Should Lucas have begun at the beginning?

CJ

Did Lucas wrap up the story sooner than he intended? Yes, he did. But it was not for a lack of intrest on his part.

It was because Star Wars cost him his marriage and his professional life. He relized he had a family to raise, buisness to run and he wasn't about to put another ten years into finishing off the tale of Luke Skywalker.

And he did have an outline written out...not a full script mind you-but a rough outline of where he wanted the story to go and the key moments that happened during that time.

I do believe that by Empire Strikes Back, Lucas inteded for Vader to be Lukes father.
If you look at vaders rational of why he wanted Luke to join him, remember the line
"We can overthrow the Emperor and bring this destructive conflict to an end. We can rule the galaxy as father and sun"

Right here, Lucas begins introducing to the concept of two Sith.. In Vaders mind, he would become the Master and Luke would be the Apprentice Sith. The fact the Emperor agreed ment that he would have a YOUNGER apprentice who would be better than his father. Either Anakin would prove his worth, or Luke would replace Vader. The fact that in ROTJ, The Emperor sets Vader and Luke against eachother in a battle to the death underscores this point.

As far as Liea goes- She was chosen to be Luke's sister as of ROTJ (The concept of the other-which Yoda mentioned in ESB was Lukes Sister...but at this point it wasn't Liea.)
Again, Lucas thought to wrap up the series. Her force powers are more or less latented...showing up only when she "Hears" Lukes cry for help at Bespin. (and actually locates him) It is important to note that she doesn't actually show any great Force Power in ROTJ once she had discovered her orgin.

 

They really are making this stuff for kids who don't know any better or remember the way things were.

That's total crap. I am old enough to remember the "way things were" and I like the new films. I was around when ANH was in theatres in 1977. Don't make this into an age thing because it's not. These kids today like Star Wars because they LIKE STAR WARS. It's still cool to kids like it was cool to me when I was a kid. Yet I am no longer a kid and I LIKE the new films. That must mean something is being done right and is being done similarly to the older films.

It looks like SW to me, it sounds like SW to me, it feels like SW to me. Must be SW.

 

Well, if there were to be any more, Stryphe means they'd be better suited at the end rather than at the beginning. And I agree whole-heartedly.

This is what I mean. We don't need more than 3 SW movies, but if more should be made, continue on instead of go back to what we already know.


Star Wars is the story of the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. It started where it had to and it ended where it had to.

It is now, but not always so. If it was always so, why did he start in the middle, and at one point, why did he say he would not do the PT? (Or said he might not, in fairness, he never said he'd not do the PT, just said he might not).


Many assume that George has lost his touch or his skill at storytelling, when in fact he has simply chosen to tell a different type of story.

There is some merrit to this. However, not all criticism is about style. Some is about quality. And we have seen this debate before, with ROJ.


It was because Star Wars cost him his marriage and his professional life.

The movies made him billionaries, how did it cost him his professional life?

 

anidanami124 - Not an insult to kids, just a reference to those kids who have no idea what happened or what was involved in the original OT films. Beleive it or not some kids have never seen the original versions of SW, they've only seen the SE where Greedo shoots first, Jabba looks sick and Vader is polite in alerting the commander that he'll be arriving on his own ship!

Strilo - you may be old enough to remember the way things were but you obviously don't mind the changes unlike a large amount of SW fans who do! It may be total crap to you but to us what's come after is total crap and we don't swallow it so easily, that's why the Bashers Sanctuary no matter how many times it gets obliterated comes back with more posts than any other thread on these boards. Thats why in my shop where I sell Movie Merchandise, people HATE star Wars, they have no time for it, all they want is the original films and no matter how many times I have the same SW discussion with different customers, TESB is always their favourite and the Prequels all suck! I've witnessed first hand the deconstruction of the saga to a point where people are using it as a comparison to LOTR every time just to rubbish GL - He's hated more than Gollum! .. infact, people love Gollum. LOTR has become what SW was to our generation back in the 80's but even better. When Ep3 comes out next year it will be with a bang and a whimper, it will gross massively on it first week and then die out quick like any other summer release and leave nothing but a memory of what could have been because people just don't care that much anymore about SW; it's poor!

Lukecash - GL wrapped up the whole thing because he was losing interest it and they took too long to film, he said in many interviews that he didn't want his life dominated by SW and the filming process for these movies wasn't showing any sign of taking less than three years every time. He wrapped it all up and put it aside so he could move onto doing other stuff like more Indians Jones films, Howard the Duck, Willow and other stuff in film production - anything that didn't require him to direct any movies because directing was never in his heart.

He may have had an outline to what he wanted for the six part series but that evapourated when he collapsed everything into ROTJ. Once that happened the original outline for the first three films changed too, because now Vader had to be Lukes father and he also had to have twins that are now going to be Luke and Liea.

Now when Luke wants to overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son, that's not inventing the rule of two, the rul of two is something he invented for TPM. If the rule of two existed before that then the Emperor would never had agreed to allowing Vader to try and turn Luke to the darkside as an ally, that would meen the rule of MORE-THAN-TWo obviously exists or that the Empereor can't count.

Liea hearing Luke at Bespin has NOTHING to do with her powers and everything to do with Lukes. He called to HER, he used his powers on HER, she doesn't need to have the Force to hear him, it works that way otherwise the Force is useless. If She searched with her feelings and realized where he was before he even tried to communicate with her then YES, she would have had powers. But at the time of writing that scene, she was nothing more than someone close to him that he loved and needed to help him because Ben would not answer. There is no explanation for why if the two where always meant to be twins that she would not be bursting with just as much Midichlorians as he is and why being the only two possible Jedi applicants in the galaxy, Vader wouldn't sense that in her when in close proximity as he did in Luke when he was 100 meteres in front of him in an X-Wing Fighter out in space.

None of these things were ever in the original plan, like I said before, Vader and the Emperor wouldn't have begun talking in the third person perpsective about Skywalkers son in one film just so that the audience doesn't know he's Vaders kid and then blatant

 

Let's not "assume" anything about GL's personal life, we're really not in a position to do so

 

I started this thread here because I suspected that much of the dislike for the prequels and for TPM in particular arose not because they are poor, but because they aren't the story some people expected. For example, CJ seems dissappointed that first ROTJ and then the prequels have introduced shades of grey into Darth Vader's character. I, however, find shades of grey more interesting than pure black or white, which is why I slightly prefer the GFFA to Middle Earth (although the LOTR movies have been excellent.)

Also, I disagree that we already knew the prequel story. Yes, we knew how it ended, but not the process that led to it. I like studying history because I like watching events unfold even if I know the outcome.

The alternate stories proposed in this thread sound good, and I'd probably enjoy them. But I also enjoy this one. I believe more people would if that took this six-part saga on its own terms and not in terms of untold stories.

CJ
--The Rule of Two introduces no plot hole at all. It does, however, cast the Palp/Vader relationship in a different light. Vader's offer to turn Luke now means that Vader is trying to seize the opportunity to promote himself to Sith Master. Palps' 'agreement' to this now means that he is seizing an opportunity to replace Vader as apprentice and defeat the prophecy once and for all. Yes, we assumed in 1980 that they were considering that Luke be a third. That assumption turned out to be false, yet the story still works.

--Yes, Anakin does need his son as I described before. That's why he kills the Emperor at the end rather than let his son die.

--Yes, we assumed in 1980 that Vader couldn't possibly be telling the truth about Luke's lineage. (I remember intense debates about this at my school and even in local papers). But now that we know he was not lying, no plot hole is introduced. 'Skywalker' is a third person because "that name no longer has meaning for me." And Luke knows Vader is his dad as ESB ends ("Father!" "Son, come with me..." "Ben, Why didn't you tell me?").

What amazes me is how Lucas can rework is story into something that still works, with no large holes.

 

CeeJay, let's share a pitcher o' blue milk while I say a few words about Luke, Vader and the Emperor.

In ESB, Vader's exact words to Luke are: "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen it. Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

Thus, as early as the climax of V, Vader's true intentions are revealed. He wants to destroy Palpatine, take over the Empire, and make Luke his heir/apprentice.

In ROTJ, the Emperor's exact words to Luke are: "Take your father's place at my side!"

Thus, if Luke is more powerful than Vader, then Palpatine wants Luke as his apprentice instead of Vader.

No fan speculation is needed on this point, because the characters spell it out in the films: Vader wants the Emperor dead, and the Emperor wants either Vader or Luke dead! No "Rule of Two" is required to explain it, it just is.

 

You see, you're both saying it and not realising what you're saying!

If Both the Emperor and Vade can sit down and say that the Son of Sky walker will be a powerful ally. Yet they both at that moment are fully aware of the Rule of two, then how on Earth do either of them trust each other from then onward when it's obvious to both that they each intend on killing the other? Why would Vader then try to make Luke obey the Emperor and turn to the Darkside while the Rebils are attacking the Death Star if he knows that Luke turning to the Darkside will mean he will be made redundant? Why would the Emperor for any crazy reason beleive that Luke would turn against his own Father and join replace him as number two? They'd all have to be the stupidest bad-guys in the universe, they all seem hell bent on extinguishing each other as long as they can get someone else in the pack to help them do it.

What a load of utter rubbish, it's all patch work form the original intention that Vader was the guy who killed Lukes father and would try to get him to betray the Jedi the way he did, join him and use Luke to otherthrow the Emperor the way the Emperor used him to overthrow the Jedi. There was never a rule of two, it's a stupid idea, always was and always will be, it leaves no room to conoslidate any strength in the darkside as an opposition unless the Jedi are utterly stupid and blind as they are made to look in the PT or if the darkside is indeen much, much more powerful than the Lightside in which case they should never have lost in the first place.

From the very start when the Emperor spoke to Vader about Luke outside the Asteroid field, they both talked about the son of Skywalker, nobody else never once said Your son could destroy us, or your son must not become a Jedi. Luke was never Vaders son until GL in his eternal style of makiing things up as you go along decided he can work it around that Vader is infact Lukes father and wrap the whole thing up by making the last film about Vaders redemption instead of Lukes revenge as the original Title of ROTJ was evidently about. That is why Return of the Jedi was originally called Revenge of the Jedi, the collapse in story and new direction it took made Return of the Jedi make much more sense than Return so GL changed it along with some cock-and-bull story about the Jedi not taking Revenge etc etc. Bollocks! Obi Wan killed Darth Maul in revenge mode, he killed the Acklay in Revenge mode and if Samuel L Jackson didn't moan about not using his lightsabre, then Obi Wan would also have killed Jango Fett in revenge mode.

DellowFelegate - My reasons for not liking ROTJ and the PT isn't because it never followed my expectations, it's because they never followed GL originals intentions alongside the fact that they are so poorly made in comparrison to the initial two SW films. TESB wasn't what I expected, it exceded my expectations by a longshot but it also superceeded the original SW film in terms of direction and performances. The films after all fell well below par on not only TESB but the original SW and also had a strong sense of silly and unnecessary comic routines that were too bitter a pill to swallow.

 

First of all, TPM felt much more star-warst to me, than AOTC. However, I'd prefer to start it somewhat later, so that it could cover more of the Clone Wars and the OB/Ani friendship and all that stuff. It could be still brighter, even Jar-Jar and some kid-hero could be in it, if that's so important. It could start on some remote planet, which is elaborate and peaceful and shows what the whole Republic was like, set up a developing conflict in the center of the Galaxy, make it look like the war is avoidable, then let the war begin at the and of the first movie. Basically, what TPM+AOTC did, only without the 10 year gap and in one single movie .
Besides, we don't even see the Republic and the Jedi in their prime, the senate is already corrupted in TPM, and the Jedi are in decline (they became arrogant, their vision is clouded, or briefly, they are complete morons), so it would take another prequel to shows what were things like when the Republic really worked

 

Obi Wan killed Darth Maul in revenge mode, he killed the Acklay in Revenge mode and if Samuel L Jackson didn't moan about not using his lightsabre, then Obi Wan would also have killed Jango Fett in revenge mode

No Obi-wan did not kill the Acklay out of revenge. He killed it because it at the time was trying to kill him. So it became kill or be killed. Same thing with Jango.

For Maul that was revenge. He let his anger get to him which let Maul get the upper hand. So GL is right no Jedi would go looking for revenge. Defend and kill when need be yes.

 

I started this thread here because I suspected that much of the dislike for the prequels and for TPM in particular arose not because they are poor, but because they aren't the story some people expected.

There is some degree of this, but as Ceejay said, it's not our expectations, but what information we were presented by GL himself in the OT. If Luke and Ben hadn't mentioned Clone Wars, we wouldn't have expectations to see them, if Ben hadn't claimed Anakin was a good friend and great pilot, we wouldn't have expect this (why should we otherwise?), so on and so forth. GL himself gives us tons of backstory in the OT then core dumps it because he changes his vision. Then he doesn't even try to clean up his mess but leaves it to EU (which he dumps on in the same trilogy).

But that's not the only complaints - dialogue, acting, PS2 style confrontations, Jar-Jar and Yodaman (*shudders*) are others, and they have nothing to do with PT expectations. ( < not all my complaints, but some I agree with, more so in AOTC).

 

Darht Stype

It is now, but not always so. If it was always so, why did he start in the middle, and at one point, why did he say he would not do the PT? (Or said he might not, in fairness, he never said he'd not do the PT, just said he might not).

Lucas has said that the reason why he started with ANH was simple- It was the most exciting- and the bridge point where he could introduce the concepts without appearing unnatural it in one movie.

He didn't know if there WAS going to be a sequel. And at that, if Star Wars was a minor success, he decided to make a "cheaper" sequel that would be lower budget. It is important to note, since Harrison Ford did not sign a three picture deal-he wrote it without Han in it. Eventually this story became Splinter of The Minds Eye novel.

But once that Lucas had a big hit on his hands,and could affoard to do the story he wanted, he went back to the outline and continued the story...espcially when Harrison Ford signed on again.

ANH did not have episode 1V posted in it's intitial release...in its re-release and in ESB the chapter numbering begane.

Lucas had said after ROTJ, he was going to take about 15 years off before doing another Star Wars film. He was a little bit off (Spent a few years in pre-production)It was always brought up if he would do the PT, he had talked about the concepts in many interviews-but he was tight lipped if he was going to do it.

CJ

I agree, the movies made him rich beyond his widest dreams, Marcia Lucas was involved deeply with the first SW film but not at all with TESB. Waht ever problems he had in his personal life had nothing to do with SW, PJ and Fran Walsh have a perfect working and personal relationship when making movies. I donh't see them getting divorced after the first LOTR movies success.

Lucas had said that SW was ONE of the reasons he got divorce. He wasn't spending any time at home...Star Wars became his life. Because it was taking up so much of his time, because he felt he had to finish the movies while the actors were still young, he ended up loosing his family. He's said that in a 60 minutes interview, and an interview with Time Magazine for ROTJ, he mentions that he wanted to put the Star Wars movies aside for a while and raise his kid.

I also saw Star Wars from the begining, and thus an old timer....And I have absoulutely no problem with the PT as they fit with the OT. Lucas has said, that the PT will change the way you look at the OT. The rule of two fits very well in the machevelian backstabbing technique that had the Emperor/Vader trying to win Lukes heart. You could look at it two ways-these are my impressions-not neccisarily the what was intended: When Vader asks the Palpatine to concider Luke as an ally- The emperor realized that his apprentence was either A) Growing weak by caring about the boy and not obeying his commands B) Realizes that Vader IS trying to overthrow him but wants to lay a trap for him.

The fact that they do refer to him as "The Son of Skywalker" was done for two reasons. One obviously, they didn't want to clue the audience into knowing Luke was Vaders son. Second-the fact that to EVERYONE, Darth Vader killed "Anakin Skywalker"- he is no more....Vader is what he is and responds too.

As for Liea- one could look at her receiving the message as a force power and finding him as part of the "clue" that she has force powers. Or one could look at it that Lukes powers did it. As I've stated before-Lucas did change his mind about Liea's part at ROTJ. I think that one could say she hadn't used her powers yet..or perhaps she's been using Jedi Mind trick for many years and not knowing it.

But if Lucas has changed Star Wars to make the story fit better, then that is his right as Star Wars creator. The fact you cannot divorce yourself from what your beliefs at what the PT should have been.

As for the Revenge/Return title change-there has been a rumor for years that a fan actually wrote Lucas and said that Yoda had ment

 

CeeJay:

If the Emperor and Vader... are fully aware of the Rule of two, then how do they trust each other when it's obvious to both that they each intend on killing the other?

They don't trust each other. One has only to watch "The Godfather" or "Julius Caesar" to see that rulers through history--from Mob bosses to Roman emperors--live(d) in fear of betrayal by henchmen and trusted advisors. They accept the risk of assassination for the sake of satiating their thirst for power.
Same thing here. Same principle, I mean.

Why would Vader try to make Luke obey the Emperor and turn to the Darkside... if he knows that Luke turning to the Darkside will mean he [Vader] will be made redundant?

Because Luke "can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen it. Join me..." etc. Vader hopes that Luke will join the Darkside and help him kill Palpatine. Neat, huh?

Why would the Emperor for any crazy reason beleive that Luke would turn against his own Father and join replace him as number two?

Luke has tried to kill Darth Vader on at least two occasions. The Emperor doesn't have to convince him to kill his father! It's practically the kid's mission in life. What the Emperor seems to hope Luke doesn't understand is that by giving into his hate and striking Vader down, Luke would be giving into the Dark Side, at which point Palpatine would swoop in and complete Skywalker's conversion to e-villl.

They'd all have to be the stupidest bad-guys in the universe, they all seem hell bent on extinguishing each other as long as they can get someone else in the pack to help them do it.

Just like every political machination and internecine struggle since the dawn of civilization.

There was never a rule of two, it's a stupid idea, always was and always will be, it leaves no room to consolidate any strength in the darkside as an opposition....

Okay, the Rule of Two is a PT conceit. It's artifical and merely convenient to the plot machinations of TPM. ROTJ, on the other hand, works just fine without it. The murderous intent of master and apprentice makes for an intriguing subtext, IMHO.

... outside the Asteroid field, they talked about the son of Skywalker, nobody else never once said "Your son could destroy us, or your son must not become a Jedi."

What they say is that Luke would be a powerful ally. Vader declares, "He will join us or die, my master!" Later, Vader reveals to Luke (and the audience) that the Emperor has seen Luke's power to destroy him. I can't believe I have to explain the plot points of ESB here. This is madness!

 

Vortigern
Okay, the Rule of Two is a PT conceit. It's artifical and merely convenient to the plot machinations of TPM. ROTJ, on the other hand, works just fine without it. The murderous intent of master and apprentice makes for an intriguing subtext, IMHO.

But the murderous intent of master and apprentice leads to the rule of two. Sith Masters fear their henchmen's betrayal so much that....they allow only one such henchman at a time. Thus, the Rule of Two.

Stryphe
If Luke and Ben hadn't mentioned Clone Wars, we wouldn't have expectations to see them...

But you've seen a major battle of these wars, and are likely to see more in Episode III. At worst, the jury is still out on this. I've had to set aside some assumptions (such as that the clones would be the enemy) but as of now this part of the story still works.

...if Ben hadn't claimed Anakin was a good friend and great pilot, we wouldn't have expect this...

We've seen some of this too, although I'll agree that Lucas could have done a better job by, say, having Anakin actually save his master's life insted of talking about it in an elevator, or Anakin demonstrate that he loves Obi like a father instead of just saying it as they enter a bar.

CJ

(The Rule of Two)leaves no room to conoslidate any strength in the darkside as an opposition unless the Jedi are utterly stupid and blind as they are made to look in the PT or if the darkside is indeen much, much more powerful than the Lightside in which case they should never have lost in the first place.

Here CeeJay seems to have expected a straightforward good vs. evil story. So had I. But I find Lucas's actual story more intriguing on this point. Like many, CeeJay assumes that the evil Palpatine represents should be easy to recognize, and thus failure to do so indicates stupidity and blindness. On the contrary, however, much of the actual evil in the world looks innocuous in beginning stages. My historical despots (eg Hitler) consolidated power with the blessing of those they ruled because they were able to tap into and manipulate fears and suspicions. Far form indicating stupidity in the Jedi, Palpatine's effortless rise to power is for me a chilling reminder of how evil often enters the world. The power of evil is not in the way it forces itself upon us, but in the way it seduces us by masquerading as justifiable reactions to understandable fears. Thus, the very thing that frustrates CeeJay fascinates me.

 

Guys guys guys - It's not a question of expectations, its a question of what it orignally was and wht it was presented as. Vader was bad through and through. SW was all about good vs evil, the grey was a whimsical idea he decided to add to it in an afterthought while deciding to end it all. If Vader had any grey to his chracter then at some point in ANH w'ed have seen some sort of remorse to his actions, whether in torturing Liea, the destruction of Alderaan, the chance upon being in orbit around his old home on Tattooine where his very mother is buried and he grew up on. Nothing, not a glich - why? Because he was never meant to be Lukes father, he was always meant to be the oppositte, the evil guy who killed lukes father! This is why Lucas is busy trying to change eveything in the OT films before DVD release, this is why we will have extra scenes showing Vader in conflict added to all the OT films and line changes to all the dialogue. Because the whole intial story and it's intent changed with ROTJ collapse.

Vader in TESB had an eveil streak so evident that it was chilling. He had to serve his master because his master was powerful, his master learned of the existence or danger of the son of Skywalker late because he tells Vader about it in haste. Vader obviously knew about Lukes potential from the Death Star trench, he knew Lukes father who acording to Yoda was a powerful Jedi but also flawed because he had much anger in him which obviously would have been partial in his demise by the hands of Vader and the Emperor in the original story. Vader suggests turning Luke to their side hoping secretly to use that raw potential to destroy the Emperor as the emperor himself has forseen. If a rule of two existed then at that point alone the Emperor would have stated it or otherwise had vapourised Vader on the spot for even thinking to add another to their number for who else but the Emperor would have to die if Luke joins? At the same time if the Emperor said nothing about the rule of two and agreed then Vader himself would have realised he's just played all his cards and that his days are numbered because if the Emperor wants Luke in the two-only-club then Vader is soon to be bantha poodoo.

It makes absolutley no sense and then to change it all again in ROTJ make even less sense.

Here in ROTJ we suddenly see an overly compassionate and lenient Vader, he kills nobody who dissapoints him, he's bessoted with calling the person he merely refered to as "Skywalker" inthe last film as "My Son", he no longer talks of overthrowing the Emperor but instead wants Luke to join them or die; worse still is the way he emphazises that he "MUST OBEY HIS MASTER" this means there isn't a smidgen of a chance that he would dare think of overthrowing Palpatine and rubishes everything in TESB. Now even the Emperor starts calling him "Luke" or "Your son" instead of merely "Skywalker" and suddenly its a father-son affair everytime they discuss the boy. You can't honestly tell me you never noticed the change to the dynamic, you can't honestly tell me it never smelled of rotten fish kopping out?

Now we have a ridiculous situation where Vader who seems now to want to his son to be one of the bad-boys and serve the Emperor or he'll kill him in cold blood. Forget trying to destroy the Emperor because Luke tries that as soon as he summons his lightsabre into his hands and Vader stops him, he literally stops him so I have no clue what film everyone is talking about where Vader wanted Luke to kill the Emperor and maintain the stupid rule of two because that situation never existed past the collapse of the 9 part trilogy or before the PT films began shooting! Vader was protecting his master and he was trying to kill Luke if he will not turn to the darkside. Worse still he decided to forget about Luke and turn his attentions to Liea and that's when it gets super-silly. At what point in the fight Vader became death I really don't know but the Emperor clearly stated that he wanted Luke to kill his father and take his place so why in the wo

 

Guys guys guys - It's not a question of expectations, its a question of what it orignally was and wht it was presented as. Vader was bad through and through. SW was all about good vs evil, the grey was a whimsical idea he decided to add to it in an afterthought while deciding to end it all. If Vader had any grey to his chracter then at some point in ANH w'ed have seen some sort of remorse to his actions, whether in torturing Liea, the destruction of Alderaan, the chance upon being in orbit around his old home on Tattooine where his very mother is buried and he grew up on. Nothing, not a glich - why? Because he was never meant to be Lukes father, he was always meant to be the oppositte, the evil guy who killed lukes father! This is why Lucas is busy trying to change eveything in the OT films before DVD release, this is why we will have extra scenes showing Vader in conflict added to all the OT films and line changes to all the dialogue. Because the whole intial story and it's intent changed with ROTJ collapse.

ANH hasn't shades of grey because Lucas wasn't expecting it to be a succes. It's a the only SW movie that can stand on its own because everything is good/evil straight forward. Plus it shows us how reversed Anakin is(all good in TPM/all evil in ANH), keep in mind that he hasn't a clue about Luke at this point.

And stop with the "adding scenes" part because no part of that is actual fact.

Vader in TESB had an eveil streak so evident that it was chilling. He had to serve his master because his master was powerful, his master learned of the existence or danger of the son of Skywalker late because he tells Vader about it in haste. Vader obviously knew about Lukes potential from the Death Star trench, he knew Lukes father who acording to Yoda was a powerful Jedi but also flawed because he had much anger in him which obviously would have been partial in his demise by the hands of Vader and the Emperor in the original story. Vader suggests turning Luke to their side hoping secretly to use that raw potential to destroy the Emperor as the emperor himself has forseen. If a rule of two existed then at that point alone the Emperor would have stated it or otherwise had vapourised Vader on the spot for even thinking to add another to their number for who else but the Emperor would have to die if Luke joins? At the same time if the Emperor said nothing about the rule of two and agreed then Vader himself would have realised he's just played all his cards and that his days are numbered because if the Emperor wants Luke in the two-only-club then Vader is soon to be bantha poodoo.

The emperor needs Vader to deliver Luke to him, the only way to fully turn Luke is for him to destroy Vader - hence he keeps them both alive.

Here in ROTJ we suddenly see an overly compassionate and lenient Vader, he kills nobody who dissapoints him, he's bessoted with calling the person he merely refered to as "Skywalker" inthe last film as "My Son", he no longer talks of overthrowing the Emperor but instead wants Luke to join them or die; worse still is the way he emphazises that he "MUST OBEY HIS MASTER" this means there isn't a smidgen of a chance that he would dare think of overthrowing Palpatine and rubishes everything in TESB. Now even the Emperor starts calling him "Luke" or "Your son" instead of merely "Skywalker" and suddenly its a father-son affair everytime they discuss the boy. You can't honestly tell me you never noticed the change to the dynamic, you can't honestly tell me it never smelled of rotten fish kopping out?

You forget something, Vader not killing people who did him wrong did NOT start in ROTJ, it started at the end of ESB. Vaders confession isn't only to Luke, it's him admitting that indeed he IS still Anakin Skywalker. Something he trys to hide from both the Emperor and Luke(and himself from a POV).

I don't recall the Emperor ever directly saying to Vader "your son" or anything like that. But the fact that Vader refers to him as "his son" infront of Palpatine is pretty big, it's a

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>.Guys guys guys - It's not a question of expectations, its a question of what it orignally was and wht it was presented as. Vader was bad through and through. SW was all about good vs evil, the grey was a whimsical idea he decided to add to it in an afterthought while deciding to end it all. If Vader had any grey to his chracter then at some point in ANH w'ed have seen some sort of remorse to his actions, whether in torturing Liea, the destruction of Alderaan, the chance upon being in orbit around his old home on Tattooine where his very mother is buried and he grew up on. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

That's true, but that actually works quite well, because in ANH he isnt supposed to have any gray in his charcter. Did you see any gray in his character in TPM? No.

 

I agree completely.

 

Obi Frans - I aint complaining because it went the way I wasn't expecting, I'm complaining because it went the way GL wasn't planing in the first place. Once again you bring up the same arguements about Luke and Liea being related to Vader and the fact is that was never the original plan, not at all. That's why we have this nasty end to the saga with a confused bad who is tyring to kill his son in one minute and then deeply offended that his boss is trying the same thing in the next. And if you had watched any of the films then you'd see that when the Emperor arrived at the Death Star he says to Vader that he expects him to want to continue in his search for his son. It's Son, son, son all through that film where as in TESB at the point of Lucas not even entertaining the idea of making Luke Vader and Liea related, the Emperor and Vader only refer to Luke as the son of Skywalker. Luke is still very much deep with feelings for Liea as he had in SW and the love triangle is favouring Han Solo. The cut scene that one can only see in the original trailer where Luke and Liea kiss before Han, chewie and 3PO arrive in the medical bay shows the love triangle was still very evident at that point. Why would Lucas intentionally write an incestuous plotline into both SW:ANH and TESB if he intended Luke and Liea to be brother and sister, why would he even have them kis once, let alone twice? It's sick, it turns my stomach and it clearly shows how made-up as it goes this stuff is.

Further more nothing you said explains why if there ever was a rule of two in mind that the Emperor and Vader would so much of entertained the idea of adding to their number without realizing one of them has to die in order for that to be. It's stupipd, it's all made up as an end finale convenience because GL didn't want to make anymore SW films so he made the only other female chracter in the films Lukes sister, who was the "Other" Yoda spoke about and who also was to be the main feature in Lukes search in the next trilogy of films ending the saga. ROTJ sucks, it's GL's attempt to try and do the Muppet Show, he disliked the fact that all the bad guys were getting more attetion than the good guys from the young fans so he kills Boba Fett in a silly manner and turns the main bad guy into a good guy teaching us all to play nice and be good. he also throws in a bunch of care bears to boot and the whole vein of SW changed forever into a new vegetable from then.

The movies all suck now because of the change, and are now only for kids as far as I'm concerned, i have no interest in seeing jedi deflect laser blasts on the battle field and cut up battledroids galore. I want a real fight and i won't get it from the new SW that's for sure. Ep3 will be PG crap, just as badly orcestrated as the rest and full of bad acting and too much CGI as with the rest of them.

 

aint complaining because it went the way I wasn't expecting, I'm complaining because it went the way GL wasn't planing in the first place.

Your point? Is he not aloud to do something different then what he planed?

The movies all suck now because of the change, and are now only for kids as far as I'm concerned

They have always been for the young and young at heart. All five movies have been for young kids. But what's the problem with that? I like the fact that all the SW movies are PG and don't have blood and guts. I like the fact that sewer words are not used in the movies to the point that it is no longer fun to watch. I like the fact that they don't talk about sex sex sex.

Sure I will watch the movie Road Trip some times. But GL's SW is better then that it does not have to go down that low and have sex and nude scenes in his movies. You would not believe how many people think that would be so cool. But that's not SW.

There is nothing wrong with young kids getting a fantasy movie to watch that there parents can also watch with them. It's rare to see things like that in this day and age.

 

It's funny cuz I am not a kid nor are my siblings nor are my parents yet they like the new films as much as the old ones. The films are all Star Wars to them.

 

Good heavens. Lengthy dissertations and heady disagreement over ROTJ after twenty-plus years of its release! Yet the characters' motivations are far more simple than CeeJay seems willing to allow. At the same time, there is a layer of subtlety that I think is being overlooked.

Vader must obey Palpatine. This kind of warlord servitude, once undertaken, must include the proviso that the Emperor, displeased, can destroy his servant. At the same time, we know (from ESB) that Vader wants to destroy his master and seize the Empire. This means that Vader wants Luke to destroy the Emperor, while he, Vader, must defend Palpatine according to his duty. However, once Luke is defeated by Paplaptine, the usurpation plan has ended. Vader, confronted with a very human moment, does the unexpected and vanquishes the Emperor, destroying himself in the process. He must have know that was part of the bargain. Thus Vader--once a black-hearted (some say two-dimensional) villain--is revealed as a fully rounded human being who at least attempts to undo the evil he has wrought in his lifetime. In so doing he redeems himself and becomes Anakin Skywalker again.

It's all very simple, innit?

 

They have always been for the young and young at heart. All five movies have been for young kids.

The first sentence is true the second one is not. SW is for all ages - who are young at heart.


That's true, but that actually works quite well, because in ANH he isnt supposed to have any gray in his charcter. Did you see any gray in his character in TPM? No.

Threepio was mostly gray... and silver.

 

Once again you bring up the same arguements about Luke and Liea being related to Vader and the fact is that was never the original plan, not at all. That's why we have this nasty end to the saga with a confused bad who is tyring to kill his son in one minute and then deeply offended that his boss is trying the same thing in the next. And if you had watched any of the films then you'd see that when the Emperor arrived at the Death Star he says to Vader that he expects him to want to continue in his search for his son. It's Son, son, son all through that film where as in TESB at the point of Lucas not even entertaining the idea of making Luke Vader and Liea related, the Emperor and Vader only refer to Luke as the son of Skywalker. Luke is still very much deep with feelings for Liea as he had in SW and the love triangle is favouring Han Solo. The cut scene that one can only see in the original trailer where Luke and Liea kiss before Han, chewie and 3PO arrive in the medical bay shows the love triangle was still very evident at that point. Why would Lucas intentionally write an incestuous plotline into both SW:ANH and TESB if he intended Luke and Liea to be brother and sister, why would he even have them kis once, let alone twice? It's sick, it turns my stomach and it clearly shows how made-up as it goes this stuff is.

Well...the Prequels have it's forbidden love, so does the OT(okay so i'm reaching). Leia being the sister as a last-minute decision isn't being disputed by anyone. It just isn't a real fault in the story, it was more of a kiss to piss off Han anyway. Not like they went to a lake retreat on Naboo to do it.

It's hardly as "stomach-turning" as you make it out to be because the kiss itself is done in jest, no fancymusic-eyeslocking-bodylocking whatsoever. As nasty as it is in theory it's just not that serious that it ruins 6 movies by default. It still sets up them caring for each other(Luke cares for her the wrong way at first but straightens out in ROTJ).

& when the emperor lands he says "now i sense you wish to continue your search for YOUNG SKYWALKER". So your point is still void.

Further more nothing you said explains why if there ever was a rule of two in mind that the Emperor and Vader would so much of entertained the idea of adding to their number without realizing one of them has to die in order for that to be. It's stupipd, it's all made up as an end finale convenience because GL didn't want to make anymore SW films so he made the only other female chracter in the films Lukes sister, who was the "Other" Yoda spoke about and who also was to be the main feature in Lukes search in the next trilogy of films ending the saga. ROTJ sucks, it's GL's attempt to try and do the Muppet Show, he disliked the fact that all the bad guys were getting more attetion than the good guys from the young fans so he kills Boba Fett in a silly manner and turns the main bad guy into a good guy teaching us all to play nice and be good. he also throws in a bunch of care bears to boot and the whole vein of SW changed forever into a new vegetable from then.

They both realise one of them has to go, they both in turn decide for their own little scheme that Luke will be the one to do it for them. It still makes perfect sense.

He also kills Yoda in the movie, so guess again. Not every character can have his glorious classical death scene, i prefer one of the good guys to have his than one of the bad guys. It's basic storytelling.

You still act as if Vader in ESB wasn't ment to become a good guy, in some drafts he may not have. But the movie sets his arc up perfectly, you also manage to avoid the point that Vader at the end of ESB didn't kill off Piet & that he acts differently.

The movies all suck now because of the change, and are now only for kids as far as I'm concerned, i have no interest in seeing jedi deflect laser blasts on the battle field and cut up battledroids galore. I want a real fight and i won't get it from the new SW that's for sure. Ep3 will be PG crap, just as badly orcestrat

 

You know, A New Hope, THE Star Wars movie. I think the fault in SW is that after Empire people put the drama in SW OVER the fun in SW. When in actual fact all SW movies should be measured against ANH, a fun movie but yet a drama.

THANK YOU!!!

If people would look to ANH, the ORIGINAL film, and not ESB, as an indicator of "what Star Wars should be", we'd all be better off.

Fun > drama for SW. I can get drama anywhere. It takes Lucas and SW to give me scenes like Luke and Leia swinging over a space station chasm for some reason.




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