main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by RSarnecky, Dec 19, 2015.

?

Should Kylo Ren Be Killed Off or Redeemed?

  1. Killed Off

    343 vote(s)
    32.0%
  2. Redeemed

    547 vote(s)
    51.0%
  3. Other

    183 vote(s)
    17.1%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    That's the thing. Some crimes can't be atoned for. Period. Both in real life AND in stories. The thing about noble self-sacrifice is that it is the one heroic deed a character can do that no other character - if they survive - can do. That's why such endings are often favored ways of completing the arc of a villain who has become good but who has committed unforgivable crimes.

    I really don't think I'm overstating the awfulness of patricide. As I've said before, killing Han was perhaps the most viscerally heinous crime JJ could have depicted onscreen. JJ knew what he was doing.
     
    AhsokaSolo likes this.
  2. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    That's the thing. Some crimes can't be atoned for. Period. Both in real life AND in stories. The thing about noble self-sacrifice is that it is the one heroic deed a character can do that no other character - if they survive - can do. That's why such endings are often favored ways of completing the arc of a villain who has become good but who has committed unforgivable crimes.

    I really don't think I'm overstating the awfulness of patricide. As I've said before, killing Han was perhaps the most viscerally heinous crime JJ could have depicted onscreen. JJ knew what he was doing.
     
  3. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    I think one of the compelling concepts regarding a Kylo Ren redemption and life in exile (vs. execution or imprisonment) is the prospect of an opportunity to live and finally live without the constraints of others' expectations heaped up on him, whether they are Skywalker, Solo, Organa expectations or those coming from Snoke.

    Being sent to his uncle to train as a Jedi was very much a decision (That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just should've never sent him away. That's when I lost him...) This was a decision made for him. We don't know if he even had any say in the matter. It was a parent making a decision for her child who was a minor at the time.

    The same could be said for his apprenticeship with Snoke. How much autonomy did he really have? In our brief interactions with Snoke, he's either barking orders, or not pleased with Kylo Ren. Ben is not allowed to even go by his birth name. No one is allowed to say it. Seems like a dynamic with a lot of rules and expectations and not a lot of wiggle room for autonomy. Decisions are made for him. He makes his own decisions in accordance to his Master's wishes and expectations. The decisions are poor, awful and misguided. But they are in line with what Snoke wants, or at least what Kylo perceives his master wants.

    For argument's sake, let's just say that he survives the trilogy and is demonstrating contrition and is pointed toward redemption. Wouldn't it be a hopeful ending for him to not only reclaim his name. After all, if you don't have ownership of your own name, are you free on any level?

    So I am hopeful that we will get a redemption because the story of what happens after (I'll be happy if it is in tie-in novels, because I'm not holding my breath for Driver to agree to return down the line) the good guys win. I'd like to see more of that second chance to figure out how to live.

    In regards to Han's death. I'm okay with that as a plot device if Han himself was willing to take the gamble that his own death could be a catalyst in his son's return to the light. The power of a father's forgiveness may be what saves Ben Solo from himself.
     
  4. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Sometimes I wish we could get some clarification re whether the Dark Side involves some element of magical compulsion, vs regular ole' every-day evil.

    I'm sure they'll find some way of making his redemption believable. I mean, they've VERY heavily telegraphed that plot point.

    From what we've been told of Kylo, I think his development has really been twisted and stunted. If that's true, that removes a little moral culpability, imo, but also lowers the likelihood of him ever reaching a modicum of "normalcy."

    I think a broken Ben Solo going into solitary exile sounds like a rather depressing end for the character, especially since the galaxy will be howling for him to be brought to a more...final...sort of justice. And haven't the Jedi always been the "guardians of peace and justice"?

    I do appreciate that it leaves room for future EU stories, but...eh. We'll see. I can't think of any analagous examples of that kind of ending for a character like Kylo in film. If anyone knows of any good ones, I'd like to know, 'cause I'd be curious.

    In any case, I don't see Kylo/Ben having much if anything to do with future Saga films. But hey, maybe Kylo's death/exile will mark the end of the Saga films. (Although the chances of an announcement saying yay or nay to X-XII before 9 comes out is basically nil XP.)
     
  5. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    JoJoPenelli

    I'm not convinced that Ben Solo as a child ever had Jedi aspirations. So a life in exile, whereever that may be could be his opportunity to walk away from it all if he chooses or to remain watching and waiting from the periphery to be an ally for the forces of good if the need arises.

    I forget who said, but I think it was The Regular Mustache, that a life in exile may be a chance to finally discover a life of peace with himself. So I don't see exile being depressing, but an opportunity to make of it what he chooses. He can chose to remain miserable. Or he could choose a journey of discovering peace. For me, that would be a hopeful ending for a character.
     
    oncafar and ManWithoutAStar like this.
  6. ManWithoutAStar

    ManWithoutAStar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I agree. In exile he can discover true happines. Free of expectations and he can truly become his own person and thus honoring his father's sacrifice.
     
  7. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016

    I don't have a film off the top of my head but I do have a very well regarded show: Zuko in Avatar: The Last Airbender.


    In TLA, Zuko is basically blindly following his evil father who is currently the Firelord (King of the Fire Nation). Throughout the show, Zuko is trying to prove himself to his father in order to restore his honor with him. This isn't unlike Kylo who is constantly trying to prove himself to Supreme Leader Snoke. It's obvious the Firelord is evil. But Zuko is so indoctrinated by his father that his perception of good and evil is wildly thrown out of whack. Zuko's character development through the 3 seasons is pretty beautifully done for a kids show, and eventually he realizes, with the help of his 'Jedi-like' uncle, that he needs to discover and follow his own destiny instead of trying to prove that he's good enough for his father. His destiny is to help the Avatar defeat the Firelord in order to restore balance to the world.

    Zuko helps the Avatar do just that, and then he takes it upon himself to become Firelord in order to try and mend the wounds that his family has inflicted upon the world. He's not exactly 'punished' for all of the wrongs that he's committed throughout the show, but a great deal of characters still hold some vitriol and mistrust towards him.

    The show takes this concept to another level when the Avatar decides to keep the Firelord alive instead of killing him. The Avatar believes that no one is beyond saving and that everybody deserves a second chance. So, instead of killing the Firelord, he decides to take away all of his bending abilities (basically force abilities). They then end up throwing the Firelord in prison for all of the pain and suffering he's caused.

    So, I guess if we're trying to compare the two stories: Kylo Ren is similar to Zuko, indoctrinated by the 'big bad' only to discover his own destiny by himself by choosing to do good instead of serving evil. Supreme Leader Snoke is similar to the Firelord, who clearly represents evil and tries to corrupt our main characters. You can even compare Avatar Aang to Rey - as both of their objectives (likely) are to bring balance to the world (galaxy). And you can also compare Uncle Iroh to Luke whose vast experience and wisdom helps our main characters get on the right path to defeating evil and bringing balance.

    Honestly, if you haven't watched TLA, I highly suggest it. It's a kids show, but its themes resonate timelessly in the same way that our Star Wars movies do. I was drawing so many parallels between the two stories while watching the show, and it was an extremely enjoyable experience. It's no wonder the show is so highly regarded.

    Fun fact: Firelord Ozai (Zuko's father) is even voiced by Mark Hamill which, of course, just makes Mark that much more awesome.

     
    thehighground likes this.
  8. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Do you see such an ending as a real possibility?

    Han didn't sacrifice himself. He was murdered by his son. This wasn't an Obi-Wan Kenobi-style death. And no matter what endgame is ultimately in store for Kylo, I can't imagine the directors or LFL framing patricide as anything other than patricide.

    Anyone wanna tweet PH or RJ for an answer to "Han Solo's death - murder or sacrifice"? I'm pretty sure they'd be willing to give a straight answer to that.
     
  9. ManWithoutAStar

    ManWithoutAStar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2017
    I do see it as a possibility and I hope we get this ending.
    Han did sacrifice himself. He knew that he might not get back from that bridge but still went out to reach his son. And even in his death, he forgave him. So, yes, he sacrificed himself. He did the most selfless thing possible.
     
  10. thehighground

    thehighground Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2016
    I have heard that comparison many times. And it makes sense, they both even look quite alike- with their black hair and prominent scar. Maybe this trilogy will show us the more adult version of a character arc like Zuko´s, and in the adult version of this story, being on the wrong side does result in killing people, in murdering your own father - but this doesn´t mean there is no coming back and ultimate forgiveness.
    I came across this spanish phrase a few weeks ago by the way: " solo se perdona lo imperdonable " it translates as " only what is unforgivable can be forgiven" and that fits this story quite nicely, I think.
     
  11. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    ....

    I don't think I should even attempt a substantive response to that,
     
  12. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    thehighground

    That's a very nice quote :). Funny how some random occurrences in life can seem so relatable and intentional.

    I do catch myself constantly comparing Kylo and Zuko. You're right, they do look very similar, and I could definitely see their stories being very similar. But I have to be careful not to always compare the two to the point where I am hoping for a Zuko-like outcome. As much as I loved TLA, that kind of story just might not work for Star Wars, and there's nothing wrong with that. So I will continue to try and draw comparisons without forming my own bias about the outcome of Kylo's story.
     
    thehighground likes this.
  13. ManWithoutAStar

    ManWithoutAStar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2017
    What I wrote is supported by what J.J and the novelizations said. If you do not know how to make a substantive then do not even post about not making it please.
     
    What Girl likes this.
  14. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Thanks! :)

    What kind of bad stuff does Zuko do on-screen? I ask because I believe that to be key to the director's intent.

    I don't think that every redeemed villain must die in the end, btw. That's why I was initially flummoxed by JJ showing Kylo commit patricide. A filmmaker can establish a villain as evil ("evil"?) without showing the audience something like *that.* In fact, JJ coukd easily have made Kylo indirectly or accidently responsible for his father's death. JJ could have shown Kylo's actions to be wrong without going to the extreme he did. At first, I was convinced JJ had made a HUGE misjudgment. Until I realized JJ must have known exactly what he was doing and was well aware of the inevitable consequences.

    ManWithoutAStar

    Alrighty then.

    I disagree, obviously. And to drastically understate my feelings on the matter, I find your characterization of Han's murder to be very disturbing.

    Done and done.
     
  15. What Girl

    What Girl Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016

    So, since Obi-Wan sacrificed himself, it doesn't count as being murdered by Vader? Is this what you're saying?
     
  16. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    ...what? No. It was murder and a sacrifice.

    Han's murder was not a sacrifice. And it was far worse than what Vader did to Obi-wan. I really don't this is up for debate. I find the contortions some are willing to go through to diminish the morally reprehensible nature of what Kylo did to be boggling.

    One can defend the idea of Kylo surviving the ST without those kinds of arguments. Seriously.
     
  17. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001

    If Han's murder is the catalyst to make Kylo question his entire world view and is the first step in coming home, then it very much is a sacrifice as he would have made the ultimate sacrifice to fully Leia's wishes to bring their son Ben home. It would be a bookend to Han's legacy--he started out a selfish mercenary yet dies a selfless, loving father. What a beautiful way to close the chapter on that character.

    And I don't say that lightly. Han is my absolutely favorite character of the saga. To allow him to fulfill Leia's wish to bring their son home would be a fitting ending for this character. Love triumphs over evil.

    The sacrifice Han made didn't have immediate effects. But as Driver has said Kylo learns that "patricide isn't what it's cracked up to be."

    This is a long game that Han played. If it plays out in redemption, it's a powerful loving gesture from a father to his estranged son. He was willing to do anything--even die-- to bring him home.
     
  18. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    JoJoPenelli

    Understood. More spoilers I suppose :p

    I'm trying to remember back to some specific horrible things that Zuko does on-screen. Keep in mind that this is a Nickelodeon show, so like Rebels, it tends not to focus on killing and horrible acts of evil.

    I guess to start, for the majority of the show he is extremely unappreciative of his loving, patient, and extremely accepting Uncle, who just wants Zuko to be happy. He is constantly verbally berating him about being a 'lazy traitor' and such. At the beginning of the show we see Zuko and his fleet raid a Water Nation village of basically just women and children. He sets multiple villages aflame throughout the entirety of the show... I could imagine hundreds, if not, thousands of people were killed or injured as a result of this.

    He has an insanely short temper and often lashes out (physically and verbally) at people who CLEARLY don't deserve to be treated that way. Half way through the show, we start to see a more humane side of Zuko, and there is a particular scene where Zuko basically gets to choose between helping the Avatar and following his own destiny, or betraying the Avatar and his friends so he can continue to serve evil. He chooses the latter even though he forms some 'supposed' trust with the Avatar's friends. The show actually makes a point at various points where Zuko is given a choice between doing the right thing and trying to impress his father. Multiple times you'll think - 'Finally, Zuko has learned from his mistakes!' Only to be disappointed when he makes another dumb decision to try and prove his worth to his father.

    So, I mean, the director(s) of the show clearly wanted to show Zuko doing some pretty horrible things, because they wanted to establish him as a 'villain' early on. But as the show progressed, you kept getting more and more of Zuko's backstory and his motivations behind why he was acting so horribly. His turning point came after discovering an awful secret about his family, and his father in particular. This came at a time where his morality was at a complete crossroads - and this secret showed him the truth about who he needed to become.
     
    thehighground likes this.
  19. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2016
    Wow how long is TLJ going to be? [face_batting]
     
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    I want to watch this show now! Do you know which streaming platforms carry it?
     
    KembaSkywalker likes this.
  21. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Do it! Just do me a favor and NEVER watch the movie.

    You can stream it on Amazon. Free with an Amazon Prime account.

    Obviously this goes without saying: Kids show, so you'll deal with some classic kid-friendly moments (especially early in the show). But it's one of my favorite shows of all time. I could re-watch season 3 for the rest of my life and still enjoy it. Also, the music is so underrated. Really impressive what they did with the score using strictly MIDI and an obviously tight budget.
     
  22. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Will do ;)

    YAY! I have Amazon Prime ^______^
     
    KembaSkywalker likes this.
  23. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    It's not a sacrifice to risk one's life for their child. A sacrifice involves choosing to die. Han risked his life for Kylo, hoping for a good outcome, and Kylo took his life. It diminishes what Kylo did to pretend otherwise. Han wouldn't have stepped onto that bridge just to be murdered. He stepped onto that bridge to try and save his son.
     
  24. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Pretty sure it was an informed choice when Han decided to call out to his son. He knew the risks, he accepted the chance he could die.

    And he did it anyway.

    Feel free to winnow down the meaning of sacrifice. But for many of us, we see what Han did as a selfless act.
     
  25. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    Once again, I fail to see how this is a punishment or justice for all of the crimes kylo has committed? Allowing him to go free to pursue whatever kind of life he wishes isn't going to bring justice to all of the people whose deaths he caused. Why should kylo be allowed to choose whatever kind of life he wants for himself when his victims have NO lives to live because he killed them? I can understand liking a character and wanting only the best for him, but is it realistic to really expect kylo to have a happy life after all that he has done? Should there truly be no consequences? And as Ashoka said, just saying he's sorry isn't enough. Would/should a mass murderer or terrorist be allowed to live as he/she pleases because he/she says "I'm sorry,"?

    I am sorry that the filmmakers chose to make Han and Leia's son, and possibly the only next-generation skywalker a huge villain. However, now that they have done that, as much as I love Han and Leia, I can't see him being given a free pass just because of his lineage. I just don't see how things can end well for kylo. He has gone too far; done too many evil things. While it's very possible that kylo may realize the error of his ways and stop committing evil acts, thus returning to the light, that doesn't mean that he should get to escape punishment. And any sentence that doesn't involve death or inprisonment, is too lenient for the many truly terrible crimes that kylo has committed. I've heard some say that would be boring or the waste of a character. Well, kylo already chose to waste his life when he chose to do evil.

    Maybe the filmmakers will do the very unexpected and turn everything on its head and have kylo NOT get a redemption arc, but instead, live to continue to be a villain in the next trilogy, if there is one.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.