ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

I don't see why he can't be killed and redeemed.

But my opinion is that he should stay a villain to the end, whether dead or not, but preferably killed.

We saw Vader redeemed, and doing the same for Kylo won't do anything good to the story. Killing him however, and keeping his on the dark side, will sadly show that not everyone can be saved, and provide a nice sad, dark ending for the saga and poetically eliminating the last of the Skywalker bloodline (dark-light-dark).

 

Really??? I did not see anything hopeful there.

exactly this ^

 

You saw absolutely nothing hopeful in an ending where Princess Leia receives the Death Star plans and says: "hope?" If not, there is no hope for you.

As for Luke and Rey, no matter their expressions, the last remaining Jedi was found. On a mountaintop. By the new hero. This was the objective of the good guys from the beginning of the film. Clearly, this meeting is supposed to offer hope to the audience that the good guys now have a better chance of defeating Snoke and his minions.

If you have a good argument for why neither of these endings was hopeful, please present it. Don't just say "they're not!" I expect that kind of baseless denial from our President, not you.

 

I told you before that I have problems when everyone dies and for me the depressing death of the heroes is the last thing (what I remember) as the ending of these movies. That's it. I even wonder if we ever see a Sar Wars movie again with a happy ending. Dark and depressive endings are dominating these days.

 

I like the term FT for Final Trilogy or Fourth Trilogy

nightangel My good friend i understand. The last truly happy ending we had was way back with TPM.

 

No thank you, I want to see something different. If the Jedi really are going to leave, what better way to show it than by having Rey ignore Jedi teachings and cut Kylo down?

 

That leads to the dark side.

 

How is the hero killing the villian "different"? That is usually what happens in movies. Especially ones based on fairy tales. Not to say it won't happen, but it's not exactly a new idea.

 

i just don't *want* them to kill kylo off. some people do want it. i don't have any great arguments about why they shouldn't kill him off (or not kill him off). i don't hate his character and still see potential on the good side. even if we must watch it wither to nothing, it hasn't withered yet. so i hold out hopes for him. even though lor san tekka and han also did.

since tptb have declared kylo ren a fanatic and terrorist, there are a lot of implications with this character, and i can't help but also find him politically relevant. i also think he's relevant to angry, lost, insecure young men. since i have my own preferences for messages that i think are positive on both fronts, it makes me want a "healing" solution as well. i remember some story i read about someone who realized his son was a sociopath and finally had to accept his son would only continue to take from him and was incapable of ever loving him, so he cut off ties. but to me it seems pretty clear that ben solo wasn't a sociopath, and that it isn't that black and white, as it hasn't really ever been with star wars... except in the case of the emperor. naturally i find it concerning how kylo ren has the potential to become like the emperor. but by the end of ep. 7, that fate is still not set in stone. there is still hope.

the nice hopeful thing though is we do get an inside view more into some of kylo ren's "issues" whereas we never got such a thing with palpatine. and iirc AD said ep. 8 will show more of his humanity. i don't see that as hope that he'll redirect his course (i wouldn't wish to disappoint myself), but i do see it as hope that the story makers see this as a character with depth, not simply in a black and white way, not simply as a *thing* that can only be destroyed.

 

I know, but why are you ignoring what happens after the hero deaths in TFA and RO?

 

because it doesn't help the ones who died.

 

Leads to redemption.

 

The Dark leads to redemption ?

 

imo the only of eps 1-6 with happy/uplifting endings are eps. 1 and 3.

PT: all dark

tpm - qui-gon was killed, his funeral is near the end, we know an evil is lurking behind the scenes (the jedi wonder if it was the master or apprentice they killed--it is the beginning of the end), but after there is a nice celebration on naboo

aotc - anakin loses his arm, we see palpatine watching his new fleet of star destroyers take off, the clone wars have begun (the end is in motion), but there is a doomed wedding between anakin and padme... there is sadness in their theme music in general (star-crossed lovers). they have decided to take the path they both agreed would destroy their lives. still weddings are "happy."

rots - padme dies, the jedi and republic are destroyed, anakin turns, anakin ruins his closest relationships, anakin is chopped up and burned in lava and put into the vader suit, d. sidious is gleefully victorious, but babies luke and leia are shuttled off to safety (hope for a better "tomorrow")

OT: only ESB dark

anh - the death star is destroyed. obi-wan was killed. but everything is way more hopeful with that weapon of death gone. this movie can be taken alone, and the ending is uplifting for that reason.

esb - han has been put on carbonite and sent to jabba, luke recently learned a terrible truth (and lost his arm), but there is a plan to get han back

rotj - another death star is destroyed, vader is redeemed though it is also sad because of the tragedy of his life and how his evil prevented a loving relationship with his children (his death is thus sad), but in general the galaxy has been freed at last. this is the most uplifting ending.

--

the ST imo is more like the OT in that it is the story of overcoming darkness rather than the story of darkness falling and consuming everything.

 

oncafar

I mostly agree but I do consider TPM a happy ending because......

Although we see Jinn's funeral his death was more dramatic earlier......and.....


We get that supa bom bad party at the end with a parade, the Naboo version of the Stanley Cup passed over & big smiles all around!

 

it's not just his funeral, but that the jedi now know the sith are "back" and they didn't sense them... one has been killed but another is lurking. the music is dark as it shows palpatine's face during the funeral, warning of the dark things to come. anakin is feeling very vulnerable and alone. qui-gon was the one he leaned on, and now he's left with obi-wan who feels more distant to him. obi-wan had never been all for training anakin either and is only doing it because he promised qui-gon. anakin has been separated from his mother, has lost qui-gon, and is soon to be separated from padme (his substitute mother figure). then creepy palpatine is all, "we'll watch your career with great interest." let the grooming begin! it is good that the queen managed to subvert darth sidious and win her planet back, and he certainly hadn't expected that, but the overall feeling is that the end of the jedi and the republic has begun.

this is the opposite of the end of ANH, in which the end of the empire has begun. they just don't see it yet.

 

ANH has a happy ending because the three main characters make it out alive and the Alliance lives to fight another day, and the planet-killing weapon is destroyed.

 

OK.

But that obsessive desire to have people/ characters never die is...well...a darkside desire in the SW universe. The heroes of RO sacrificed themselves for the greater good. That does not diminish the uplifting value of their sacrifice. Indeed, it heightens it. Had Luke died on the Death Star after having destroyed the Emperor and redeemed his father, it still would have been a hopeful ending.

Follow the Jedi teachings a bit, and let go!

 

I have to say that I agree with Nightangel about Rogue One. I was really disappointed that absolutely everyone died. I really don't think that was necessary. Even if they weren't going to ever use any of those characters again, it would have been more satisfying AND hopeful to have at least some of them survive.

I certainly will never watch rogue one again, though I thought it was a well-done movie. It was just too much of a downer. With the 6:00 news having enough "downers" seemingly every day, it's nice to have a positive, uplifting ending to a film; not a depressing one.

I didn't find rogue one hopeful at all. We already knew they were going to get the plans to Leia. We've already seen ANH. So that wasn't a surprise or a hopeful ending to the film itself; just to the rebellion, and we already knew that was going to happen. But there was nothing good or hopeful for any of the characters in rogue one. They all died; even the droid. I think it was even more of a depressing ending because it looked for a while there like Jyn and cassian were going to survive despite the horrible odds. Now THAT would have been an uplifting and hopeful ending!! Not the one we got...

 

I didn't love Rogue One, and have my own issues with it, but having the heroes die was absolutely the right move for the type of film it was trying to be. The original Star Wars was a space adventure/fantasy. It made sense to have a happy ending. Rogue One wanted to be a war movie, and in war, good people die. The movie honored those who make the ultimate sacrifice. That's a plus in my book.

 

Not all of the Dirty Dozen died. Not all of the Seven Samurai died. Not all of the troops who looked for Private Ryan died. Some (I think 3) of the prisoners from The Great Escape escaped. Not all of the 54th Massachusetts died in Glory.

You don't have to kill EVERYONE off in a sacrificial movie in order for it to be good.

 

You don't, and killing off everyone almost never happens even when it would be the most logical because some sort of happy ending is almost mandatory in films to please the audience. It's a gutsy thing to do, and I'm glad they did it. It was a refreshing way of ending the movie that actually honored the fact that it was a suicide mission instead chickening out of it.

 

One survivor was all I asked for.

 

one of the things rogue one did well imo was make one feel the horror of the death star, and i think the most effective way was to have it destroy the heroes in the end. it destroyed jyn's life and her family, including saw g. rogue one was a film in which it was "safe" to do this; to convey the horror of it more clearly. i mean i didn't feel for alderaan or hosnian as much... but being in jedha city before it's reduced to nothing, and seeing the main characters destroyed in nearly an instant... it's more personal and more close to the weight of this weapon. it was nice not to gloss it over for once.