ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Agreed. I felt that it was obviously an intentionally break from Luke/Vader of the OT, to make a point. And that's for the best. They should tell a different story this time. Kylo killing loving Han while Han offered forgiveness in cold blood is clearly a different path. When Luke offered Vader forgiveness and refused to harm him despite his crimes, Vader to him up on his offer. He died to save him. Kylo was under no threat. He just had to go with Han. Instead he chose to murder him.

Just to expand a little on my previous point, because I think it so bears emphasis in this conversation the way people are talking, why on earth would any parent choose for his/her child to live with being a parent killer? What kind of "sacrifice" is that? Han's death didn't save Finn or Rey. It didn't get SKB destroyed. People are saying that his "sacrifice" was to bring Kylo back to the light, but how on earth could Han believe that patricide would bring Kylo back in that moment in order for it to be an informed choice? All Han would know is that his son killed him in cold blood, and would now forever be a daddy killer. Kylo would have to live with that, redeemed or not, carry it. Leia would carry it. That's not a sacrifice a parent would want to make. A parent would want to save his child from that path, not help his child onto that path.

 

I suspect he will fairly the same as we see--not the happiest person in the room. A little formal (The "you're my guest" made me think he does have a definite code of etiquette and manners even if he was just being a turd), and churlish at times.

The only difference will likely be he is less angry.

 

Are we really debating if someone as generally worldly and cynical as Han Solo didn't know the risks of the chance he was taking? Of course he looked shocked with a flaming laser pushed through him.

But anyone suggesting that Han thought there was no chance things could go horribly wrong by stepping out on the catwalk need only look at the way he watches Kylo stalking mere meters from him, or the way he slowly, hesitantly approaches him. Han didn't put off this moment for years because he thought Ben was at worst going to say mean things to him or just turn tail and run away.

 

"Suicide by Kylo." It's a thing, apparently.

 

or the look on his face after leia ask that he try to reach out to kylo. he didn't share her feeling on the matter.

 

Do you enjoy talking past me? Because nothing in the post you quote says Han committed suicide or excuses Kylo's choice to kill him.

All I'm saying is Han's choice was the same as Luke's in ROTJ: a risky offer of grace to a lost family member, fully aware of what could happen if that offer is turned down. That's not suicide or anything of the like.

 

And are you arguing that, therefore, Kylo is in any way less morally culpable in committing patricide? Because it sounds like you are. And if you aren't, I'm not getting the underlying point you're making.

:/

 

I think the point that he's trying to make is that Han's gesture of acceptance, love, and forgiveness could turn out to be a pretty large factor when it comes to Kylo's possible redemption. He's recognizing the fact that Han's death was not for nothing, and that if Kylo does turn out to be redeemed, Han's selfless act will be referred back to. Either by Luke, or Leia, or Kylo himself. We already know that Han's sacrifice, or Kylo's murder if you like, had a great influence on Kylo. He had his own 'What have I done?' moment that will stick with him for the rest of his life whether he likes it or not. No matter how much Snoke's influence on him grows, or how much darkness is consuming inside of him, he'll never forget that even after all of the horrible things that he has done, his father was still willing to die for him to bring him back.

I'm not trying to downplay the horrid act Kylo committed. He murdered his own father - we know this. I'm trying to highlight the fact that his father's murder backfired on him. He felt awful afterwards. Confused. Angry at why it didn't seem to make him stronger. That will be big in regards to a Kylo Ren redemption arc, if it happens. And it happened because Han was willing to die to at least try and get his son back from Snoke.

 

Not really, because I never said Kylo is not responsible, or that his choice isn't terrible.

The point is that the end of Han's story has a self-sacrificing element to it, that should be honored by fans, in the same way the selfless choices of Obi-Wan or Luke in ROTJ are treated. The suggestion that Han had no awareness of the self-abnegating aspect of even offering someone as lost as Kylo mercy ignores the hard choice the character had to make, and what that choice says about him as a hero. Suggesting that Han was oblivious to the risk to him personally removes the heroic element of the choice he made to nonetheless offer mercy to someone he thought lost.

 

I'm betting Kylo doesn't regret killing his dad. He however might be angry that killing Han didn't cleanse him of the light side. I could see a scene where Leia misreads Kylo's pain as regret and tries to use this as an in to bring him back to the light side but then Kylo will tell her that the light side is the last thing he wants in his life. He'll probably tell her that Han didn't give him enough attention or love and that even in death Han didn't Kylo what he wanted from his father which will make him hate Han even more even though he's dead.

 

Are you suggesting that we should root for Kylo's redemption/absolution/survival in order to honor the memory of his father? Because that sounds like an argument for why murdering one's father should result in a lesser punishment than, say, murdering anyone else. When, in fact, in storytelling, patricide has traditionally viewed as one of the very worst crimes a character coukd commit. JJ was well aware of that when he showed Kylo kill Han. You don't have a character do that without a particular endgame in mind. Especially when it's a movie marketed to kids. JJ knows this.

If your argument is "But that would be too dark/depressing/etc," then blame JJ. It was his decision. He foreshadowed Kylo's future redemption. He also, imo, foreshadowed Kylo's death.

 

JoJoPenelli,

Sometimes as simple statement about Han is just that. Feel about Kylo's redemption however you like. I disagree with anyone saying that Han went to SKB not knowing the weight of all possible outcomes. His heroic offer of compassion and mercy makes his arc in TFA meaningful.

 

If you're talking about Han's arc in isolation, and arguing against the interpretation of his arc as pathetic or lacking agency...

Then I agree with you.

 

Kemba summed up my feelings much more eloquently than I have today. So, thank you!

 

Are we debating whether or not Kylo will be redeemed? Or whether he'll survive the ST? Because I know he'll be redeemed; I felt JJ made that very obvious in TFA. In fact, yes, I want him to be redeemed. I just think he's going to pay the ultimate price in the end, not just because of my personal view of his actions but because allowing a character who murders an innocent father onscreen to survive a movie/series is simply Not Done. As I've said before, it's like how House of Cards got the point across that its protagonist is irredeemable evil by making the first scene of him strangling a dog to death. Similarly, patricide = this character isn't going to die of old age, that's for sure. That's just how Hollywood works.

Just sayin'.

 

Absolutely nobody is saying Han thought there was no chance things could go wrong. That's what happens when someone takes a risk. Sometimes taking a risk doesn't pay off, and it didn't in that case. What people are arguing against is the idea that Han chose to let Kylo kill him for the greater good. That didn't happen, nor does it make sense, because no parent would think there is greater good in being murdered by their child.

"Being a turd" is one way to put making a comment like that to your kidnapping victim you have strapped to a torture table. A "code of etiquette and manners" definitely isn't the way I would put it.

 

I think this is a beautiful bookend to Han Solo's story.

He started off exceptionally selfish in ANH. He took orders from only one person--himself. He was in it for the money. He didn't care about anyone but himself. He summed up his existance quite nicely when he declared, "It is for me, sister. Look, I aint in this for your revolution, and I'm not in it for you, Princess. I expect to be well paid. I'm in it for the money."

At the end of his story, he selflessly puts his life on the line to follow Leia's wish to bring their son home. He could've just as easily planted the bombs, blown up oscillator with his son in it, ridding the galaxy of Kylo Ren. But he chose to step out on the bridge.

He wasn't confronting Kylo Ren. He was confronting his son, and it is quite poignant that he referred to him by the name he and Leia gave him, not the one Snoke gave him.

No, he didn't walk out there and decide, "Well, I'll let my son run me through and I'll die. Maybe that can knock some sense into the kid." But when he realized he was a dead man standing, he offered his love and forgiveness without reservation. He could've chose to drag his son down into the chasm, killing them both, but he didn't. He caressed his son's face in a loving gesture and let the monster Kylo Ren had become that he still saw his son in there somewhere.

That is the selfless act--the forgiveness and the love. He chose this route and perhaps that is what will stick with Kylo as he moves forward. Han had two opportunities (three if you include he could've easily shot him in the back at point blank range, but didn't chose that option either.) He could've died with his father, but his father didn't chose that route. He chose something on a higher for him. Forgiveness and love are tenets embedded in the light side of the Force. Han offered Kylo light before he died.

 

Well, my post was more-so just trying to reiterate ThreeDeathstickProblem 's point that Han's act of forgiveness and selflessness should be honored and that it may play into Kylo's redemption. We've debated the bolded text earlier in this thread on how it might be possible to keep Kylo alive if he ends up being redeemed. I know your stance on what should happen to Kylo and respect it, and if I'm being honest, I tend to lean towards Kylo sacrificing himself as being the most likely scenario when looking at a Kylo redemption. I don't really want anything in particular, I just want what's best for the story . I'm hoping the directors and story group want the same thing.

 

Very nicely put!!

I will point out, though, that Kylo rejected that love in the worst possible way. Then effectively rejected the forgiveness right after by hunting down his father's companions and throwing his name in their face.

I wonder if that was just a flat-out misjudgment on JJ's part, however, considering what he says in the director's commentary. I for one got the very opposite impression from the "instant regret" JJ says he intended. I really like JJ's work, so it boggles me that he assumed what is at best "very subtle indications" to convey regret after *a patricide,* then having Kylo act in a way that very much conveys the opposite. I'd be shocked if the GA got the message JJ intended.

 

i got the instant regret, and how he tried to suppress it after. didn't really need JJ to tell me. i don't think it was a misjudgment at all. i really felt this was clear in the scene, in the expressions crossing kylo's face afterwards, and in his behavior in the snow fight. but anyway!

 

I do REALLY like AD's acting in TFA, though...I just don't get some of JJ's choices...

I have this behind the scenes photo of AD as Kylo with his mask off; he's sort of looking down and smiling. I think it was the first ST photo I ever saved! Just because it was a really nice expression.

 

I bet Kylo would absolutely describe his own behavior as following a code of etiquette. He gives me the impression of the guy who prides himself on being a perfect gentleman until someone makes him angry. And then all bets are off. How dare people upset him so much?

 

LOL could be, I get what you're saying. I dunno though, if he was that attached to a code of etiquette, I'm inclined to think destructive temper tantrums wouldn't be on his repertoire.

On the whole, "you're my guest" thing, I don't think it meets the definition even of what you're describing. To me, it was clearly mockery, or more specifically, a strategy of dealing with the subject of his "interrogation." Guests aren't tied down after being knocked out and kidnapped, nor are they subject to mind invasion against their will, and Kylo is a big enough boy to understand that very, very clearly. Hearing someone like that in those circumstances isn't reassuring. It's a mind F.

 

i don't necessarily think that kylo has a *code* of etiquette but i think his behavior reflects that he was raised to be well-mannered. i don't know if he cares about it anymore, but the way in which he spoke with han reflected it as did the his interactions with rey. his behavior towards snoke also does. even things like how he waits until the person in the cell wakes up before he talks to them, rather than just going up to them and waking them up. it's an underlying sort of default in his behavior. he was taught to be respectful and well-mannered and he probably was so as ben solo.

villains can have manners. it's not some kind of impossibility. darth maul's character in sw rebels had a sort of well-mannered way of speaking with others and interacting with them. however, the inevitable betrayal was always on the way too. in other words, maul both had manners AND was dishonorable. sometimes there even might be a little sincerity--i believed him that he hadn't intended to blind kenan. never mind that what he intended was much worse! but maul i think can understand how much it sucks being crippled. lol

manners reflect often a person's upbringing. sometimes they are so deeply ingrained that they simply arise naturally in behavior (for instance, saying "please" and "thank you" can become automatic habit).

with kylo i found the contradiction between his background which shaped him (manners) and his behavior now, interesting.

 

Man, we're not going to get nearly enough Lil Ben Solo in TLJ, are we? I bet we get more in 9, though It's a shame we won't ne able to see young Han and Leia in those flashbacks...

I think such flashbacks will also help us focus our anger as an audience on Snoke. It needsto happen earlier than with the Emperor in the OT, because I think Kylo will be redeemed before the very end.