Should income-tax be abolished?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by stevo, Sep 5, 2002.

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  1. shocktrooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 3
    The Government eventually gets all your Income anyway , If you spend it they get it, if not from you then the person you purchase from and so on, so the only way for them not to get it would be for you not to spend it, so what would be the point in you getting income if you didn't spend it.

    So Income Tax only speeds up the circulation of money to the government by taking it before you earn it instead of after you spend it. What I'm saying is technically Income Tax is not needed for revenue as they will get it from you eventually anyway. Income Tax serves them to get your money sooner rather then later.


    Make sense?
  2. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Not really shock, since if i buy a product, wont most of the money used to pay go to the people who had a hand in making it? Wont they save it or spend it on other products where again the money goes to the people who made those products. So unless we buy something from the government... Yeah, if we would 'buy' roads, then yes, the government gets allot of the cash later.
  3. BroodMcEto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    star 4
    Tax is a necessary evil. Ever driven through Louisiana? Yeah, you'd be begging for a higher road tax. Know anyone who's served in the military? Cut out taxes and you cut out their jobs. Ever wanted to work for free? Guess you'd really be bummed if you had to defend a country for free, right?

    I agree that it sucks to give a government money when you would rather have it yourself, but look at the overall situation. How many college students are here on the boards? How many of them receive some sort of government grant? Yep, tax dollars at work. We cry when we hear that it costs about $1mil everytime an F-15 goes up in the air, but everyone sure is happy when we take down the enemy in the same jet, right?

    When you complain about taxes, you unknowingly become a bit hypocritical. You love watching that show COPS, right? Well guess what, those cops are being paid by money from taxes. You want your kids to have a good education, right? But you don't really want to pay for a private school, right? Guess what, taxes are paying our teachers.

    Ever not have health insurance and have an accident? Guess what, taxes made (most) hospitals available. Granted, more hospitals are privately owned, but the government makes sure that the treatment you get is healthy. You ever want to take a drug that isn't approved by the FDA? Not me, bro.

    Yes, sometimes our tax dollars are mis-spent, but overall, I'd say we're doing alright, especially when I'm inside my air conditioned home watching CNN do stories on countries where kids play in the street with rocks and look like they've not bathed in some time.

    Now, let's take a look at what people spend money on, where the big bucks are made. What if on every entertainment item (books, music, sporting events, movies, etc.) we paid a tax? What if that guy who just signed on to that pro team for $15mil over 3 years gave up 50% to the government? What if we put our money towards something that actually bettered our lives rather than entertained us?

    I once tried to make a point to a man about pro sports. I told him that we should spend less money on our athletes and more on our doctors, nurses, police, teachers, military personnel, etc. His response? "Yeah, but they can't kick a 50yd field goal!" Yeah, because when my life depends on it, I want the doctor to go kick a field goal so we'll win the game. Pffft.

    Getting rid of taxes is a nice idea, but then no one really wants to move to central america either?
  4. shocktrooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 3
    The point I was making Enforcer is that the Government has it's finger in every pie.
    They get Tax from your Income, U get taxed when you buy something, the person who sold u the Item pays income Tax and Tax on that Item when they purchased it from the wholesaler, the wholesaler pays Income Tax and Tax on the Item when they purchased it from the manufacturer, The Manufacturer pays Income Tax and Tax on the Raw materials he used to make the Item you purchased.

    Believe me if you spend it they get your money sooner or later, Income Tax just makes it sooner. Don't believe them because they claim they don't have money for new roads etc. I guarantee your Federal, State and County Politicians get a catered lunch everyday.
  5. Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 6
    The income tax in the U.S. is far lower than that of many other countries - it can get as high as 80%. :eek:

    GO 'CLONES!
  6. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    My point is not that the United States government needs income-tax to function. My point is that the principle they are using to accumulate money is evil. It doesn't matter how much other country's income tax is-- they're not as good as us.
  7. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    BroodMcEto
    Yes we all agree taxes are needed for the military, police, FDA, and roads (although I suppose pacifists would argue about the military). You're presenting a bit of a straw-man argument there.

    Your points about schools and health care seem to aim a bit towards socialism. Not everything paid for by taxes couldn't be taken care of by the private sector, possibly even better.


    "When you complain about taxes, you unknowingly become a bit hypocritical."

    How about if I just complain about taxes being wasted?

    "Yes, sometimes our tax dollars are mis-spent, but overall, I'd say we're doing alright"

    Come on. I won't say that's naive, and you are entitled to your opinion, but I think we're living in a fantasy world if we think government waste isn't at a disturbingly high level. Here's a neat little slide show about government waste.


    "especially when I'm inside my air conditioned home watching CNN do stories on countries where kids play in the street with rocks and look like they've not bathed in some time. "

    That's fine, but why do you think the government is responsible for that??? You credit them over the very people who built this nation from the ground up?

    I'm not sure where you're going with people spending money on entertainment. If anyone, like the sports nut you talked to, puts entertainment at the top of their list of priorities, that's their problem. What does that have to do with our tax burden being too high?
  8. BroodMcEto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    star 4
    Darth Fierce
    Taxes get wasted all the time, I'll agree to that. I'm trying to say that if we got rid of our taxes, we'd be worse off than where we are.

    Thanks for not calling me naive. I think of myself as anything but. Tax dollars get misspent. I see it everyday. Distubingly high? Maybe. Maybe if you consider we waste more tax dollars than many countries make, yeah. But considering we have one of the best economies in the world, I'd say we're doing fine. Yeah, we could clean it up a bit, but where would you start?

    The government is responsible for my quality of life, at least to some degree. I was schooled publicly and attended a state funded college. I served in the military. The government isn't responsible for my whole life, but they played a big part of it. Taxes pave the way for our quality of life. Why do corperations prosper? Tax breaks usually. They spend less on taxes and more on R&D and labor. That's so they can put out a good product or service for us to use. If the government didn't give businesses tax breaks, then a lot of the businesses we rely on wouldn't be here. Those companies give us our way of life. No, the government doesn't directly affect certain aspects of my life, but it does affect me indirectly. Military contracts... Sometimes the government makes decisions based on economics rather than product. Two fighters are made by two sepearate companies. One of those companies is doing well, while the other company is not. The company doing better puts out a better plane, but the other company gets the contract. Why? Shoot, I'd buy the better product, right? Well, the government wanted to keep an active compitition so that next time it was time to shop for fighters, there were still at least two companies to choose from. Therefore the government kept thousands of people employed just by making a choice. Quality of life was kept intact for both of the companies.

    People live in government subsidized housing, sometimes referred to as project housing. This lets lower income people live in a home rather than on the streets. Hard to get a job when you have no home. Tax money on housing helps promote the economy.

    Besides, my point in the "especially when I'm inside my air conditioned home watching CNN do stories on countries where kids play in the street with rocks and look like they've not bathed in some time. " comment was more to show that other countries governments aren't doing well. I'm sure that 3rd world countries get taxed heavier than we do (percent wise), but no one really talks about the injustice of that, now do they? Not here in America, anyway.

    I'm sorry if the entertainment statement was a bit vague. My point was that anytime we see a star/athlete get paid some huge amount of money, we don't really blink an eye, but when congress votes themselves a pay raise, we're all ticked off. Even if their combined income wouldn't support half of the money spent (wasted) in professional sports.
    Yes you can tell me that we don't pay the salaries of those people, but guess what, you do. You go watch the movie, you buy the action figures, you buy tickets to the game, you watch the super bowl, you actively support each entertainer (athlete, actor, etc.) by actively participating in these activities. I'd like to see what we spend on entertainment versus taxes. I know I spend a lot on entertainment. DVDs, Games, Toys, movies, all that. Hell, I'll probably be the first to say I spend more on entertainment than on taxes. So you see, my point is that maybe if we took a little different look at things, we'd understand that taxes help us more than we think.

    The private sector could probably do a better job at things than the government, but I don't know of too many that would be benificial. The problem with that is that since this is a capitalistic society, the private sector is going to try to get the most out of it's money. That means paying less for the laborers than necessary, that means spending less than you absolutely have to, then turning around and charging as much as poss
  9. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Ever play the game, Sim City? A city, state, country needs to generate income in order to maintain itself. I think reform, as it is seen by Washington, is too little too late. I think this country needs a complete economic overhauls, beginning with its taxation structuring.

    As democratically unappealing as it may appear, I think we need a straight income tax per employed person as a basis for the whole thing. From there we incorporate guidelines to lower the taxation of individuals who would not be able to sustain themselves with their net annual income--tax "breaks" if you will. We then need to wholly eliminate tax incentives and breaks for high income businesses and persons.

    From there, we should get into the reallocating of tax expenditures.

    But, then again... I'm no accountant or bureaucrat. ;)
  10. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    SimCity's cool. :)

    BroodMcEto

    Thanks for not calling me naive. I think of myself as anything but."

    That was badly worded on my part. I meant that while the general viewpoint that government isn't wasteful is naive, I knew you weren't purporting that.

    "Yeah, we could clean it up a bit, but where would you start? "

    In a commentary by Radley Balko last month, it was cited that government accountants lost track of $17.1 billion in 2001, that $12.1 billion in improper Medicare payments were made, and the budgets for the U.S. Post Office and Amtrak - both arguably horrible failures - were greatly increased. So, perhaps running things more efficiently and more thoroughly would be a good place to start, even before considering cutting spending anywhere.

    I understand the role government plays in our quality of life, but they do it with our money. Remember, government for the people, of the people, and by the people.

    "Besides, my point... was more to show that other countries governments aren't doing well. I'm sure that 3rd world countries get taxed heavier than we do (percent wise), but no one really talks about the injustice of that, now do they?"

    How well would our government be faring if they didn't have the seemingly infinite amount of tax revenue to rely upon, which the third-world government don't have, regardless of a higher tax rate?

    "anytime we see a star/athlete get paid some huge amount of money, we don't really blink an eye, but when congress votes themselves a pay raise, we're all ticked off."

    Well, I don't like the large entertainment salaries either. But the thing is, people voluntarily pay money to those people, and so it's tough to begrudge them of it. That's not true of congressional pay raises.


    "The problem with that is that since this is a capitalistic society, the private sector is going to try to get the most out of it's money."

    Maybe, but don't discount the open-market competition factor. When money's being made, someone will always come along offering a better product for less to take some of the market share.

    "Move to a third world country and let me know how well you're doing there, under their government. "

    But there's a lot more behind their problems than bad government.

    "The real question isn't the abolishment of taxes, but how to reform our tax system"

    Well, yes. :)
  11. BroodMcEto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    star 4
    It's nice to know, Fierce, that we're both on the same side of the argument, although we have different views on it.

    So, since we volunteer to give our entertainers (I don't completely agree with this, but for simplicity, I do agree), should we voluntarily come up with a tax system, a pay as you go type deal? Then we'd be volunteering for it, therefore more willing to pay (according to the logic) more taxes? I just think our priorities are a little off, when we see nothing wrong with paying an athlete a lot of money to throw/hit/block a ball/puck/punch when it has no real value in our society, other than pure entertainment. So in my opinion, we're voluntarily wasting our money, whereas the government is forcefully wasting our money, in your opinion, no?

    Things can always be better and things can always run more efficiently. The problem with our tax system is that our nation is so big, and our system is in such need of an overhaul that to overhaul it might bring down some of our economic infrastructure. Thirty years from now we may be done with reforming the tax system, but during those thirty years, a lot of injustices would be done, I believe. Heck, there are injustices now. At age 18, you can vote, but you can't drink alcohol (in most states) until you're 21. You can die for your country, but you can't buy alcohol. Government workers are paid by tax dollars, but yet, taxes are taken out of their checks. If you have enough money, you can hire someone to figure out your taxes so you pay as little as possible (nothing wrong with a good deal), so the people who can afford to pay a lot of taxes don't, but the little guy struggling from month to month to keep his family in the house has to pay a lot of taxes, but can't hire anyone to get him the loopholes.

    I think tax reform is a great idea, but how can it be done, or if it ever can be done?
  12. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    BroodMcEto
    I think we do agree. I probably steered everything off the topic of abolishing tax when I made the points that we're overtaxed, and that there's a lot of waste.

    We should be obligated to pay tax, no doubt. But if people have enough excess afterwards to fund cushy lifestyles for our entertainers, that's life - or freedom, actually. Bad priorities? Probably, yeah.

    Yeah the nation has grown... but government doesn't have to grow with it. I don't think size is the problem (no double entandre intended). And the complete overhaul that's needed would probably be traumatic. Sucks. :( :)
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