ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Snoke's "split you to the core" line (or whatever he said), was the ultimate best/worst example of telling and not showing. When Snoke said that my reaction was, "oh so Kylo IS upset about Han's death. Could've fooled me!"

 

I would have taken it as irony were I not already certain that it must have deeply affected him...

 

I've only seen the movie once, so my memory could be bad on that point. I guess I find the fact that the first thing he does after escaping Luke is to murder or lead the murders of his classmates really makes me believe that he was already pretty far gone at that point.

I kinda have a hard time with that point. While the novelization keeps her convinced of that opinion to the end, given that it's mixed with her conviction that she could pull Kylo from the dark side then and there (which the novelization does confirm that she realizes was a mistake when she's mulling over how Kylo's fate is his decision, not her responsibility), it really feels like she misunderstood everything about Kylo. Now, Episode 9 could prove that wrong, but taking TLJ in a vacuum, I really don't feel that the movie really did anything to suggest that Rey was even partially right after the double-whammy that Snoke was using Kylo as bait and that Kylo just wanted to be the new Supreme Leader.

 

DP

 

Imprisoned.

 

I feel as if he'll be killed tbh.. I don't think they're gonna go the Vader route again

 

Rey was wrong in her interpretation of her vision. She was also, imo, wrong in her apparent judgement of Luke’s thoughts re Kylo during that bedside incident.

Presumably, Rey saw that Kylo actually had been conflicted. But she had no idea what Luke saw in Ben’s mind. I believe Luke misinterpretted whatever he saw (because he hadn’t actually turned at that point, apparently), but his momentary reaction (and note that it was a fleeting moment of pure instinct) may well have been understandable.

We don’t know what Rey saw that she misinterpretted. We don’t know what Luke saw that (I argue) he misinterpretted.

I don’t think the narrative is presenting Kylo as actually pure evil. I also don’t think the narrative is presenting Luke as pointlessly committing the same mistakes he made in the OT. I think there’s important information we’re still lacking that makes true understanding of the Luke/Ben history nigh-impossible to really understand at this point.

 

Was Rey wrong in her vision? May be the point Kylo turns to the good side wasn't in TLJ? I believe If Vader could commit all the murders and atrocities he committed Then Kylo as well can be redeemed.

 

Wrong, yes. But only partly, I’m sure.

As to Vader...He died. Death through self-sacrifice generally suffices as atonement in stories. Imo the real question is whether we’ll learn something in Ep 9 that makes redemption and survival a more widely understandable option. I really thought Kylo would have a robust redemption arc in TLJ, and that he would end the movie dark but set up for redemption in 9.

As it turns out...no clue what they’re doing, now. The pacing makes redemption + survival a more difficult proposition after TLJ, imo.

 

But before Vader Died he saved his son and by killing the emperor. A similar fate could befall Kylo? Abrams Is done with the Episode 9 Script so we cant fathom how it all ends but Abrams cracked that nut already! Heck Filming for Episode 9 starts In July so what like 3 months away so Disney was Ok with what Abrams came up with which gives me a lot of hope. Disney/Lucasfilm wouldn't ok a bad script, not in there final of a 9 film Opus...

 

I could certainly see Kylo sacrificing himself, achieving both redemption and atonement. I feel redemption has been heavily foreshadowed so they must have had an idea of a plan in mind for a while.

 

I think Ben's situation is very different to Anakin's. Anakin was ensnared by the dark side and Luke helped free him. Ben seems to have no desire to be saved and mocks Luke "have you come to save my soul?" Anakin lamented that it was "too late for him" to be saved. In that scene in ROTJ, Vader became a sympathetic character. At the moment, we have no reason to feel any sympathy for Ben. But I think there is hope for him, though his road to salvation will be long and painful.

 

I don't think their different at all. He is in an almost identical situation with Anakin in ROTS. You are comparing ROTJ Anakin with Kylo which isn't quite right.

Where his situation differs from Anakin's is that his master is dead, while his "Padme" is alive.

 

I don't know if I agree that there's hope for Kylo at this point. But I do like the comparison you make between him and Vader.

 

Rey is more Kylo’s “Luke” than his “Padme.”

General Q: What coukd happen that would make Rey believe Kylo can truly be an ally? I was wondering, as his overthrowing of Snoke ended up not being such a sign.

 

That remains to be seen, although I can see parallels to both characters; Rey's going to Kylo in TLJ is very much like Luke going to Vader in ROTJ, while the "You have no place in this story" scene is very much along the lines of Anakin trying to talk Padme into joining him on his dark side-fueled quest to reshape the Galaxy in his own image in ROTS (with much the same level of success). At the end of the day, though, I don't think that Rey is either a Luke or Padme character, any more than Kylo is Darth Vader 2.0 (as badly as he might've wanted to be during TFA).

I honestly feel that Kylo has burned all his bridges and crossed the point of no return at this point ("We have everything we need"). However, it could be an interesting piece of drama if he does try to reconnect and have to deal with understandable mistrust that his past actions would've bred.

 

She’s been following Luke’s story beats, down to running off from training due to a vision and the throne room scene and the gunning down TIE fighters...and lots more in TFA.

“We are what they grow beyond.”

The only resemblence to Padme I can see is physical. And she resemble Luke as well, so that’s kind of a wash.

This stands whether or not one thinks Rey is related.

I expect both she and Kylo will stop mirroring their OT and/or PT counterparts in Ep 9.

It’s so odd...I had really thought we’d see more and more of a “good guy” buried deep in Kylo Ren, and that something would happen that would leave him very dark at the end of TLJ, but clearly set up to be redeemed in Ep 9. At this point, the pacing of any redemption arc feels really wonky to me.

I agree re the drama. I’m hoping, though, that Rey takes center stage in 9. Not sure how Kylo has a compelling redemption in 9 without everything centering on him. And yet I firmly believe in foreshadowing, so...I’m genuinely at a loss

 

Fair enough that there are strong parallels. I just think that the character's personalities and motivations are distinct.

It’s so odd...I had really thought we’d see more and more of a “good guy” buried deep in Kylo Ren, and that something would happen that would leave him very dark at the end of TLJ, but clearly set up to be redeemed in Ep 9. At this point, the pacing of any redemption arc feels really wonky to me.[/quote]

Yeah, unless Episode 9 does some heckuva hard work, I think that redeeming Kylo, based on the foundation of the previous two movies, would not work very well.

As previous posts I've made have indicated, I don't think that Kylo was ever the central character in the movies and that there hasn't been any good foreshadowing of a redemption for him, so I do seem to have a different perspective on things with him. Agreed that I hope Rey stays front and center in Episode 9; between the two, that's the character I'm invested in.

 

I don't think Ben is mocking the idea of redemption itself so much as he's mocking Luke because Luke is who pushed him into turning to the dark side in the first place. The person who hurt him is not who can save him.

 

In my opinion to redeem himself and atone for his crimes it would need there to be a greater evil, just throwing down his lightsaber and saying he's through with the Dark Side just doesn't work for me. The story arc of his redemption needs to be such that he is forced to choose between the Light and the Dark and I just don't see Hux as threatening or as seductive. Does that mean Snoke or a dead Sith Lord will be resurrected or a new Dark Sider will be created...I don't know.

 

I don't think that Kylo should be redeemed at all (or at the very least have a very murky moral status at the end of his story in the sequel trilogy). However, I agree that if he gets some kind of redemption, there needs to be more go a catalyst then him just deciding that he's done with it all, like having some greater threat.

 

Well, Luke hurt him...but it’s more complicated than that.

Rey offered Kylo compassion and belonging, both of which he rejected. Those things will not turn him because he’s not being driven by lonliness or rejection (despite feeling both). Something else is driving him, and whatever that is will be the key to his redemption.

Unfortunately, whatever Rey got from her vision and peep into Kylo’s mind, it wasn’t an understanding of what make him tick. If she had gotten that, she’d have known that what she later attempted wouldn’t work.

 

The thing to me is, if they are going to continue the Skywalker saga, they can only do it through Kylo.

And right now, I can only see a verly limited amount of scenarios under which Kylo survives and comes to live another day in a believable way.

 

Indeed. If Kylo is redeemed presumably we'll learn what drove Kylo to the dark side and how the dark side failed him and has now left him drifting back to the light side.

 

I very much hope that he abandons the dark side because he genuinely regrets what he did and wants to try to atone for it.