Saga Should Lucasfilm have shown Maul have more of an influence on Anakin/Vader?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Sitara, Jan 23, 2013.

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  1. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    In the dinner scene in TPM Anakin tells Qui Gon that 'No one can kill a Jedi'.

    Wouldn't it have been better IMO if Darth Maul had killed Qui Gon in front of Anakin's eyes? And then, they both have a bit of an eye contact...and Anakin begins to realize the Dark Side and the Sith are more powerful than the Light Side and the Jedi.

    Maybe Maul senses Anakin's potential and subtly starts influencing him to become a Darth, possibly as his own apprentice to take his place when he decides to become the master and kill Sidious?

    Note, this is not a 'Should Darth Maul have survived' thread. We already have that in the PT forum. This is basically me reminiscing about a missed oppertunity to have a Darth that predates Vader by a long time influence Anakin from the get go towards turning to the Dark Side.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    You'd have to have a bit of major rewriting to do this - Anakin wouldn't destroy the ship in space, or Qui-Gon died differently...

    Besides, Anakin wasn't supposed to be this kid who gets this idea being a Sith is the way to go - he's supposed to be a good man turned bad by his choices later in life.

    So I'd say no.
  3. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    A neat line which leads to a wistful correction from Qui-Gon: "I wish that were so."

    The much-maligned objection from Anakin to Padme's "rational" rejection of his advances in the fireplace scene echoes this line: "I wish I could just wish away my feelings, but I can't."

    Anakin's destiny is subtly influenced by a host of variables in TPM. It is better for it being subtle than overt, IMO.

    I'm sure that that would have cut him up -- pardon the pun -- ten times worse. Better, I think, that the Sith were this peripheral menace to begin with (The PHANTOM Menace, remember), and Anakin was slowly inculcated into their ways through the supple, soothing tones of Palpatine and his mannered machinations.

    Maul is an outside, entropic "other". In fact, if ever there were a racist caricature in TPM, Maul would be it: a scary, strange-faced unknown. The fact that he actually tries to kill Anakin seconds after Anakin leaves home, probably not knowing who he really is, is that much better a scenario, IMO.

    The thing about the prequel trilogy is that Anakin is doomed never to know his mirrors. Maul coming within a hair of ending his life, but then the two of them not crossing paths again -- never the twain shall meet -- is a pretty cool way to tell the story. Maul, in many ways, is actually Obi-Wan's dark mirror/dark hammer ("maul" means hammer). He even literally appears before the Jedi between parting doors, before they do battle, hinting at this split in psyche. (Watch the laser gate sequence closely, too).

    Maul, as presented, is also more of a lackey/assassin-type figure. He seems too young and apparently indebted to his Sith master to pull anything off at this point in his life. Maybe he was trying to baptize Obi-Wan -- baptism by fire/red gates/red sword -- into the Sith ways to crack his soul and have a partner-in-crime for later. I don't think Maul would even have had the patience to teach Anakin to shave.

    But Maul's slaying of Qui-Gon, while Anakin was busy listening to Qui-Gon's advice and remaining in the N-1 cockpit, probably tore him up for a long time after. We see his sad face at Qui-Gon's funeral as he ponders the loss of Qui-Gon and the uncertainty of his own fate. He voices this uncertainty and it leads to the first words of comfort from Obi-Wan, combined with a look of pity. But Obi-Wan would struggle to fill Qui-Gon's role; and Anakin would be left forever scarred by doubts about the ultimate worth of being a Jedi and a life of self-imposed limitations.

    George Lucas, in my opinion, actually did something more poetic and resonant.
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    It's a cool thought but I have to agree with @Cryogenic. It is best to have the Sith as a background plot, scheming for the long term than have Anakin begin his fall to the dark-side as a child, it makes things a little too ridiculous. That would mean the Jedi did not simply miss uncertainty in the boys future, but saw dark intention and just let it slide. Things worked out much better with the seeds for Anakin's fall being planted in TPM and AOTC and then everything finally coming together in ROTS.
    Cryogenic and Valairy Scot like this.
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Maul had a direct influence on the way young Anakin saw life the galaxy far, far away...
    the boy thought Jedi were invincible and the Zabrak utterly destroyed that belief when he stabbed Qui Gon Jinn to death.

    Maul's impact was greater than he is given credit for.
    Because of Darth Maul, Obi Wan had to teach the boy that even stars die out...
    According to the novel, the dragon inside Anakin was restless because of that lesson.;)
    minnishe and Cryogenic like this.
  7. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Maul's impact cannot be underestimated. Without him there would be no Anakin turning to the darkside. There would be no Kenobi training Anakin. There would be no Dooku.

    And his character is also more symbolic than anything character-ish. He's the pure sith, uncorrupted by politics like Palpatine or a tragic love like Anakin.

    He is the pure sith bad guy in the entire saga. It places limitations on what he can do, but he also serves a powerful purpose as a herald of things from the past and the future.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jan 24, 2013
  8. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Saying Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the dark-side without Maul is a bold claim. Maul had no effect on Anakin other than killing Qui-Gon...Anakin didn't even seem to be alarmed when he was almost murdered by Maul, he's smiling and meeting Obi-Wan in the next scene.

    If there was no Maul and Anakin hadn't witnessed Qui-Gon's death who's to say Sidious wouldn't have manipulated him still? There seems to be some idea that Qui-Gon would have been such a better Master for Anakin but I disagree, it may have been ever easier for Palps to turn Anakin if his master was a rogue Jedi like Qui-Gon.
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I find nothing "pure Sith" about Maul. He was simply trained and probably "brainwashed" by Palpatine since he was a toddler. But you make him sound like some mindless symbol of evil without any emotion or contradictions. I don't buy that. It sounds like a one-note character.




    Then what is the point of Lucas labeling Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight against Maul as "Duel of Fates"? And why is it that so many fans believe that Anakin wouldn't have been so easily turned if he had simply obeyed the Jedi rules and tried to be an ideal Jedi Knight? That didn't help Obi-Wan, Mace or Yoda. They still ended up making mistakes and caving in to their own emotions, even if they didn't become Sith Lords.
    Yunners likes this.
  10. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Lucas chose Dooku to show Jedi could be corrupted, but I agree Maul was wasted... He was basically one-dimensional bad guy and not much else.

    IMO could have been a parallel between Anakin and Maul in their training throughout the PT, culminating in Anakin killing him and taking his place. Just forgo Dooku entirely... Or have him be the political equivalent to Palpatine on the Confederacy side without being a Sith.
  11. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Why? Because Maul seemed like such a badass on a superficial level? Or cool?
  12. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But Qui-Gon wasn't an ideal Jedi. He openly defied the Council. And what does Duel of the Fates mean exactly Mr. Musical interpreter? lol
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Do you know? Because apparently, you have no idea what my gender is. I don't care if Qui-Gon wasn't an ideal Jedi. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. And I see the end result of the duel as a foreshadow of the kind of fate that awaited Anakin, based upon who lived and who died. But that's just me.
    BoromirsFan likes this.
  14. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    When you think about it, it seems pretty evident that when you combine all the characteristics of Sidious' henchmen prior to Vader, you get Vader:

    Darth Maul: Pure, unfiltered rage and hatred. A master swordsman. Sith Eyes.
    Darth Tyranus: A former Jedi Master with a deep voice and matching physique. Was inspired by Qui-Gon's ways. Wears dark clothing and a cape.
    General Grievous: A cyborg only alive thanks to the aid of machines. A tactical personality.

    = Darth Vader
    Game3525, BoromirsFan and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  15. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Frankly speaking, Vader was none of these things post suit. By the time the OT rolled around he was mostly calm and controlled, with hardly any rage about him. Unless if you count his stabbing finger while talking as rage. :p

    He was certainly no longer a master swordsman after donning the suit, as evidenced by his duels in the PT. Even Luke bested him in ROTJ. The theory that Vader might have been holding back is ridiculous because he had learned of Leia by then...there was no longer any need of Luke since he was being so stubborn.

    The Sith Eyes only appeared briefly on Mustafar in ROTS, post suit Vader never had them (though TBH when we see his face for the first time he has already turned back to the light side...but since Lucas added the Sith Eyes concept during the PT, I am pretty sure suited Vader never had them)
  16. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    Last edited by Billy_Dee_Binks, Jan 29, 2013
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I thought Palpatine's yellow eyes in RoTJ were supposed to be due to dark side use.
  18. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Your right, that's JUST YOU. So don't try to pass off your personal interpretations of song title's as fact.

    Also if being an ideal Jedi doesn't matter then where were you going with your rant about Anakin not falling to the dark-side had he been an ideal Jedi? Make a point and stick with it.
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I DIDN'T. And you would know that if you had read my post correctly. Instead, you jumped to the conclusion that my interpretation of the tune's title was fact.
  20. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    I pretty much said it in the first post. I complained that Maul was a one-dimensional bad guy and could have been more. Parallel the two characters as they are trained through the Jedi/Sith ways... Maul was clearly young, naive, and headstrong, as was Anakin. Maul could have been a negative image of Anakin and the trilogy could have paralleled their growths and showed us both Sith and Jedi training (which were completely absent from the PT). And then in ROTS Anakin would confront and kill his nemesis, taking his place.

    It would have been much more meaningful than killing an old Dooku he fought once before.
  21. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    So you missed the bit where he was throwing dead rebels against the walls?
  22. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Killing his nemesis was LITERALLY what Anakin did by killing Dooku. It meant a lot to him because Dooku took his hand, made fools of him and Obi-Wan, and was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jedi. I think him killing Dooku meant a lot more than it would have had he killed Maul.
  23. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Uhm, they have to show him as a bad guy. Tarkin destroyed a planet, Sidious throws lightning from his hands...Vader had to get something to establish his bad guy cred.
  24. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I wish Maul was better developed although he did freak me out when I watched the trailers for TPM back in '98. Hey I was only 7!
  25. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    You're not listening to my alternate-universe proposal where Maul would have done all these things and more. I envision Maul as Anakin's "mirror, darkly" negative image, the thorn in his side... Eliminate Dooku entirely and make it Maul who takes his hand.

    Much like in the way TPM would have benefitted by completely losing Qui-Gon Jinn and combining him with Obi-Wan Kenobi to make a new character, Obi-Wan Kenobi... I feel the trilogy would have benefitted from having one bad guy that merged Maul and Dooku and was Anakin's nemesis throughout.
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