Discussion Should Luke be single, married, divorced, or a widower?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by newdawn12, Apr 21, 2013.

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  1. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Maybe we should rename this thread "ROTS Plothole Debate". I would not complain.

    In my opinion, the holocron scene in ROTS novel made a lot of sense. There should have been some mention of holocrons instead of Anakin just blurting out that's outrageous with no real indication, of why being on the council but not a master, is such a problem. It just seemed random to me in the movie. Also Stover's Anakin had a great sense of humor, even in that scene, replying internally with -Go ahead and Vaapad this, you...!- I think all in all, Stover's Anakin was portrayed as much more likable.

    Of course, the issue is that Jedi Holocrons are an EU invention, aren't they*? If there was any actual mention of Holocrons in the movies, people would been confused as to what those were. (*Never mind they are pretty canon now since they were mentioned in TCW)

    As for Luke's love life/On Topic: Luke's relationships tend to end in horrible disaster. (At least in the EU). I find it hilarious so this is why I vote single.
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  2. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    That is a gross and silly overstatement. You absolutely get a better understanding of Anakin's motivations from the book, whether you want to try to nitpick certain aspects and say they are retcon or not. The holocron thing is far from all I am talking about here.
    Last edited by Lee_, Jun 14, 2013
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  3. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    "Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honor should decline" - G.K. Chesterton
  4. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I liked it better when you guys were bickering about Mara Jade.
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  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The reason for this is what they call rule of drama on tvtropes. With decades to fill with material it is almost unavoidable to crush marriages sooner or later.
    The only reason Han and Leia aren't divorced already is probably the hatemail they would receive in such a case.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think the early days of New Jedi Order were probably the worst for Han & Leia- with Han grieving over Chewie, and it approaching the point of separation before they got back together.

    I remember seeing photos of holocron props (including a 12-sided Great Holocron) in one of the Visual Dictionaries to the movies.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jun 15, 2013
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  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    No the book matters not at all because I am talking about the films and nothing else. Complete story likewise doesn't matter nor the storywriters intention. I judge what the storyteller tells me IN the film, not deleted scenes, not earlier versions of the script, not commentary tracks and not novels. If the storyteller wants the audience to know some specific information then put it IN the movie. If you don't then I don't give credit to it.

    Ex. the Sifo-Dyas thing. AotC leaves it unclear if Sifo-Dyas really ordered the army or not. Since RotS doesn't answer the question either, the audience have to make up their own mind about it. So saying "I don't think Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone Army" is a perfectly valid opinion based on the movies. Later books gives more specific info that it really was Sifo-Dyas but those books don't invalidate that opinion because that opinion is based on the movies and the movies don't contradict it. Likewise thinking that the Jedi appear clueless because they don't make any apparent effort to find out who really did order the clone army is also a valid interpretation.

    Other ex. in ST 09, some people felt that the villain, Nero, was under developed, rather one-dimensional and his actions made little sense.
    Others have countered by bringing up tie in comics that give a lot of backstory to the character that adds depth and makes his actions make more sense. But that still doesn't invalidate the opinion about Nero because a film should stand on it's own and not rely on books, comics etc to tell a complete story.

    Star Wars doesn't get an exception just because it is Star Wars, I judge the films as films and I base my opinions of the characters on how they come across IN the films. Same as I do with all films.

    But I suggest we drop this as we have dragged this thread off-topic enough as it is.

    More on-topic, I think having Luke have a family, wife, children is a good idea because it opens the door for more interesting drama. If you want to him to be single then there should be a good story or character related reason for that.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'd have a hard time liking any story with many complicated subplots and many complicated characters which all had to be told in two hours. That's enough time for one complex story, maybe.

    As far as Luke, I'm not sure the drama that would come from interaction with a wife and children is the kind I want from him. Even Han and Leia's relationship, if they are together in the films, should take a back seat to other drama in the film.
  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The books do make that opinion "incorrect" in a sense though- since if C-Canon evidence doesn't directly contradict the movies, it's "correct" in the complete SW universe, rather than the "Movies-only" miniature universe.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yeah, but Lucas also said he regards the EU as a parallel universe to his films.

    But then again you could ask whether Lucas is an authority on the canon or not, after all he is just a "creative consultant now".

    About that we need to take into regard that G-canon is still named after Lucas and that Lucas made lots of calls in the old EU, calls that may or may not be relevant now (example being for instance Vader losing power after his limbs got cut off).

    Therefore, as long as we don't know Bob Igers and Kathy Kennedy's current position on the EU, pretty much everything is "in limbo" about what counts and what doesn't. It is pretty clear however that the movies would count more than some book because Star Wars itself is centered ... on the movies.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 15, 2013
  11. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Bob Igers has about as much to do with these movies as Walt Disney.
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  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What? If for some reason he is opposed to an idea for a movie he can shoot it down with a single phone call and that definitely influences the canon to come. Every major LFL project will need Igers stamp of approval on it.
  13. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I liked it better when you guys were bickering about Mara Jade.
    ---------------------------

    so did I...

    I had to re-check what thread I was looking at after reading this page.

    I do think this disscussion has exhausted itself though,

    if Luke Skywalker was real, he probably be really freaked out that we're obsessing over his love life :p
    kainee and JainaSoloYJK like this.
  14. starwarsjunkie7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2011
    If Luke Skywalker was alive, he wouldn't be looking at these forums! He'd be too busy asking ghost Obi-Wan for advice on his love life...
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  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Luke: Ben? you said Mara was trying to murder me and my family

    Obi: in another galaxy far far in the future there is a tribe of people called Earthlings, they call it Crimes of Passion, so what I told you was true..from a certain point of view, and stop calling me Ben, it's not my name.
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  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Well if it is the PT we are talking about then Lucas had six+ hours, not two. Which is one complaint I hold against TPM, it wasted time.
    Second, who said that Lucas had to limit himself to two hours? He could have made them 2,5-3 hours long if he wanted.
    Third, if your story is too complex to fit in the time frame you have, shorten or streamline the narrative. Not doing this and thus have to omit crucial bits and leave them to books or comics doesn't work for me. Your films have to stand on their own and not rely on novels, comics, tech manuals or what ever, in order to make sense. The Wach. brothers did this with the two Matrix sequels where the story played out in a series of animated short films, plus a computer game. While some of that stuff was interesting, I felt that the films overall suffered from it.

    Also even just a two hour film can have complicated subplots and complex characters, it all depends on how efficient the writing is.

    Lastly, about Luke, I simply think that you have many more options for interesting drama if he has a family than if he hasn't.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    dp Sorry
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Jun 15, 2013
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I find the story of Anakin, the PT Jedi, and the Old Republic interesting because it is so complex. I'd rather have to read some books to get the full view than oversimplify the stories in order to fit all of them into a few hours on screen.

    As far as Luke--it depends on what you consider "interesting drama." I'd rather the soap-opera elements of Star Wars be limited to the not-so-dead father and the long-lost twin. I don't want the ST to add more and risk turning the series into a chick flick.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    There's also no rule against making a quadrilogy or a hexology or whatnot (symmetry is sooo overrated). This is George Lucas, he had as much cash to continue pumping out Star Wars as he wanted.

    I agree that TPM for the most part was unnecessary. He could've simply started with a "chancellor Palpatine" and a teenage Anakin who leaves his mother to become a Jedi.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 15, 2013
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    First, the movies are made to function on their own, they can be seen and understood without having to read some book. And this applies to practically all films. I don't know any film that comes with a disclaimer, "Warning, before seeing this film you must first read these nine books in order for the plot to make sense." The films are a series so events in one film might carry over in another, they are made to form a kind of cohesive story.
    Second, Lucas has said that he only considers the movies and the rest is "an alternate universe".
    Third, what happens if books disagree? If one book says one thing, another says something else and the film says nothing? Then you wind up with arguments about canon and what not which I generally find tiresome. Thus, to me, only the movies count, as this is the movie part of the forum.

    Lastly, about the Sifo-Dyas thing, what film making or story telling purpose is served with setting up a mystery only to shortly thereafter get rid of it?
    Taking the time to set up a question or a mystery around who ordered the Clone army and maybe it was ordered under a false name, only to then say "Oh wait, forget I said anything, there is no mystery what so ever!" If the plan from the beginning was for the army to be ordered by Sifo-Dyas and the Jedi would know this, why make it into a plot point?
    As anakinfansince1983 commented above, if you only have two hours and have a complex plot with complicated characters, why waste time with something that leads nowhere?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  21. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    Which is why I prefer the "movies only" universe. I don't think the EU makes the universe larger. I think it just cheapens it. As such, it's fitting that Mara is the personification of the EU.
  22. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    You do know you have continually steered away from my point throughout this conversation, right? Again (one more time before I give up, ROFL), your perception regarding what the story teller is saying could be WRONG; it could BE in the movie, but YOU MISSED IT. I never said the movie can't or shouldn't stand on its own, only that comprehension can be limited or missing in certain cases; the book COULD provide clarity. Yes, you can say the story means to me what it means to me, that is fine; my point is, that might be totally astray of what it means to the storyteller as well as most other people (Again, comprehension matters in the bigger picture). You perception of Anakin was my example; your perception COULD not be what Lucas was intending to put out in the story; you could be basing your perception on mistakenly perceived points (Lucas might say "No, that is not what I meant for viewers to take from that scene."). The book COULD provide additional clarity, that's all.
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    If it's in the movie and we missed, perhaps now you would care to show us?
  24. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    i'm totally lost with this conversation,

    so Luke having a wife,

    anyone want to share their thoughts?

    :p
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It has sort of taken on a life of it's own.

    Back to the subject, I'm not all that worried about it. As long as it serves the story.
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