Should Lucas have begun at the beginning?

It did have to happen, maybe it wasn't to your liking and you dont get the point of TPM but that doesn't mean you should dismiss that TPM's importance is of far greater importance than you realise. But then you're complaining about a chapter that basically is the setup for the next two chapters.

So we should just skip the important introductions and early roads of important plot threads which weave through these 3 (and even the whole 6) films?

You're associating the film too closely with its events. Lucas could have written the film any which way he wanted, he was never obliged to write about a Trade Federation, nor was it mandatory to write about a little Anakin or an Obi-wan-in-training. He could have written the film without those elements, and the story would have gone along fine.

Somehow you're forgetting the fundamental things about this trilogy and even the OT as well.

"Whenever you do a trilogy, no matter how you do it, the first part is always about the characters. It is like the first act of a play. It says 'Here are the players. You have the good guys and the bad guys. The bad guys want to get the good guys and here are the relationships that exist among each of them. It is not until the second act-or, in this case, the second episode-that the plot really thickens. And it is not until the third act that everything comes to an end and gets resolved."

So basically Lucas disagrees with you, TPM had to be there because we needed to see the characters themselves before the real conflict or plot begins to be told.

Well, apparently Lucas doesn't even see it himself, since the characters weren't developed in the first story. The only one who did was Qui-gon, and we saw what happened with him. As JW00 has mentioned before, he was the buffer between characters; all characters interact through him. I don't think we ever see Obi-wan and Padme have a conversation until AOTC, Anakin and Obi-wan certainly didn't speak since Obi-wan was shelved away on the ship for most all of the Tatooine sequence, any interaction with these characters happens in AOTC. So much for the first chapter being "about the characters."

If you start where essentially AOTC started, then you lose alot of the early characterisation. You dont get the important first impressions and beginning points whereby the change in the characters later on is properly compared to.

We lose the "early characterization" anyway as the films stand, since characters like Padme constantly contradict themselves. In effect, we aren't the ones overlooking first impressions, they apparently don't matter since Lucas discarded them and basically started fresh with AOTC.

You even dismiss the important early story points which pay themselves off in the later episode. We needed to see Anakin's relationship with his mother, we need to see how Palpatine became Chancellor, we had to understand why Obi-Wan took Anakin as his apprentice, we needed to see the Republic and Jedi Order during civilised times before darkness crept upon them. Even the boring sounding Trade dispute with the Trade Federation is important to be shown because it becomes a key factor in what happens in the next episodes.

Like I said before, the film and its events are too closely associated. The plot of the story could have easily moved forward onscreen, where those things happened as well as things from AOTC. The fact TPM and everything in the Galaxy just sat there for ten years and then stuff started happening again, it causes the story to lose momentum. It would be like Luke losing the Lars, waiting for ten years, then finally doing something.

Well TPM was introducing the characters to each other, and to us the audience, thats what the beginning of the story is supposed to do. It is not until the second and third films that we really see the relationships between the protagonists build and strengthen.

 

You're associating the film too closely with its events. Lucas could have written the film any which way he wanted, he was never obliged to write about a Trade Federation, nor was it mandatory to write about a little Anakin or an Obi-wan-in-training. He could have written the film without those elements, and the story would have gone along fine

Well sorry, but thats the point you have to associate the film with its events, how else am I to do it?
And I disagree the story wouldnt of made sense in context of the whole trilogy. You needed to see the TF situation because then you understand why they separated.
A little Anakin, a good Anakin, was needed to contrast with the future episodes and to show how things go full circle by the time of ROTJ and the good Anakin we saw in TPM was back.
Obi-Wan in training, is a reference point to show a typical Jedi Padawan as opposed to what Anakin is like as a Padawan. Plus it also makes sense for why Obi-Wan took Anakin on, his own arrogance and impulsiveness made him believe in taking on Anakin and sets up the failure to follow.

Well, apparently Lucas doesn't even see it himself, since the characters weren't developed in the first story.

well they arent going to be are they? They develop over the course of 3 movies, just in the OT. But then I guess, thats ok for the OT but not for the PT huh?

The only one who did was Qui-gon, and we saw what happened with him. As JW00 has mentioned before, he was the buffer between characters; all characters interact through him.

I think thats the point. We basically get to see all the main protagonists from his point of view, we learn their beginnings and we see how he links them together, its only once he's gone that they become the focus, which sets the stage for the next 2 movies.

We lose the "early characterization" anyway as the films stand, since characters like Padme constantly contradict themselves. In effect, we aren't the ones overlooking first impressions, they apparently don't matter since Lucas discarded them and basically started fresh with AOTC.

I dont quite know where you get that. The characterisations stay pretty much consistent to me. Padme is still a very dutiful woman who puts her people before herself.
Plus the characters in AOTC still carry the characterisation from TPM, its just because time has changed them, we also learn where the TPM characterisation ends and the new aspects of their character begin.
Plus in AOTC he does have to re-introduce the characters to each other but because of their loose base in TPM. Once they are re-united, their bonds become clear and strengthen.

Like I said before, the film and its events are too closely associated. The plot of the story could have easily moved forward onscreen, where those things happened as well as things from AOTC. The fact TPM and everything in the Galaxy just sat there for ten years and then stuff started happening again, it causes the story to lose momentum. It would be like Luke losing the Lars, waiting for ten years, then finally doing something.

Thats a crap analogy. Sorry but you're talking rubbish.
The galaxy didnt just sit there for 10 years, if a separatist movement began during that time, Anakin's mother gained freedom then was kidnapped and Padme became Senator after resigning as Queen, I really dont think the galaxy was in stasis.
The film and its events are supposed to be closed associated because its a damn starting point. This is just a shadow of the events which will come to pass in the next two films.
In TPM everything is small scale, by AOTC & EP3 what was small scale has become a large problem and the main focus of the story. Its that simple really.
Thats why TPM's story had to be in and of itself, and quite detached from AOTC & EP3.

 

Is this a trick question ? the movie is called Episode One not Episode One and half.

In a sense, yes. I asked it, though, because I felt that many fans had wanted the saga to begin differently, and that this underlay much of the criticism of TPM.

Darkness seems to fascinate more people than do light and goodness, which are taken for granted. TPM, being where it is in the saga, has fewer dark elements than the other 5 films. I asked if setting the film 'later', so that more darkness could be in motion at the start, would satisfy some fans who didn't like TPM. The answer seems to have been yes; several alternate beginnings have been proposed in this thread.

TPM had, as I see it, two goals. First, it sends Anakin, protagonist of the saga, on his journey. Second, it creates the central problem of the saga which is to be resolved in Episode VI. It installs Palpatine in the seat of power.

A few smaller points raised by Loco-for-Lucas:

the Jedi are not heroic at all

But this half of the saga is not really about heroism, but about the rise of evil. The Jedi fail because they are not heroic, but are self-satisfied and complacent. Yoda comments on this in the films.

Padme falls for a whiney mass murderer

Padme's faith in Anakin is important to the saga because it foreshadows Luke's faith in his father, which also goes against all evidence and common sense.

 

A little Anakin, a good Anakin, was needed to contrast with the future

A good Anakin was needed. A little Anakin wasn't needed.

Obi-Wan in training, is a reference point to show a typical Jedi Padawan as opposed to what Anakin is like as a Padawan.
Why has Anakin to be such an "irregular" padawan in the first place? Why cant'he respect his master? Why can't they be friends, just like Obi and Qui-Gon (and as it was implied by the OT)? How is all this necessary? But let's assume he has to, then why can't the reference poit be someone else than Obi?
There are countless ways to tell the story of Anakin and the Empire. All what's needed is the Republic being something good (well, it isn't that good, is it?), Anakin being a good person, the Jedi being mighty, but with some flaws (we practically get only the flaws), Obi-Wan befriending and training Anakin, Palpatine rising to power and Anakin turning away from the Jedi and becoming evil. Anakin also needs a girlfriend/wife so he can have children. There are plenty of ways to accomplish these.

 

A good Anakin was needed. A little Anakin wasn't needed.

Well as Star Wars is a modern myth, having Anakin as a young child in TPM makes some sense because we get to see the hero in his early years. Besides what does it matter, we get a good Anakin so stop complaining.

Why has Anakin to be such an "irregular" padawan in the first place? Why cant'he respect his master? Why can't they be friends, just like Obi and Qui-Gon (and as it was implied by the OT)? How is all this necessary? But let's assume he has to, then why can't the reference poit be someone else than Obi?

Firstly because he is unlike other padawans, he was raised by his mother and inducted into the Jedi Order at a later stage than would normally be accepted. This causes problems for the Jedi because they aren't used to a break from the normal program, lack of flexibility. Besides Anakin needs a sense of independence and arrogance that helps lead to his own downfall, he has to have fallibilities like every hero which mean he fails in his quest and goes to the Darkside.
Anakin & Obi-Wan's relationship in AOTC is typical of a mentor/student relationship, especially when they have been together for the last 10 years doing missions etc. If things have changed in EP3 we may see more of a clear friendship between the two.
Plus Obi-Wan is the product of the normal Jedi system, how he is as a Padawan compares to how Anakin is. Whereas Obi-Wan is respectful and profession, Anakin is the complete opposite.

There are countless ways to tell the story of Anakin and the Empire. All what's needed is the Republic being something good (well, it isn't that good, is it?), Anakin being a good person, the Jedi being mighty, but with some flaws (we practically get only the flaws), Obi-Wan befriending and training Anakin, Palpatine rising to power and Anakin turning away from the Jedi and becoming evil. Anakin also needs a girlfriend/wife so he can have children. There are plenty of ways to accomplish these.

Well I cant see whats wrong with TPM & AOTC frankly. But then I'm actually accepting of the story Lucas is telling us. You dont like it, live in your ignorance because I want no part of it.

strilo edit: Let's calm down a bit. People who dislike TPM are not ignorant. Let's show everyone the respect we desire to be shown us.

 

Well as Star Wars is a modern myth, having Anakin as a young child in TPM makes some sense because we get to see the hero in his early years. Besides what does it matter, we get a good Anakin so stop complaining.

Not all myths have the hero as a child, and if Star Wars is a "modern myth," why didn't Lucas write Luke Skywalker as a child for ANH? It was Luke's story before it was ever Anakin's.

Firstly because he is unlike other padawans, he was raised by his mother and inducted into the Jedi Order at a later stage than would normally be accepted. This causes problems for the Jedi because they aren't used to a break from the normal program, lack of flexibility. Besides Anakin needs a sense of independence and arrogance that helps lead to his own downfall, he has to have fallibilities like every hero which mean he fails in his quest and goes to the Darkside.

None of that matters though, Anakin could have had the best training in the Galaxy, and he was still going to fall. The whole "separation of mother" crap needlessly complicates the scenario.

Anakin & Obi-Wan's relationship in AOTC is typical of a mentor/student relationship, especialy when they have been together for the last 10 years doing missions etc. If things have changed in EP3 we may see more of a clear friendship between the two. Plus Obi-Wan is the product of the normal Jedi system, how he is as a Padawan compares to how Anakin is. Whereas Obi-Wan is respectful and profession, Anakin is the complete opposite.

Latent hostility and incessant bickering is hardly a typical "mentor/student relationship." Were that the case, Obi-wan would have turned on Qui-gon long before TPM.

Well I cant see whats wrong with TPM & AOTC frankly. But then I'm actually accepting of the story Lucas is telling us. You dont like it, live in your ignorance because I want no part of it.

Hostility like that is what makes these kinds of threads unpleasant. Please, do us all a favor and either relax or leave for a while.

 

Hostility like that is what makes these kinds of threads unpleasant. Please, do us all a favor and either relax or leave for a while.

Yeah whatever. And dont tell me what to do. Maybe you guys should be the ones to leave, since you dont like the PT.

striloedit: Do NOT tell people to leave this forum. If you have an issue with someone posting here, you need to PM Stryphe or myself.

Not all myths have the hero as a child, and if Star Wars is a "modern myth," why didn't Lucas write Luke Skywalker as a child for ANH? It was Luke's story before it was ever Anakin's.

Why do you twist things around? If Lucas had made Anakin a teenager or the same age as Luke then he'd be called for his unoriginality (despite some of you bashers claiming different), at least he was being original and keeping with myth.

None of that matters though, Anakin could have had the best training in the Galaxy, and he was still going to fall. The whole "separation of mother" crap needlessly complicates the scenario.

No no no. Anakin if trained properly and with better care could of been a great Jedi and defeated his own demons. If Luke did it, Anakin could of as well, he was NOT destined to fall.
And the separation from his mother is not needless. I dont understand why you dismiss it so, why is it not understandable that such a separation at a young age can affect someone so vividly that sometime later when things come to a head and he finally sees her again only for her to die in his arms, he loses control and turns to darkness?

Latent hostility and incessant bickering is hardly a typical "mentor/student relationship." Were that the case, Obi-wan would have turned on Qui-gon long before TPM.

Well actually I see it as typical, especially when you have a headstrong apprentice with a by the book Master. And thats why Obi-Wan is different, he wasn't so restless as Anakin and had a more respectful relationship with Qui-Gon.

 

Terrious, he's right. Lay off him, and don't tell him where to post and not post.

Loco has been a courteous poster on this page so far (ain't read the rest). I'd continue more, but I see strilo is coming around to lay down modsmack as I reload the thread.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

stop

 

What was the topic again? It's gotten lost amidst all the needless acrimony.

 

I should have quoted the section I meant he was right about. The bit about hostility making these threads unpleasant.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Just to make sure everyone is clear, I asked for things to be kept civil in here. Please do not call someone else ignorant, it only escalates conflict. If someone does say something like that to you, PM a mod. We can handle it with much less waves. Lastly, do NOT tell someone they should not/can not post here for any reason. That is not your place.

 

LOL, all i was tryng to point out that you should be more careful with your "it was needed" arguments. And i don't think i'm the one who should leave. Everything i posted was related to the topic of the thread. Calling me ignorant has nothing to do with the topic.
As far as Anakin being a child, it wouldn't be wrong in itself, but 1) its unfortunate to have a 10 year gap between the episodes 2) Ben's memories indicated a somewhat older Anakin 3) i feel his rise and turn would be of greater impact if he were older, more responsible for his decisions
so if you feel the "separation of mother" effect outweights these disadvantages, that's fine, but for me it's the opposite.

EDIT: there's a 4) would he be older, he could have been played by the same actor in all 3 episodes, which would be clearly an advantage

 

Why do you twist things around? If Lucas had made Anakin a teenager or the same age as Luke then he'd be called for his unoriginality (despite some of you bashers claiming different), at least he was being original and keeping with myth.

You do not know for sure if it would be criticized. I actually imagine there would be less criticisms because most of the complaints about Jake's character ranged from him being too cute, too uninteresting, or too unconvincing a character. So, by having an older Anakin, that eliminates him being "too cute", and hopefully, by having an older actor, he would've given a more convincing performance. And instead of simplistic 9-year old dialogue, maybe we could've gotten more interesting, deeper dialogue since Anakin would be more mature. We could be introduced to more well-developed thoughts from a teenage Anakin. It could be much more engaging if the right dialogue is supplied for him. I can remember almost all of Luke's dialogue in ANH, for instance. I can't remember all of Jake's lines in TPM, even if he does have less lines. They don't ring through as boldly as Luke's. Of course, it could be I just didn't see TPM as much as ANH, but then, maybe there's a reason for that.

From the way I see it, I see more positives in making him older than negatives. The only thing most people do like about Anakin being 9 years old is basically to make it more shocking that this innocent boy could turn to evil (I think that could've been accomplished at any age -- see other threads) and to make it more heart-breaking that 9 year old Anakin is torn from his mother (I think that could've been accomplished at any age as well -- see other threads)

 

You do not know for sure if it would be criticized. I actually imagine there would be less criticisms because most of the complaints about Jake's character ranged from him being too cute, too uninteresting, or too unconvincing a character.

Interesting you say that JW, but its a kind of double edged sword.
I do believe whatever Lucas did, he'd have gained criticism because I dont think Lucas would deliver what the fans wanted or expected.
He would of been called on his unoriginality, because I wouldnt want a repeat of the OT with the PT.

Making Anakin a child, while not popular with some of you, is a perfectly legitimate starting point for that character. Whatever you think of Jake lloyd's acting, he portrayed a 9 year old kid and frankly I have cousins around the same age and well they seemed rather similar to him, in the way they are. So I dont find this a problem.

On to other points:
However childish Terrious is being, he has made a very sturdy and brilliant defence of the story of TPM and why it has to be to a certain extent detached from AOTC & EP3.
What I think annoys him (and myself to an extent) is the continuous questions which continue to drive this discussion further into ignorance and idiocy.
I'm all for discussion and pros & cons but this is ridiculous.

This for example:
There are countless ways to tell the story of Anakin and the Empire. All what's needed is the Republic being something good (well, it isn't that good, is it?), Anakin being a good person, the Jedi being mighty, but with some flaws (we practically get only the flaws), Obi-Wan befriending and training Anakin, Palpatine rising to power and Anakin turning away from the Jedi and becoming evil. Anakin also needs a girlfriend/wife so he can have children. There are plenty of ways to accomplish these.

It just shows stupidity, no offence to the poster in question. But we actually get all that in the prequels, its all there if you'd care to look instead of needlessly attacking the films because they dont fit your vision of Star Wars.
And as for the last comment in that paragraph, there maybe plenty of ways but you've not come up with any, and frankly your ideas matter squat against George Lucas, the man who created the characters and the story of Star Wars.

I do seriously think its time some of the fans just accepted what Lucas has done.

striloedit: The stupidity comment was uncalled for. Besides which, this forum is for discussion and that means discussion of what things people did not like and would change if they wanted. I am sure everyone who dislikes TPM understands and accepts what GL has done. They are also well aware that their ideas really don't matter much to GL. They are simply discussing what they would change for the sake of discussion. Let's remember that is the point of these boards.

 

Interesting you say that JW, but its a kind of double edged sword.
I do believe whatever Lucas did, he'd have gained criticism because I dont think Lucas would deliver what the fans wanted or expected. He would of been called on his unoriginality, because I wouldnt want a repeat of the OT with the PT.

But we have been met with a repeat of the OT in the PT. In TPM, we have a young protagonist leaving Tatooine to realize his true potential with the Force to help the fight of a pretty young monarch who needs to rush to save her people, and in the final battle, the blonde-haired protagonist destroys the large spherical base of the villains with one shot, and the film ends with an award ceremony that has the principle cast facing forward to the audience.

How is that for original?

 

How is that for original?

OK you got me there, but remember Lucas has been quoted as saying that Anakin & Luke's stories mirror each other, in the first chapters of their hero's journey its very similar.
Except that Anakin consciously took the hero's journey, whereas Luke let fate intervene to put him on the journey.

 

Interesting you say that JW, but its a kind of double edged sword.
I do believe whatever Lucas did, he'd have gained criticism because I dont think Lucas would deliver what the fans wanted or expected.
He would of been called on his unoriginality, because I wouldnt want a repeat of the OT with the PT.

Well, it's my opinion that making Anakin older would've lessened these criticsms considerably. And I'm sure if Lucas actually did this back in 1999 many of you would not even care either way, so I don't see why there is so much resentment towards these opinions. (Anakin was written as older in the original draft)

I personally wouldn't mind it if people call it "unoriginal." That's just one line of critique, yet in place of that I feel Anakin would be a stronger, more interesting character. (feel free to disagree, but don't call th eidea "idiotic" please) Furthermore, Anakin does not have to be written in the exact same way as Luke was, so he can essentially still be his own unique character. Maybe what you're imagining in your head is some carbon copy of Luke Skywalker in ANH, but I will say that even Lucas wouldn't do something so simple. Anakin could dress differently, speak differently, look different...

Padme is regal and diplomatic, and is not afraid to take charge and fire a blaster -- just like Leia. Yet, I have not read a single complaint about Padme being a copy of Leia (perhaps you could point me to one?)
Or how about Qui-Gon and his similarities to Obi Wan Kenobi in ANH. Both are wise and die right when they discover both Anakin and Luke respectively. I have not read a complaint that Qui-Gon was unoriginal and a blatant copy of Obi Wan. In fact, I personally liked those parallels.

I think you're assumption that one or two people will complain about the "unoriginality" in making Anakin older means, to take your phrase, "jack squat" compared to how much it could've improved the character(s) tremendously. It is like complaining about your beard when your whole head is about to be cut off (Seven Samurai quote).

 

It just shows stupidity, no offence to the poster in question.
Well, i certainly feel offended, since this is the second attack on my intelligence this evening. Needlessly, i have to say, because...

But we actually get all that in the prequels, its all there if you'd care to look instead of needlessly attacking the films because they dont fit your vision of Star Wars.

...if you would care to comprehend my point, you would see that i never said these weren't there (except where i excplicitly say otherwise). All i was saying those are the elements that need to be in the PT. Any more detailed plot is just one of the many possible explanations of those major plot points.

And as for the last comment in that paragraph, there maybe plenty of ways but you've not come up with any, and frankly your ideas matter squat against George Lucas
LOL, first you bash me for not coming up with ideas, than you make me know that you wouldn't care if i did, how kind of you.

 

This thread needs to get off discussing posters and back into discussing the films or I will lock it.

 

I may have to agree with JohnWilliams00 on this one. Heck, I think even George Lucas himself would agree with that post. If had had gotten an older Anakin, I'm sure there would've been A LOT less criticism. Take Hayden for example. Sure you hear he's wooden and what not, but he's getting a hero's welcome compared to poor lil Jake Lloyd. While I feel that people were completely out of line by insulting even Jake Lloyd considering he's just a kid, I did see why a lot of people didn't want a Darth Vader Boy. Lucas said somewhere that even he knew he'd receive flack for having Anakin start really young. But hey, he stuck with it.

Anyway I'm going to answer the original post in this thread and say that if indeed the movies had stayed the same story wise and acting wise, whatever, it would've been better if Lucas had started in the beginning. Why? Well imagine this. 1977 we get this HUGE SFX extravaganza as was the case for ANH, but pretend its TPM this time. People would've dug it, I'm very sure of that. Then imagine it going through AOTC, better FX, darker story. And then Bam! Episode III comes out. All this death and tragedy. Nobody would've been prepared for this massacre. That would've been a great setup for the sequels to come. I said this in another thread that the fact Lucas went backwards sorta destroyed the power of the tragedy that occurs in the prequels as we can pretty much figure what happens. But hey, he did, and none of us can stop it. Might as well attempt to enjoy them as much as we can or whatevers.

 

"Should Lucas have begun at the beginning?"

Nope. He should have ended at the ending.