PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

Here is my opinion: Movies are an art form. George Lucas was the artist that created Star Wars. If, let's say a sculptor, made 3 great pieces, and everyone loves them, that's great. If, 20 years later, he makes more sculptures, and a different group of people likes those sculptures, that's great too. If some people like both the old and the new, that's even better. But at the end of the day, what the sculptures look like is up to the sculptor, no one else. If you like the old, enjoy the old. If you like the new, enjoy the new. Etc. But no one really has a right to tell the sculptor that he did his sculptures wrong. They are what they are, and how much someone appreciates each one is up to them.

 

Oh yeah?

 

Again, what?! Defending that a filmmaker should do what he wants is not a defense for cinema? Try again.

That there's something wrong with TPM is your subjective opinion. Not a fact.

No, that's not how it works.

 

Concerning ROTJ and choosing the right people to run his LucasFilm, yes.

I loved Kasdan!

Until TFA.

Agreed.

 

Defending perceived poor execution by invoking the artist's intent is showing love for the artist over the art.

You should never let intent overrule perception.

 

I'm too young to know what fans felt when they watching TPM but now when I see TFA I think I understand them more
I think they expected something much better and more epic

 

I can tell you I did not expect something "more epic." In fact, one complaint I have with many films is that they shoot for "more epic" far more than they should. I did expect something much better. TPM, for me, was 4-5 good ideas wrapped up in a mediocre film. But we all love Star Wars here, and it's no surprise that with each new film, we hope for that kind of Star Wars that appeals to us most. For the most part, the PT missed that for me. Not completely, but enough that I was left feeling less satisfied than I'd hoped. TFA and R1 hit the right buttons for me.

Now for some folks, the PT delighted them. They are not "wrong," of course. I just want something different from them.

I think George's image of himself as an auteur did not serve him well. But as we live life, we have to make the best decisions we can. To quote Obi-Wan, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."

 

This is the execution was brilliant as far as I am concerned so "defending" it is easy just like defending ANH is easy. The art IS the artist in this case so showing love for the art and the artist is the same thing. For people who don't love TPM they are under the very odd impression that Lucas didn't achieve what he wanted when he clearly did.

They just didn't like it which is fine but this assertion that he either didn't get what he wanted or was wrong in what he wanted to get just doesn't work.

Fact is that it's arguable that Lucas on the PT was able to get more of exactly what he wanted than any other film-maker in the history of movies.

As the writer-director-producer making this trilogy with his own company and own money and technology that he helped to create and realize it's use.

That is virtually unprecedented control especially for films that people associate as being Hollywood SF/action blockbusters that of course are actually indy films.

"I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way."

 

I consider TPM and AotC to be the purest forms of Star Wars and Lucas in his prime as a master craftsman. For many of the reasons QRB listed. I'd also include the complete freedom he allowed himself story-wise in these two films. Not starting off obligatorily with Anakin as a Jedi Knight at the precipice of his fall as some were expecting, but I for one couldn't have been more pleasantly surprised and happier. He enhanced my childhood.

 

What's of note of course is that when he did what was more expected in ROTS (albeit still in so many unexpected ways and with the set-up of the two previous movies) then that was more acceptable.

As we've heard from many they can accept ROTS and even take TPM but AOTC as the set-up is something that doesn't work for them. They wanted that to set-up the hero Anakin talked about in ANH. Which it did but not in anyway, shape or form they expected or wanted.

 

Funny that for me personally the episodes that redefined what I love about Star Wars almost felt like the beginning of a separate series in some ways. I agree, those films just feel so "free" in terms of communicating an original, creative vision. Looking at the overall course of the franchise I sometimes feel it's a wonder that the creative environment of the mid 90s to early 00s happened at all. I feel quite lucky to have been there to experience it at a youngish age.

 

He couldn't possibly please everybody so he had a story in mind and he chose to stick with it and if people didn't like it that's the way of life I guess. I feel the PT kept the most important component, it is a children story with understandable morality so I'm glad he didn't decide to mature it up for the kids of the 70s/80s who became adults or to make a gritty movie. It is a kids movie about a young boy who wanted to become a Jedi and a queen who wanted to help her people all within the larger story of the twilight of the Republic and the Jedi order.

 

Qui-Riv-Brid are you serious like? The artists doing what they want is irrelevant to anyone who thinks the results are disappointing. If they satisfy you, fine. But if you point out it's supposed to be like that, plus they spent their own money so there then you haven't understood, and never will understand. Plus you are not defending the art.

The artists right is irrelevant. I've already stated that the artist mustdo what they want. But it has nothing to do with how I perceive the quality of the results. Because I think for myself, not for what George wants me to think about him doing what he wanted to do.

 

I don't agree with this. For one the art and the artist are not the same. You can dislike an artist personally, but still enjoy his or her art, or vice versa. There's also much more to art than just the artist's intentions. Perception is just as important. There are examples of paintings, where people have taken meaning from it, that was never intended by the artist. The relationship between the art, the artist, and the public is a complex one. Take the extreme example of Leni Riefenstahl. Obviously, perceptions of her art are different today, than in the time her work was made. I think few people would argue in favour of the artist's intentions for her film Triumph of the Will. It is the current perception of that work of art, which determines it's standing in the 21st century.

Also, people change. As such, the idea that the the middle aged Lucas who created the PT is the same as the young idealist who created the 1977 classic is a rather bold assumption. I also think the idea, that Lucas got exactly what he wanted, is flawed. Lucas has strengths and weaknesses just like the rest of us. These strengths and weaknesses determined to what extend he was able to achieve his vision for these films. Maybe he's completely satisfied with the final product, maybe he's not. Who knows? In either case whether Lucas is satisfied with his work is irrelevant to how I personally percieve his art. It is that perception, which drives my love for Star Wars, not the person who created them.

 

Certainly. In the sense that these movies and all movies and entertainment (which less face it are in the end totally unimportant but we like to pretend they aren't). It's a nice fantasy we allow ourselves.

Quite. I already said that. They don't have to like it of course. Clearly in the case of Star Wars and with the PT in particular Lucas got to do pretty much exactly what he wanted. Few others in movies can say the same of their movies or to the same degree as well as in the context of actually originating not only a movie but a series of movies of their own from scratch that are not from books, comics, plays or other series or movies with scripts written by someone else based off ideas or concepts by someone else.

Which I said as well. It's not about what I want. This is Lucas' story. So for example JJ with TFA is just someone playing in Lucas' universe. If Lucas had actually made TFA himself then it'd be my least favorite of his works but it'd still be his work so I'd be looking for his meaning to do it that way. While with JJ I think it was not such a great way to go.

The artist is the one who makes it what it's "supposed to be". I am "defending" the artist right to make his art.

The artists right is totally relevant to themselves. Lucas is an artist. Not everyone is or at his level. The underlying premise I use is that Lucas knows pretty much exactly what he is doing the vast majority of the time in terms of the end result but is open on the journey. He didn't know exactly what he was going to do ahead of time but by the time he got to the end he had figured most of it out.

I think for myself as well. I think about what it is that he is saying in HIS story. There is no point in trying to think about what you wanted him to do because he wasn't ever going to do that.

It's far more interesting to look into his story that exists than worrying about ten thousand others that don't.

We can fan fic all we want and the new movies are fan fic. I wish Lucas had done the l VII but he didn't want to so instead we get a VII.

 

I'd argue otherwise. Despite some of the child-oriented aspects of The Phantom Menace and the general trappings of the Star Wars universe as a whole, what we got concerns itself with much more complex themes than what we may have gotten with what many of the trilogy's detractors claim to have wanted (i.e. something that was more in the vein of the original or sequel trilogies).

 

Compared to the OT/TFA I agree what we see in TPM is much more complex in terms of it not just being an adventure story focused on a small cast of characters.

 

I can agree that Lucas tried to do something more complex than the OT.
But to me, he didn't quite succeed due to some poor execution.
So what I got was more complicated and contrived than complex.
And given the choice between a simple story told well and a complex story told poorly, I would most likely prefer the former.

To take a Star Trek example, first season TNG is probably the closest to Gene's vision for Star Trek.
Is it the best?
Not by a long shot. To me it is the weakest season of TNG and one of the weakest Trek season overall.
TNG and DS9, to me, got some good episodes when they decided to ignore some of Gene's rules and went outside of the "Roddenberry box" that he had created.

@ezekiel22x

Prior to TPM I agree that Lucas probably didn't much ponder fan reaction.
Not to say that there isn't fanservice in TPM but it does fell that Lucas is trying something new.
After TPM?
Now I think fan reaction or even audience reaction came more into the picture.

I do think that if Lucas had done all three PT films at once, TPM, AotC and then RotS and then released them. Then I think the last two might have been a bit different.

@ObiWanKnowsMe

I am not sure I agree.
To me this seems to argue that Lucas not only knew exactly what would be in the PT but also how F/X would advance over the years.
Some crude CGI did exist in 1983 but I doubt Lucas knew what you could with it 20 years later.

And the basic story in the PT films, you could do it using 80's effects.
Sure Jar Jar would be guy in suit, the droids would be guys in suit or animatronics, Yoda would not fight but you could do the films.
They would be different yes but same basic story.

As for why Lucas didn't make the PT after RotJ.
One he was burned out on SW and two, it had cost him his marriage.
More than that, based on what I've read, since Marcia Lucas owned part of Lucasfilm/Skywalker ranch/etc and she wasn't interested in them anymore, he had to buy her out. This cost a lot and afterwards, Lucasfilm could not make another SW film even if Lucas wanted to. They would need another studio to come in.

So Lucas was tired of SW but when he began to see what you could do with CGI, T2, Jurassic Park etc, he got interested in doing the PT again. He knew that the interest in SW was still there and he had new ideas himself and was interested in SW again. And he could now do stuff he could never do before.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Qui-Riv-Brid You are absolutely right. And as I've always said. The artist has the right to tell their story as inadequately as I or anyone else might think they have.

Anyone who ponders how the story wasn't told as well as it might have isn't writing fan-fic. "Fan-fic" is just a lazy way of implying that the finished film was the only way for the artist to have told their story.

 

I think TPM would have been better if they had introduced Anakin more older with about 11-12-13 or 14 years of age would be fine

I think they should have made the slavery of Anakin more depressing because one of the biggest mistakes of TPM is that Anakin is a child who enjoy his slavery thing that could never happen in real life and that not make you feel empathy for Anakin

 

I don't think SW should be any more depressing. There are enough depressing movies already. TPM was meant to be light, remember? The following episodes, especially III, are much darker. So the first one should kind of be a contrast. He didn't really enjoy slavery, rather enjoyed doing some things like pod racing, despite being a slave. This is not the same.

 

If but they would have written better the subject of the childhood of Anakin I would understand more to Vader knowing that he suffered since the childhood

 

Well he did suffer a lot, even though TPM didn't dwell on that aspect. That was done in II and III. If what happens to him at the end of ROTS isn't suffering, then I don't know what is. And being separated from his mother at that age is pretty cruel as well. So when you really think about it the prequels are pretty depressing, and darker than ESB. That movie is the only SW movie in which no major character dies. Frankly I don't even want to watch the prequels when in a low mood, because they can sure put you down. If I want to improve my mood I watch something other than the prequels, maybe light comedy, but not SW, better solid sci-fi like Aliens. Even discussing the prequels can put me down a little, so I need to distance myself from SW altogether for a while, just to feel less negative. Even though I like the prequels in general, they sure were not made to feel good. And now I find myself bashing them too, even hating them a little, if for different reasons. They can be very difficult to watch in certain situations.

 

The impact of Anakin's childhood relating to his becoming Vader has less to do with the harshness of it and more to do with his feeling powerless. He isn't in control of his situation and is at the whim of Watto. The true issue is being separated from Shmi and his attachment towards her, which is stronger when he is nine versus fourteen or even eighteen.

 

I still mostly blame the Jedi for his situation. I always felt they weren't doing enough for their "chosen one". They were all pretty blind to what was going on. It's a nice theory to try to eliminate attachment "issues", but it totally ignores human nature. So what else did they expect when Anakin chose to become a Sith? In TPM they come across as too fixated on ideology with little humanness. They believe in some prophecy of balance but totally overlook the human being behind that.