in front of the Forest Moon, thus- since they're spheres, and they're already quite close, it'll look much larger relative to the Moon than it is.

    This was the shot used
    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]


    Given that the Forest Moon is the furthest out of Endor's moons- it doesn't necessarily have to be tidally locked. And indeed, it's been brought up (I think on Irregular Webcomic) that it poses problems for life on the moon, if it is.

    The most recent EU sources put the size of the Forest Moon at 4900 km diameter (maybe an error was made and diameter should have been radius)?
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    After a bit of searching, I've managed to track down which strip references it:

    http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/165.html

    However- it should be noted that the Moon can't be orbiting Endor that closely, otherwise the planet would be visible in the movie during the space battle shots.

    So, a slightly further out, non-locked Forest Moon, that is nevertheless still close enough for this pic (from Illustrated Star Wars Universe) to be correct, should work:

    Show Spoiler
    [IMG]


    I'd say the complaint about the moon being dangerously close to the planet, is more valid in the case of Yavin.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 25, 2013
  14. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Rebel chemtrails dissolved the debris.
  15. darthYENIK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 2
    This is Star Wars. After the Lando and the Falcon blew out of that exhaust port and the Death Star went boom, the remaining Rebel ships blew apart the large pieces of debris, to prevent the destruction of the forest moon.

    It may not be the official explanation, since there won't but it'll help you sleep at night.
  16. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    A-frakking-men!
  17. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Saxton is a biased source. He wrote the ICS stuff deliberately to give vs Warsies the tech edge over just about every other fictional universe, esp Trek.

    Multiple gigaton blasts from the guns of snub fighters my Jedi butt... :rolleyes:
  18. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    I don't know, is it such a bad thing for Star Wars to have a tech edge over Star Trek? ;)

    I mean, I spent some time looking through this website where people debate which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek, and aside from the fact that the whole place had an air of the very creepy, it was disheartening that people feel the need to defend Star Trek against Star Wars. I mean, they took the whole thing so very seriously. How can you take Star Trek seriously?
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Apr 28, 2013
  19. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    There's nothing whatsoever wrong with Trek. It's a perfectly valid universe. Trek and Wars are two different things: the former is sci-fi, and the later sci-fantasy.

    The issue of "vs" is an entirely different matter. The Warsies at SDN don't argue honorably. They rewrite the rules constantly to disallow things that make a strong showing for Trek and promote BS like the "gigaton starfighter" crap that Saxton deliberately made up for the ICS to take advantage of the loose canon rules for the SW universe.''

    In other words, they cheat. Repeatedly. Blatantly. Deliberately.
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  20. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    IIRC Saxton's ICS figures were based on the (now defunct) Turbolaser Commentaries website, which were themselves extrapolations of statements about an ISD being able to slag a planetary surface to 1 meter in less than a day.

    The 200 GT thing was actually a high end... but even low end stuff calculated off the Hoth asteroid field vaporizations of asteroids gave something like 1 - 2 GT per shot. Which was aleady considered better than Trek in the vs debate forums, but they weren't satisfied with that, and they shot for high end, and then Saxton got to write the ICS. If there were any doubt about motivation, check out the shoutouts in the inlay.

    Trust me, at the time I was on the boards, like Spacebattles.com, where VS debating was a major part of it, and all hell broke loose when the ICS came out. Whoooo that was an interesting time.

    Aaaah nostalgia... anyone here ever heard of the infamous "Eclipse thread"?
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Apr 28, 2013
  21. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I've always found the whole debate to be ridiculous to be honest. Some fanboys seem unable to disentangle "strength of fictional military" from "quality of fiction".

    I'm certain the characters in Battlefield Earth would obliterate the jury from 12 Angry Men in a fight, doesn't make the former the better film. :p
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  22. WatTamborWoo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2011
    star 3
    Could be a spin-off movie. 5 hour 3-D IMAX slo-mo epic of the destruction of The forest moon of Endor.
    Admiral Ackbar "It's a blast!".
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  23. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Those calculations were always suspect, and based off of weak data and assumptions. And never justified the high power calculations for snub fighter weapons, as the Destroyers were using main guns.

    And a squadron of 30 Trek universe starships slagged 30% of a planet's crust in less then 2 minutes with a single combined volley (DS9 "The Die is Cast"). But the Warsies invoked their universal "get out of jail free" cheat by claiming that "dialogue doesn't count" then invoked a BS analysis that they claimed showed no such damage.

    Only by the rabid Warsies. Darkstar took them apart at the seams time and again.

    But enough about "vs". SDN cheated like dogs, declared victory, and went home. That's all needs be said.
  24. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Ewoks? What Ewoks? Is this tantamount to Holocaust denial?

    Seriously, let's keep this in the past...no references to such inanity.
  25. Starkeiller Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
    star 4
    Way I see it, only thing wrong with Star Trek as opposed to Star Wars is that the evil authoritarian state are the good guys in it as opposed to the bad guys, which is why I find these arguments slightly unsettling. I myself am a fan of Voyager, but that's the one with the outlaws, and I figure that's what I'd want to be if the future turns out like Star Trek. I don't really care about these supernally pointless arguments, "what's more powerful, a blaster or a phaser?" or "photon torpedoes or turbolasers?" Such debates seem exceptionally silly to me, and that website creeps me out. But I do believe that Star Wars, unlike Star Trek, has an exceptionally wholesome message: fight tyranny, blow up the Death Star. And then party like it's the Stone Age. [face_peace]