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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Should Jedi be allowed to have relationships?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by enigmaticjedi, Jul 26, 2015.

  1. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Pro: As we have seen with Anakin, sometimes it can be unwise and even unhealthy for some Jedi to be forced to suppress feelings they have for family and loved ones. After all, according to Self-Determination Theory (Deci and Ryan), relatedness is one of the essential psychological needs that needs to be fulfilled for healthy living.

    Con: Yet, at the same time, Sidious used Anakin's relationships as leverage to manipulate him into betraying the Jedi and pledging himself to the dark side. If saving Padme from dying weren't an issue for Anakin, it is arguable that he might not have joined Sidious at all. After all, since Jedi are so powerful, it might be for the greater good to prevent others from using loved ones as leverage.

    What do you think?
     
    DaffyTheWizard and The Sith Camp like this.
  2. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Marriage, yes because if one is permitted it and it's a *healthy* bond it can stablise, anchor, and even heal the parties. If Anakin had this your Con wouldn't have been near as easy and likely wouldn't have happened at all. Padme wasn't the problem, Anakin's emotional instability, immaturity, and selfishness were.
     
  3. Obi-John Kenobi

    Obi-John Kenobi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2012
    I generally liked the way it was handled in the films. Jedi are expected to be selfless and serve the greater good. Not devote the time that would be needed to raise a family/make a happy marriage. There's a spiritual component of being totally immersed in the faith required by the Jedi.
     
  4. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2015

    The thing is the Jedi Philosophy is more encompassing Compassion as the 'True Love' and well ... whilst its good to care about those you love - still the attachment problem ... I honestly still wonder WHY the Force didn't 'check' Anakin for deviousness given he was full of it and he was far from the ideal Hero even if he was the Chosen One ... I mean even in many films and franchises - why is the Hero or Chosen One always someone who if they aren't arrogant, then they simply have an anger problem - they get angry too easily ... I'm not asking for a stone-cold robot like Arnold the T-800 but still ...


    True - Compassion - and hence Qui-Gon Jinn was NOT A SITH in the end as he did explain to become a Force Ghost or to achieve TRUE IMMORTALITY one must be selfless and compassionate - and because Sith are violent, angry and selfish they will never be able to achieve it ...

    Atleast the Jedi having relationships seems more feasible compared to the Sith? I mean imagine IF the Sith had relationships - which they did BUT guess what? In the end Sith will just end up being angry, violent (hence Darth Plagueis's novel having a chapter stating a Cycle of Endless Violence), treacherous and selfish ... I mean whilst Anakin may have indirectly killed off Padme - BUT he did regret it and he always loved Padme in his heart and later he redeemed himself - he did save and protect Luke ... and even admitting Leia was right ... NOW with Palpatine - well in the Darth Plagueis novel he murders House Palpatine in cold cold blood - being 'STRONG ENOUGH TO WARP BULK HEADS AND THROW BODIES ACROSS THE CABIN ...' and claiming how he became a 'STORM! DEATH ITSELF!' and never regretting it ... hence Palpatine 'NEVER GAVE A FORCE!' about anyone or anything ... pretty sure any other Sith like him would have 'NEVER GAVE A FORCE!' about anyone or anything ...

    Hey also - didn't Ki-Adi-Mundi also be an exception as part of his custom he had to have several wives? I mean he didn't become Darth Adi-Mundi or something ... and well there you go so why not?
     
  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    It's a very difficult question.

    Ideally, Jedi would be allowed to walk their own path and figure things out for themselves through experience.

    But when the consequences for that freedom can affect an entire galaxy, one can see the wisdom in restrictions.

    Personally, I don't think the kind of relationships you're talking about are consistent with what the Jedi are trying to be, what they should try to be.
     
  6. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2015

    Well - atleast a better chance of somewhat 'success' and well 'love and compassion' nevertheless eh? I mean - compared to the Sith - put it this way - even if Anakin was dismissed from the Jedi Council and FORCED to retire or such - he would still love Padme and Luke and Leia very much and it was just his jealousy, impulsiveness and anger that led to otherwise least of which he gets 'baked' alive on Mustafar - and he by default WOULD NEVER DARE TO KILL his family in a sense - putting aside his confusion and mislead insecurities ... whereas Palpatine on the other hand - he murdered his family at 17 years old and the slaughter of House Palpatine? A bloodbath he never 'gave a FORCE' about ... and well Jedi atleast 'have to GIVE A FORCE' about life and that in the equation being basically compassion and selflessness and still - a better chance of success and such compared to the Sith - whereas the Sith they are selfish and angry and violent and in the case of ones like Palpatine who 'never gave a Force' about anyone they cared about lest even loyal subordinates hence likewise ... I mean a Jedi even if they were in a relationship or they got dismissed - its not like they by default would commit what Palpatine had done eh? I mean whilst Anakin strangled Padme in rage - likewise he did regret it deeply later; whereas Palpatine was just all the more fired up and pissed off after the slaughter of House Palpatine until Darth Plaguies pretty much told him to shut up by the lines 'careful BOY ... YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE WITH THE POWER TO KILL IN THIS ROOM...' and later when he FORCED Palpatine to recall - well total recall exact details on how he exactly slaughtered House Palpatine to the point he really 'never gave a Force' in the end ...
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Anakin "suppressing feelings" isn't really an argument in favor of Jedi having relationships. It's not necessarily healthy for anyone, including non-Jedi, to act on every emotion. It's especially not healthy for Jedi given the extra power they have. That's the reason Palpatine was able to manipulate Anakin--because Anakin thought he was entitled to act on every emotion he had--and that would be a problem even if the Jedi allowed Anakin to marry Padme and remain a Jedi.

    Yes, we do have a need for "relatedness," but relatedness does not mean marriage or monogamous romantic relationships. I think the Jedi had plenty of relatedness within their Order.

    Repeating a bit of what Obi-John already said: the Jedi are expected to serve the greater good of the entire galaxy. That is the decision made regarding the best use of their powers, and I agree with it.

    Is that ultimate goal compatible with marriage and family? Ideally every romantic relationship would be healthy, the spouse or partner would fully understand what it means to be a Jedi, and the Jedi would have no problem dedicating him or herself to serving the greater good of the galaxy while raising a family.

    But at some point in the Order's history, the Jedi decided that this ideal was the exception and not the norm, and the usual result of mixing marriage/family with being a Jedi was more harmful than beneficial.

    I'm not entirely opposed to Jedi being allowed to marry, but I think the lessons on emotional control, and Jedi mission of putting the entire galaxy above individuals, would need to be even stricter, and I can see why the Order found allowing marriage and family to be far more trouble than it was worth.
     
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  8. darth_revan96

    darth_revan96 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2015
    This whole rule about Jedi not being able to marry wasn't a rule until the Prequel Trilogy, in the Original Trilogy not once is it mentioned that the Jedi can't fall in love. In the old EU, written in the 90s, Luke marries Mara Jade and most Jedi get married. Then the prequels came out and they had to retcon a lot of the Old EU saying that Luke changed the rules about marriage because its the "new" jedi order.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Right, and OOU, the rule was retroactively made to give the Anakin and Padme relationship the whole "oh forbidden love it's so romantic" angle.

    But IU, I thought the rule made sense, even if it was a bit dogmatic.
     
  10. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011

    Especially since they, you know, seek to be one with the universe.

    I'm not sure how there can be any greater feeling of "relatedness" than being one with the universe, being connected to all things, living or not living, through the Force.
     
  11. Defensor

    Defensor Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2015
    No, the Jedi shouldn't have attachments, because that creates a conflict of interests and prevents said Jedi to think clearly. I'll quote from another thread:

    Out-of-Universe, having no relationships helped playing into the whole Knight Templars' motif that surrounds the Jedi Order.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    It wasn't mentioned in the OT, because Luke never establishes an intimate relationship with Leia. Yes, at one point Lucas started to tread that way, but Kershner cut those scenes out of TESB. So what you're left with is Luke being the loner who has friends. Then TESB and ROTJ starts painting the picture that Luke's near downfall lies with his attachment to Han and Leia. That he is willing to jeopardize himself for them, but they wouldn't want him to do that. That Luke is in danger of falling because of them. With the PT, Lucas firmly cemented it in place. The EU, well, Lucas was never beholden to that.
     
  13. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    yes Jedi should be allowed relationships.

    Relationships are healthy and natural,

    in fact forbidding relationships "some consider unnatural"
     
  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    I wouldn't try to support my position by citing the Templars as an example. The longer they were around, the more they became infamous for not living up to their vows. When the order was suppressed in the 1300's, their corruption was so widespread that there were few tears shed when they were rounded up and imprisoned.
     
  15. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2015
    I'd say yes, but of course, I don't really feel like thinking too deeply into it so there's probably something that shows they are justified by saying "no."

    Like Dandelo said, relationships are healthy and natural and they shouldn't be disregarded like they can lead you to anger, hate, and suffering. "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." What?

    Now, I am not saying the Jedi are terrible (because I'd rather be a Jedi than a Sith) but they have flaws in their logic.
     
  16. Cleo Jinn

    Cleo Jinn Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2015
    I don't know if I could answer that one for real, but I guess it would depend on the Jedi his or her own self rather then the order as a whole.
    Some relationships are good in the Jedi' s life, but some jedi just aren't made for relationships.
    Id like to have a healthy relationship if I were a Jedi, but would it afect how I make my desisions, or what?
    Like I said at first it would depend on the couple.
     
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  17. Defensor

    Defensor Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2015

    The morality of the Templars was never addressed in my post. My point is that the Jedi Order is somewhat modeled after them, albeit in a romanticized way. Star Wars portrays Manichaeist concepts of Good and Evil in the Jedi and the Sith, and whatever historical influences Lucas had in writing them is adapted and romanticized to fit into that scope. Example: Palpatine`s rise to power mirrors Caesar`s, but Caesar himself was never as evil or as ruthless as Palpatine. History is always shaded in gray, Star Wars is not.

    Besides, the Templars were hardly any more corrupt than your average Religious Order by that time, which was a consequence of how much power the Church posessed. They broke their vows frequently - which is obvious when looking at the fact that despite their vows of poverty, they became bankers - but so did everyone else in the Catholic Church those days. This is not to excuse their mishandlings - especially during the Cruzades - but to state that they were not viewed in society as any worse than their counterparts. They were, to the general populous, every bit as sacred as every other Catholic Order around. Their suppression - extermination would be more fitting - did not happen due to their corruption, but because King Philippe of France worked with Pope Clemens V to use the Order`s resources as an easy way out of his financial problems. The Order was betrayed and convicted by the very same Institution it served (another similarity to the Jedi).

    Either way, that is just an out-of-universe side-note. The in-universe, more relevant aspects of the Jedi`s rule of no attachment are found in the post I quoted in my previous post.

    Romantic relationships and families don`t lead directly into anger. They lead into fear: fear of losing them, fear for their well-being, fear of being separated from them. And as Yoda said in TPM: "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" and so on, until one has fallen to the Dark Side.
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    This. Marriage goes against the very thing that defines a Jedi: complete selflessness.
     
  19. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    My point is that the Templars, like Catholic priests, were not allowed to marry, which is a normal healthy relationship for people, and that prohibition leads to ugly consequences which we can read about in the newspapers today. The Jedi followed the same policy for the same reasons, and we all know how well that turned out in the end.

    If an individual chooses to remain single so he can devote his life to society, that's fine. Telling him that he has to do so leads to problems.
     
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  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I would love to discuss how you made the connection between lack of marriage and what you read in the newspapers, but that's for another thread.

    It turned well for thousands of years until a Sith Lord came by.

    That individual is free to leave the order if he wants to have a normal life.
     
  21. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    1. It's not that complicated. Forbid a man normal relationships and he'll find abnormal ones, and the Catholic church is finally dealing with the fallout from that, which is in the papers.

    2. Did it turn out well? Onscreen evidence of the problems of the Jedi order for "thousands of years" is very lacking. Even before the Sith showed up, the Jedi seemed very dogmatic and lacking in vision. I don't believe the Sith caused that, they just took advantage of it.

    3. So you can only serve society to your fullest abilities as part of our group if you follow our unreasonable and inflexible rules, otherwise it's "my way or the highway." That seems counterproductive.

    (Excuse my formatting; I'm trying to deal with OPC: other peoples' computers.)
     
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Your generalization and implication that having no romantic relationships is the cause of those crimes when they happen everywhere and caused by people with normal lives and relationships is fallacious.

    Exactly. And since they are all alive and well, I don't see how that was a problem.

    "Lacking in vision"? What vision? And what's wrong with their rules?

    The Sith took advantage of the fragile state of the Republic. A Republic the Jedi serve. The Jedi weren't destroyed because of their ways.

    You can only be a Jedi if you follow the Jedi rules, rules that are far from unreasonable. If you don't want to follow the Jedi rules, you're free to stop being a Jedi. It's quite simple.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Being a "guardian of peace and justice" is what being a Jedi is all about. Nothing about that says they have to strive for perfect selflessness, and forsake anything smacking of "long-term relationship".
     
  24. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 2, 2011
    In most long-term relationships, one, either inadvertently or intentionally, forms a loyalty or attachment to the friend or spouse. Thus, if an enemy is threatening the person, the Jedi would have a conflict of interests, a chance of being compromised.

    All in all, given how powerful the Jedi are, the best option would be to have a closeness within the Order. This way, the Jedi would get their relationships needs met, and would not have potential leverage against them.

    However, because Palpatine knew this, he took steps to ensure that Anakin would become alienated from his Jedi brethren, such as the following: appointing him as the personal representative against the Council's traditions, constantly overstating his abilities, recommending that he and Obi-Wan would be assigned to guard his past crush, etc.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Similar logic could apply to almost anybody in a position of power over others - a police officer, a soldier, a teacher, a politician, and so forth.