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Discussion Should Kylo Ren Be Killed or Redeemed? The Future of the Character Storyline

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi & IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by RSarnecky, Dec 19, 2015.

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Should Kylo Ren Be Killed Off or Redeemed?

Killed Off 222 vote(s) 28.3%
Redeemed 452 vote(s) 57.6%
Other 111 vote(s) 14.1%
  1. MichaelSkellig Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2017
    star 1
    There's a ton of stuff we don't know yet, and a lot of misdirection - this is what writers do. There's so much blank space, we can easily fill it in with reasons for feeling less hostile to Kylo.

    What if Ben had been making clear all his life that 'something' was wrong in his mind (Snoke influence?), and Leia dismissed it because she didn't want to tell him he was Vader's grandson and therefore primed for darkness? With Han shying away because he hates all that Force mumbo-jumbo and just wanted a 'normal' kid? How would a child feel, coping with that emotional pressure entirely on his own, despite appealing to his parents for help?

    The books suggest that Han may have a sense of guilt towards his son: he dies hoping that his son forgives him. What if Han dumped Ben in a dangerous situation, to 'teach him a lesson', and then it backfired and Han couldn't get him back?

    We heard Leia say that she lost Ben when she sent him away - it's clear she made a decision she regrets. What if she sensed Ben's darkness but assumed it was the 'Vader in him' and thought she could fight the Vader out of him? After all, that's Leia's way of dealing - to fight hard. She hadn't told Ben about Vader, but was so obsessed with her father that she failed to see that the problem was not Vaderness?

    What if Luke dismissed Ben's pleas because he thought he'd personally eradicated the dark side with the death of Palpatine and Vader, and couldn't consider that a different kind of darkside power had emerged?

    None of these things may be true , but any one of them would alter our perception of the situation.
    Birkendoc likes this.
  2. What Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2016
    star 4

    It seems implied in the novel that Han and Ben did not understand one another. Han wishes to himself that his son had been "ordinary" like him -- as in, devoid of Force powers. I found that really sad. In turn, Ben felt disappointed in him as a father. It's all left quite vague. I see it as a persistent problem since the beginning, not any single incident, that kept them from truly accepting each other.
  3. oncafar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    redemption would mean the light in him wins over the darkness and thus the good person "ben solo" destroys the bad one "kylo ren." redemption can't make anyone worse (that totally isn't what the word means). if the good in me triumphs over the evil in me in a permanent way, i'd say i've become better.
  4. The Regular Mustache Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 4
    Even if Kylo Ren is redeemed what does that really mean? Does that mean he's going to save one person and therefore he's redeemed? The accepted narrative these days is that Darth Vader was redeemed because he killed the Emperor and saved Luke. So Darth does one good thing after years of killing literally millions of people and we all say, "yeah but he saved Luke so he's totally redeemed." And yet some people here are saying that because Kylo killed Han, the Jedi students and that one village at the beginning of TFA then he can't be redeemed. Seems odd to me that we'd accept Vader's redemption but not Kylo's.

    I personally don't accept Vader's redemption and wouldn't accept Kylo's either. Despite what Lucas has said about Vader I don't consider Vader redeemed. Did Luke turn him back to the light side at the last minute and wasn't it a good thing that he saved Luke? Yes and yes but I personally wouldn't say that redeems him. Similarly I'm guessing if Kylo dies protecting the good guys people will, "hey look at that! He's redeemed!" In my book? No. He's still an awful person that did one good thing.

    All of this is to say that when we talk about Kylo being "redeemed" I don't think it means that he's all of a sudden going to be fighting shoulder to shoulder with the good guys like Magneto in the X-Men series. At most he'll do one good thing and that will be it.

    Or I'm totally wrong.:p
    Erkan12 and ChildOfWinds like this.
  5. oncafar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    i think what was most important in the vader redemption was that anakin's selfless love for luke overcame the enormity of his darkness (darth vader). he spiritually returned to the light in that the spark of anakin became a blinding supernova of light that washed away the darkness (as this was required in order for him to save his son - to save his son, he had to change). it's an internal transformation rather than being something decided by external factors. and that's why a person can't be "worse" after it, because the light inside them won out over the darkness such that the darkness is completely overturned.

    i see anakin becoming a force ghost (a luminous being) as confirmation of this.

    also this was an outcome the emperor couldn't see coming. he believed anakin was dead. but even the tiny bit of him remaining was enough to overturn the darth vader personality.
    Last edited by oncafar, Oct 5, 2017
  6. Lomesa Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2016
    star 1
    Hmmm, so with the trailer I have a couple of new thoughts on the destruction of the helm as a possible indicator for redemption.

    It seems like the bit with Kylo picking up his lightsaber from the grounds seems to be him taking up arms again after his defeat and receiving orders from Snoke for the strike against the resistance. I think the scene where Kylo destroys the mask will be soon after that. I think Snoke is going to disappoint/ anger Kylo in some way, which will cause Kylo Ren to be furious at himself for being so stupid and lead him to destroy the symbol of the Kylo Ren persona.

    This is strange pacing for a redemption arc, but then again I found the pacing in TFA equally strange. It's insane how much development they packed into Kylo's 10 minutes of screen time.
  7. Thrawn082 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2014
    star 6
    If Kylo kills Leia to, then I don't really see many in the audience buying "redemption" after that. Because he'd have killed both of his parents in pursuit of power.
    wobbits, 11-4D and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  8. cerealbox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2016
    star 5
    That shot is of Kylo and Leia is at the beginning of the D-Qar escape, right?

    We later see Leia on Crait.
    11-4D and Lomesa like this.
  9. BalanceOfTheForce Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2016
    They'll jail him and then whenever Episode 10 releases they'll have to reluctantly team up with him.
  10. Darth Smurf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2015
    star 4
    Sounds like Kylo "Khan" Ren
  11. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The difference is Vader cares about his family while Kylo Ren does not. The main reason Vader turned to the dark side is so he could save people from dying and it stems from the fact that he failed to save his mother from the Sand People. When he has visions of Padme dying at childbirth, Vader is desperate to find a way to save her so he allows PalpSidious to trick him into believing that turning to the dark side is his only option, only that plan backfired tremendously. Kylo Ren, on the other hand, only turned to the dark side out of a) some misguided idea of what Vader represents, and b) the need to reject the light side within him because he thinks of it as a weakness that cost Vader his life. Kylo wants to rid himself of that light and he sees his family as the source of the light side, hence why he had to kill his dad Han, why he's plotting to kill uncle Luke, and god knows what he's going to do to his mom Leia.
  12. sls062286 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2016
    star 4
    We dont know much if anything about why Kylo turned (heck we dont even know exactly when he turned). So youre kind of making a lot of assumptions. Also Vader forgot the whole keeping Padme from dying thing pretty much immediately. You dont choke someone if you want to keep them from dying (or maybe he was just incredibly misinformed about how CPR works?)
    Last edited by sls062286, Oct 10, 2017
  13. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    Vader was shown quite literally to be “out of his mind” when he chocked Padme, action which he later regretted and death which he mourned with a cringe-worthy “NOOO”.
    Kylo was shown to be fully aware of what he was doing, and killing Han was his objective, not a death he caused by accident. He also did not mourn his passing nor was shown to have much regret of that action.

    It’s true that we don’t know what made Kylo turn to the darkside – and we may not learn from the movies – but we do know that, whatever his reasons, he is not motivated by family love. On the contrary, he is explicitly shown in TFA, and in this trailer, to be motivated to kill his family.
    Last edited by La Calavera, Oct 10, 2017
  14. sls062286 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2016
    star 4
    Except Adam Driver specifically said that he longed for a connection to family. It's not that black and white.
    Last edited by sls062286, Oct 10, 2017
  15. Erkan12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2013
    star 4
    I don't think that's debatable, and I respect your opinion, but Vader obviously redeemed. He turned to the light side, he hasn't just saved Luke because he was his son, he admitted that ''you were right Luke, you were right about me.'' What was Luke right about? The light side inside of Vader. At the end, the light side triumphed over the dark and Vader killed the Emperor.

    Of course you can say we can't accept Vader's apology, since he did so many bad things, I am ok with that. Even Leia didn't accept her own father's apology for his crimes and she didn't forgive him.
    Last edited by Erkan12, Oct 10, 2017
    The Regular Mustache likes this.
  16. La Calavera Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2015
    star 4
    I remember Adam saying he felt abandoned by his family. Which suggests a motivation driven by anger/feelings of rejection (from his family), which is still the opposite of Vader’s motivations.
  17. Harbour Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2015
    star 2
    Redeeming never was the proper term in relation to Vader and Kylo's cases. To explain my position on Kylo's case, i need to explain why Vader's redemption worked so well.
    The key to it is in the soon death.
    It was so important for story to make Vader die right after he killed Emperor. Why?
    Because in SW if you do such a terrible things, as Vader and Kylo did, you SHOULDNT go away without a punishement.You cant become the Jedi again having himself coverd in blood.
    This is not how the Force work(c).

    Just try to imagine what will people say if Vader didnt die after he killed Emperor.
    "Hey, so he just killed one right man and thats it? He redeemed? He can live his life as "good guy" without any consequences? WTF?"
    And they will be right.

    Here goes Kylo Ren.
    Just try to feel that: He kills Luke's students, orders to wipe out the entire village on innocent people, kills LST, looks at the destruction of the whole star system, murders own father in cold blood. Then, few weeks later, he for whatever reason throws aways the Dark Side, marries Rey, trains the new Jedi, and lives his life "happily".

    Isnt it disgusting? Isnt it wrong? IMO it is.

    That leads to my position on Kylo.
    If they would "redeem" Kylo, then he should die like Vader soon after redemption. I see the death, the ultimate price, the most fitting punishment for what he did before.
    If they arent going to kill Kylo, then he should not be redeemed. He should stay villain or suffer as some kind of "No One" for the whole life, trying to atone his sins as hard as he can but ultimately wont be granted the title of Jedi and stuff.
    Last edited by Harbour, Oct 12, 2017
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  18. Rylo_Ken Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2015
    star 1
    I suppose he could pull a Luke and live in exile on Ach-To.
  19. Kyberfreak Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2017
    star 2
    I want him to be redeemed, and stay a dark side force user. He then teams up with Rey, and she's using light sided powers. Both is acceptable and part of the Force. Perhaps their common goal can be to fight the extremes, like Snoke.
  20. oncafar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    hah how can someone be redeemed and remain a dark side force user??? that means they remain evil, which means they are not redeemed.
  21. Kyberfreak Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2017
    star 2
    You don't have to be evil. Pain and rage is part of it, I think. You can be good at channeling it towards a good cause.
  22. ThreeDeathstickProblem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2014
    star 5
    TIL I'm half way to being a Sith.
    oncafar likes this.
  23. Kyberfreak Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2017
    star 2
    I just think limiting dark side to = Evil person, is wrong and perhaps the old teachings sheds some needed light on the Force and its use.
  24. oncafar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 4
    i think someone will have to explain how to make that work in a star wars framework because i can't see it. if kylo went to being more of an antihero or something, it's not really redemption imo, it's just being less evil. i think the riddick movies btw are a nice example of an antihero on a redemption path (though i suspect they will never finish the films). but i don't consider riddick redeemed per se - it's more that every movie ends with him discovering more compassion... but the entire riddick universe is set up way differently from star wars.

    but that's what i mean... i think the entire set up in star wars is that dark side and evil are one and the same... there are no dark side character who don't do evil things... not one example.
    Last edited by oncafar, Oct 12, 2017
  25. Kyberfreak Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2017
    star 2
    Vader helped Luke in the End by doing good. Why can't Kylo Ren? I think he'll feel betrayed and brainwashed by Snoke and harbors rage for anyone and anything like him. That's a cool thing to watch, a dark hero not pulling punches, but fighting for the good guys ultimately.