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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth DoJ, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Seriously, this place got destroyed as well? :eek:
    [​IMG]

    No, Lucas shouldn't have done more to please fans. He could have worked some more on coming up with more original place and proper names. I know it's not just Lucas but different authors too. It couldn't hurt if those didn't use names that already exist on earth, though maybe with slightly different spelling, not to avoid confusion but to make things a little more original.:D
     
  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Sure I feel sympathy, but overall the impact of such events is much larger if I'm attached to specific characters, or if I feel connected the those characters. The fact that "they're the good guys" is not enough in of itself to create a connection with a character. For example, it didn't affect me very much when Mace Windu was blown out of the window in ROTS. For one, I didn't really like the character. Secondly, the character of Palpatine was much more charismatic. So, to an extend I was actually rooting for the bad guy.

    I disagree, Yoda and Mace could have been warmer more empathetic characters, like Obi-Wan in ANH, without adjusting the core of the story. Priests cannot get married or have children, but this does not imply they have to be cold and detached.

    The bolded part is what makes him a less sympathetic character for me. Anakin is ultimately self-serving, and get's what he deserves to an extend. This is not tragic for me.

    Ultimately it's all about balance for me. If you're going to present a detached character, you need a passionate one to keep things in balance. You cannot just have stiff characters in my book.
     
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The tragedy is his self-serving traits were the result of trusting someone that he looked up to and admired, who was giving him bad advice and encouragement. He was being given conflicting messages and went with the ones that sounded right.
     
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  4. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I really would have liked if Lucas had conducted broad and in-depth polls of SW fans and break them down into specific areas of things fans desired to see. Then, he could compile a list of those things and write his script and check off each one as he included it into the story.

    That would have alleviated all disappointment from fans.
     
  5. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I wish he'd made a better movie.
     
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  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The impact there comes from what Anakin has done. Having some overt sympathy for Mace to me would really get in the way. If Mace were that kind of character then he's less likely to do what he did or it's out of character. Mace is already throwing off the Jedi Code he is committed to. That's one of the problems is that Jedi have this contrast being the code of the Jedi and the underlying way of the Jedi.

    You can argue that Mace was doing the right thing deciding to kill Sidious or the wrong thing. If he had done it the Jedi way of Luke then he doesn't strike a helpless man down so Anakin does not have to act to stop him. That the whole thing was false was another matter but he didn't seem to know it.

    Again that Lucas very specifically made Palpatine such a charismatic figure and someone you could "root' for as opposed to the cold Jedi is very clever on his part. We as the audience are as drawn to him as Anakin is. Don't think that Lucas wasn't thinking about this. It just doesn't happen accidentally but with purpose.

    It'd be the easiest thing in the world for Lucas to approach Anakin and the Jedi as you would want. If anything that is the way I'd suspect that just about anyone else who was doing the story of the prequels would handle it because that would be the expected way.

    Everyone else except George Lucas that is.
     
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  7. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    [​IMG]
    DISCLAMER FROM GEORGE LUCAS
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    They weren't blaming him. All they said was that if he wanted to be a Jedi, he had to let go of such things. He could either hold on to his attachments, or he could be a Jedi. He was free to choose either one, but he just couldn't have both. Yet he wanted both. He wanted it all.

    Being a Jedi is an honor and a privilege. It isn't a right.
     
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  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I'm really not sure about that! At that point did he have a choice? When facing the negative reception by the council would the Jedi just have sent him back if he chose not to be trained? Sorry, this attachment thing seems more absurd to me the more I think about it. This could be because being a convinced agnostic I don't follow any sort of religion or philosophy in real life. Did he want it all? As a kid in TPM he wanted all? Or was he being pressured into making a choice maybe? The more I think about it the more absurd the strict Jedi code appears. If anything, it could be I wanted the Jedi to be more Taoist than close to the major real life religions, you know, closer to nature and natural emotions? Maybe it's just me, but strict moral religious codes and rules don't fly with me, so I have a hard time getting my head around what the Jedi really want and preach. Like I said, absolutely not sure about any of that at all.[face_dunno]
     
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  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    You're making false analogies and equivalencies. The Jedi being wary of attachments has nothing to do with theism or religion. It has to do with a philosophy of complete selflessness, altruism and dedicating one's life to a greater cause. Attachment is a selfish act. It's you wanting something and not being able to let go of it. The Jedi are not far from nature nor are they ignorant of emotions. On the contrary. They know emotions and the consequences of acting on those. That's why they are trained to control them instead of the other way around.

    Not sure why you think it's absurd or so hard to understand when Lucas made the effort to expose their philosophy and wisdom in very basicways so that even kids can understand and learn from it.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Council would leave his fate up to Qui-gon, who would train him without their consent. But he would not be recognized as part of the Jedi Order.

    Anakin stated that he had a dream that he was a Jedi and had come back to free the slaves. He then states that his being a Jedi is something that he's wanted to do. There was no pressure from Qui-gon for him to accept being a Jedi. Shmi leaves the decision on his shoulders because it is his choice to make, not her's. He makes the choice of his own free will.


    The Jedi aren't preaching control over their emotions because they are a religion. They're preaching that Anakin, like all other Jedi, must face the darkness within themselves and let go of it. That darkness is fueled by fear, anger and hate which is coupled with possessiveness, obsessiveness and jealousy. All are encompassed in the shadow of greed. A Jedi must have no attachments to people and to themselves. They must be completely compassionate towards others. They can love, but they must love unconditionally. For Anakin, love to him was possessive love. The desire to hold onto people and place the needs of himself above all other concerns. Compassionate love is thinking of others and being willing to let them go, when the time comes. When nothing more can be done to save them without crossing a line.

    The Jedi don't say this lightly. It is wisdom acquired from their centuries of conflict with the Sith. The Dagoyan Masters, the Shamen of the Whills and the Priestesses all understand this as well.
     
  12. Gobi-1

    Gobi-1 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2002
    No. He knew he was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. No matter what he did he was going to disappoint somebody so he stuck to his blasters and made the film he wanted to make.
     
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  13. StarGuppy

    StarGuppy Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Exactly this.
    I so often hear that George didn't do this or that right, or that such and such is 'flawed' or 'isn't accurate' or 'isn't Star Wars'. But the bottom line is that no matter what George does, whether anyone agrees to it or not, it IS Star Wars. If he makes it and says it's so, that's it. No arguments. We can put it to a vote as to what is appropriate for 'our' universe, but it's George's universe and we're just fortunate to be guests in it. The least we could do is be gracious guests and not complain about the perks. No two opinions are exactly alike, so if fifty fans each took a shot at making a Star Wars film you'd have fifty very different Star Wars films, and lots of other fans saying they're wrong or flawed for one reason or another. It is what it is. If I see something in Star Wars that I would have done differently, I just say to myself, "Wow, that vision belongs to George, so it's the real deal." I couldn't say that about anyone else.
     
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  14. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Which Obi-Wan has internalized REALLY well in TPM! His snide remarks on all those "pathetic life forms" show a lot of arrogance compassion to be sure. Unconditional love? Sure, there all the time [face_laugh]
    Qui-Gon was more or less the only one who practiced what he preached.
    So Anakin said. Again, personally I can't relate much to this philosophy, as I don't like being told how to love. Not criticizing Lucas or the story; it has to be that way to make sense. Just that I myself don't find the philosophy particularly attractive.
    All this is non-canon, so....
     
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  15. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    He was TEN. My goodness, what an entitled child, thinking he could be a knight and help others AND a relationship with his mother...

    As far as I can tell in modern society, we don't judge children that way.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    QUI-GON: "He is head strong and has much to learn of the Living Force."

    Qui-gon understood that Obi-wan had more to learn about being more sensitive towards all life forms. This is something that comes over time which is why he's more tolerant in the rest of the Saga.

    So you advocate being selfish in a relationship? Being possessive? Jealous of the person that you love having friends with someone that you suspect might be trying to steal them from you? Your parents teach you right from wrong. They teach you to be a good person. Some of it is something you don't even realize.

    Uh, it is canon. TCW, "Rebels" and the novelizations are canon.

    The Council told him that having fear in his heart for his mother was not a good thing. That that fear will lead him down a dark path. The fear of loss is what gave us this...

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Remember kids:

    The only way to rise from poverty is to be born with better genes than everyone else, and be lucky enough for the Theocracy to find you.
     
  18. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Holy crap. That is so harsh, but I really can't argue against it.
     
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  19. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    The Jedi can't have relationships so they wouldn't know about that. They preach unconditional brotherly love for all beings, so jealousy doesn't even enter the picture. Again, I was talking about TPM Anakin and TPM Jedi. For a kid feeling sad and frightened about being torn away from his only family is possessive, jealous and selfish?? OK... I give up, seriously. If this is the kind of philosophy you would cater to in real life then be my guest. It's not MY goal and letting go of all attachments doesn't make me a better person but a heartless emotionless robot. Cutting off contact with family is not considered the proper way to become a better person where I come from. It reminds me slightly too much of real life sects/cults for comfort, and I want nothing to do with those whatsoever, period. I will not be talked into any of that. I hope Lucas wasn't trying to allude to those sects when he made the Jedi. If so I will root for Sidious and the Sith the next time I watch SW. Fine if you relate to all that Jedi ideology, but it's not for me, as I said. End of story.
     
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  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Yeah! Remember: Tons of classic myths and fairy tales also totes preach genetic elitism. Why they've been lost to history, every one.

    No wonder there's been a backlash against princess stories in recent years! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

    (Somebody should really warn Disney.)
     
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  21. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Meh, I think that's where I think Lucas took it too far. I can see why controling your emotions is important, and such, and why this is an essential part of Jedi training, but a child fearing to loose his mother is not a path the the dark side. It is a completely natural attachment between mother and child, that ensures the survival of our species. I think the argument, that the Jedi's lack of concern for Anakin's mother's fate is a more convincing catalyst for Anakin's turn, than his pre-pubescent fear for losing his mother, a fear that turned out be be justified.
     
  22. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    It is also good that he felt no attachment to the Jedi kids. Made it easier to slaughter them. He did not mourn them, but celebrating their natural life cycle. That's why cults are so healthy.
     
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  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    At the end of ROTJ, Luke continuously protests when his father says that he is dying. He keeps telling him he's going to save him and that he won't leave him. Kinda like Anakin was with Padme except that Anakin is already dying and has told his son that it is unavoidable, and Luke still tries to defy hus father's will. It's as if what Luke wants is more important than what his father wants or what is the natural way of things.

    So Luke should be slaughtering people left and right as we speak, if we apply the same dogmatic simplicity to explaining inevitable cause and effect to the son's behaviour as the father's.

    Maybe it's because Luke had an ostensibly normal, nurturing family upbringing instead of instantly being thanked fir leaving his home and mother behind by receiving the mark of sin of attachment to his unnecessarily estranged single, enslaved parent and inexplicably not given the usual training that had successfully indoctrinated generations of infants. And maybe because the expressed desire to not just let a loved one die, and the desire to continue sharing each other's lives if possible is not the prelude to inevitable evil doing.
     
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  24. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Except that Luke didn't lose it when his father died, instead he brought back his body to give him a Jedi burial. He seemed pretty peaceful to me.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    No different from Mutants in the Marvel Universe and Metahumans in the DC Universe.

    It would be going too far if he went bad a year later. But this was ten years later that he kills the Tusken Raiders. This is following ten years of being taught that fear of loss is a path to the dark side. That fear leads to anger and hate and ultimately to suffering. This is after being told by Palpatine that you will be more powerful than any Jedi, even Yoda. After spending years growing arrogant about your abilities. This is what happens when you let your emotions control you, when the power you use is fueled by negative emotions and you let the power control you.

    And his father tells him that he will die no matter what. Luke accepts his father's death and has learned to let go of him.

    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.


    Luke learns to let go of Anakin the same way that Obi-wan learned to let go of Qui-gon when he died. Anakin couldn't let go of Shmi and he never tried to, which is why he says what he says at her grave and does what he does later on.