Should Luke have tried once more?

The question is referring of course to his handling of Darth Cadeus in the last LOTF book. Please bare with me, but I thought this topic needed its own thread. If it already has one I'm sorry, but its a subject that I think we can dwelve into more.

The question is should Luke have tried one more time to redeem Jacen in Invincible? Or better yet, should Luke have told Jaina to try and redeem him?

 

Yes to both. And Leia&Han should have tried too. Why? Because that's what kind of persons they should be, and what they were in OT and long time in EU afterwards. Not the "can't be bothered to try to redeem him, let's give up and have him killed" kind of types we saw in LotF. Perhaps Jacen wouldn't have deserved more chances, but certainly all the other major characters deserved not to be shown as callous as they were in Invincible (and before it in many other LotF books too). They deserved better.

That said, I'm expecting that FotJ will have the same question brought up in IU. If not for anything else, then to make the characters more miserable and almost incapable to act as they doubt themselves as they reflect what they did and second guess their own actions in LotF.

 

I second that. They would never hae given up in the films. LOTF tried so hard to tell me Jacen couldn't be redeemed-but thats all they did,tell me. They never once showed me he couldn't be redeemed. Jaina herself never once made an attempt to redeem him even though she seemed to be the only one bothered about the fact she was being sent to kill her twin brother.

 

I agree with T, it was downright chilling that Jaina gave up on Jacen as early as the first half of Bloodlines.

I always thought Jacen started down his path when he sacrificed himself to go after the Voxyn Queen, it could of been any of those other Jedi that got captured by the Vong, tortured and twisted for days on end but Jacen took the burden. Jaina never thinks twice about this nor trying to talk to the man that was the most important person for most of her life.

 

I remember reading Invincible hoping Jaina would give Jacen a chance. It was weird, as it was the first part of LOTF after Betrayal that I'd remained spoiler free for. I honestly was fully expecting Jaina to take on board the threat Allana was facing and the pair of them rushing to the Imperial fleet to save her. It felt like a really beautiful scene where despite the fact they'd still be Jedi and Sith, they would put their battle aside for Allana's sake. If they resumed their fighting afterwards... I would not have minded. In fact, if Jacen had turned on Jaina again after she'd helped him save Allana that would have been a wonderful betrayal that showed just what a monster he had become; or been somewhat poetic if it had simply been because he felt now that he was a Sith he could never go back, even if he wanted to.

I was still expecting Jacen to die, if only because of the flashback quotes at the beginning of chapters seeming like an ill omen. I just expected something involving him sacrificing himself by absorbing the nanovirus to save his daughter from it. (Or the last minute horrific betrayal outlined above).

I still like Invincible and it was one of my favourite parts of the LOTF series (apart from what I felt was a shamefully brief page count). Maybe the reason Jacen's death shocked me was just because I had dreamt up this idea of my own, but, I still to this day must admit that I'd have felt it a lot more natural for a Star Wars story for a sudden twist at the end, not as obvious as what was going to happen all along actually happening.

I suppose in a Star Wars story maybe that is actually more a twist than a twist, but I still feel it could have used more of an actual unexpected twist. I concede that the series as a whole had twists, but I prefer to think of each book as an isolated tale, and in need of their own. For that reason, what ultimately hit me hard and irked me was less that Jaina killed Jacen, more that I'd read the whole book and found out nothing that wasn't written on the back cover summary. Jaina went to kill Jacen and killed him. To me it was just lacking in enough character development--be it good or evil development. Given I'd come to accept Jacen was going to die pretty much from the first quote of him as a boy at the start of the novel, what hit me was simply that when he died I felt... robbed. It was like there was something missing. It wasn't the absence of Jacen that left me upset, it was the lack of a complete story. This is particularly true considering they already had a fight during the book, so I was just considering something different to happen in their second fight, when all we got was just a second fight--that was it--with no epic twist. It was a big void of "Huh? What's going on? Did I seriously just read that?" rather than "OH NO! JACEN!".

 

I agree that everyone should have tried a little harder to redeem Jacen. I recall coming on here, outraged that Han was so quick to "sell his son out" with a contract hit. Everybody was very fast in their "Jacen's gone too far. I guess we just have to kill him now." There should have been a lot more talking--not just threats.

But, perhaps in the characters' defense, it was a matter of "too much, too soon". They were burning hot with feelings of betrayal and shame and anger and disgust at Jacen's actions...but to kill your own child with little more than a "Man, I'm gonna feel bad about this in the morning....ah well, Jaina, get to it!" was just cold. I can definitely see Luke doing this. No, he didn't have this attitude towards Vader, who did FAR MORE than Jacen could have imagined, but Luke is in a position of leadership and it was a war, yada yada. Maybe tactically it was the best route, even though it's really not the kind of person Luke has shown himself to be.

But Han and Leia? That's their son. It's shocking how quick they gave him up to the lions.

What I think is kind of funny in a tragic way is that, part of the reason Jacen fell--I think--was because of his detachment from his family. He said it before in the books, but they weren't there for him because they were always off saving the galaxy. I guess they were like that to the end--more concerned for the galaxy than their own son. He died alone and that's probably the greatest tragedy of all.

 

I don't know. Jason killed Luke's wife. He also mindwiped as well as tired to kill his son. Jason also tried to kill his own parents. Even Anakin would not have tried to kill Shmi.I think that there was truly no hope for Jason. IMHO, that is.

 

I'm going to reply with a resounding "YES!"

It makes no sense that Luke would almost die trying to turn Vader but
he, Leia, Han and Jaina would be so quick to wash their hands.

In the case of Raynar Thul, Luke took him by force but the jedi took him
back and put him on the road to normallity and recovery (from what I can understand).

I will confess the Jacen situation was slightly different but not by much.

 

No.

The family has matured. Jacen Solo was further gone than Vader because Vader would never turn on his family. Jacen would have destroyed Tenel Ka and Allana if he had to choose between them and Sith Lord status. He turned on Leia and Han, he turned on Luke, he turned on his sister.

He had no strings to save him.

 

Should Luke have tried once more?

No. Why would he? If you can't feel good or conflict inside a person... then you can't feel good or conflict. It doesn't matter if they're a close family member or not.

If Luke had felt nothing but evil inside his father, he wouldn't have even tried to redeem him. It's that simple. All these comparisons between Caedus and Vader, and how Luke interacted with them, are ridiculous because they're entirely different people. Luke knew his father could be redeemed. He also knew that Jacen couldn't.

I think Han and Leia should have maybe had a harder time accepting this than they did, though.

 

Luke didn't know that Jacen couldn't be redeemed - he thought so at the time, but he isn't infallible, and as he supposedly couldn't read Jacen's feelings like he could Vader's who didn't shield them, then the situation was totally different. What Luke and the elder Solos thought in Invincible wasn't the truth of the matter, it was how they - erraneously - believed things to be. It's curious how so many supposedly bright people can be portrayed all to have been so wrong - character assasinations galore.

 

No.

Exactly - and LOTF went out of its way to repeatedly emphasize this point. Luke didn't fully realize it until Inferno, when he caught Jacen in the act of torturing Ben, but the contrast between Caedus in LOTF and Vader in ESB/ROTJ (once he realizes Luke is his son) is very important.

QFT - LOTF also repeatedly emphasized this point too. By Sacrifice at the latest, there is really no conflict left in Jacen. At times he wallows in self-pity about the high price he's paid, but that's not the same thing as doubting his choices or actually considering turning back to the light side. Much like Sidious, Caedus has an unbelievable amount of self-confidence, and that includes not doubting the path he's chosen. Once the family sees the video filmed by Shevu of Caedus rationalizing Mara's death without any conscience or remorse, they know there's no conflict left in him. If there had been conflict, like there had been in Vader, killing Mara would have drawn it out. Instead, there was none.

Now, it's a fair criticism to make that one prefers a different kind of Star Wars where Caedus did have conflict in him, and therefore was redeemable, and was redeemed. (Personally, I like LOTF as written.) But that's a criticism of the story choices made by the LOTF team. Given the story as actually written, Caedus was not redeemable - and Luke was absolutely right to handle him that way.

On a related point - Jaina was never set up, thematically, as the equivalent to Luke in ROTJ. From at least Betrayal (and I'd argue from The Joiner King), Jaina has been set up as the Kenobi to Jacen's Skywalker. Throughout the storylines, as Jacen made darker and darker choices, Jaina consistently remained the lightside, duty-bound Jedi Knight. As LOTF built toward its finale, Jaina became not ROTJ Luke but ROTS Obi-Wan. And when he went to Mustafar, Kenobi's mission was to kill Vader. (Yes, he gave Anakin one last chance to return to the light - but that's because he literally had not encountered Anakin since his fall, and needed to make sure Anakin was lost. Jaina, by contrast, had witnessed months of Caedus's darkside actions and had personally witnessed his dark deeds.) In Invincible, Jaina's mission was the same, to kill Caedus. Unlike Luke in ROTJ, she had sensed no conflict in Caedus (and, IMO, there was no conflict in Caedus, as written), so she did her duty.

No, their beliefs were exactly right. Caedus had no conflict in him. You might wish he had been written differently, but in the actual books as written he was not redeemable.

If you're going to accuse the authors of character assassination and the characters of erroneous beliefs, let's hear your evidence. Where in the books, as actually written, is Caedus portrayed as having conflict within him? Particularly in Fury, Revelation and Invincible, leading up to his death. And particularly evidence that Luke and the Solos knew about and could take into account.

Because they evidence they did have is pretty rock solid. Caedus tortured Ben. He fought and killed Jedi without conscience or remorse in Fury. He committed numerous war crimes at Fondor with fleets under his command. He ordered the assassination of Pellaeon, and turned Tahiri to the dark side. Most of all, the video from Shevu with his confession of killing Mara. And Jaina personally watched him fight the Mandos on Nickel One.

In none of these situations would the family have any reason at all to think Caedus still had good in hi

 

Jacen did a lot of bad things but he'd done hardly anything by Bloodlines, in which Han, Leia and Jaina all give up on him and Luke spends the whole book going on about how dark Jacen feels rather than talking to Jacen about things like all his visions, etc. Perhaps if Luke had gone to Jacen as an uncle and discussed the troubles both of them were feeling rather than acting bitchy towards Jacen for acting differently, Jacen may have seen sense and told him about Lumiya, etc. Frankly, Lumiya was the only person who gave a damn about what Jacen had to say, is it really surprising he sided with her?

And like I've stated: we were told Jacen had no conflict in him, not really shown and I don't like being told what to think. It was poorly executed and to me, the heroes don't come off much better than Jacen. And I dislike the notion of 'Luke Skywalker is a hero, always will be, not matter what he does/decides'.

 

Maybe we live in a different world but how would a family normally react to.

1. Torturing to death a woman.
2. Trying to murder his parents.
3. Starting a Fascist Movement.

How would YOU react?

And we were shown REPEATEDLY there was no conflict.

1. He shot at his parents under NO hesitation.
2. He destroyed his sister's military career for shavit and giggles.
3. He tortured Ben Skywalker in an Embrace of Pain.
4. He murdered Mara Jade and was giggling ectastic afterwards.
5. He wanted to GENOCIDE Fondor.

Seriously, are Star Wars fans so jaded none of this registered?

 

Everyone makes mistakes, and Jacen had made very few before everyone gave up on him. If I'd heard my bother had tortured a woman to death, I would have rushed to speak to him, not abandon him, leading him to think he is all alone, thus helping him into his descent into madness which will lead to him committing much worse crimes and the deaths of billions. If I suspected there was something wrong with someone in my family, I would talk to them, stick by them, try to understand what they're doing and by presenting them with a warm presence, someone to confide in, I could perhaps show them what they're doing is wrong. Its worth a shot.

I would not stop speaking to them because they do something questionable, sit and watch them go dark while doing nothing to try and prevent until my wife ends up dead because she is the only one taking action to prevent things, and then say yeah lets kill him, but I won't do it.

Would any of YOU sanction the death of a family member, despite what they've done? I can't believe any of you would. I certainly wouldn't.

 

If I'd heard my bother had tortured a woman to death, I would have rushed to speak to him, not abandon him, leading him to think he is all alone, thus helping him into his descent into madness which will lead to him committing much worse crimes and the deaths of billions.

I'd have him arrested so the guy can get professional help. I'd like to think my brother would also prefer to die than harm the innocent if he was in his right mind.

Which is the "badly" stated point of the Mandalorians to Jaina.

 

Errrm, Luke and the others didn't do that or even sicerely try that. As I said, they didn't do anything until it got too personal. And as for wanting to die, tough, don't give them what they want, make them live with the consequences of their actions. Death is the easiest way out of your mess.

 

I can't blame Luke for giving up on Jacen, esspecially as he came to the realization that it was Jacen that killed Mara. There was a personal, emotional level to this crime that doesn't compare to the past events in their lives.

 

Erm, what? Are you forgetting that Vader choked his wife? Then attacked Obi-wan who was like a brother to him? Plus he turned Luke over to the Emperor and then tried to kill Luke. So that's three times Vader turned on his family.

Jacen chose to save Tenel Ka and Allana instead of remaining alive if you read Invincible that way. He did it for selfish reasons, yes, which is why I don't think he was redeemed or redeemable thus why I agree with Uli that Luke should not have tried again. They tried many times and got nothing, there is a point where you have to stop trying and just kill. They had reached that point 4 books before when Jacen killed Mara.

 

i think Luke tried, got rebuffed several times and that was the end of it for him, as the Grand Master of the jedi order

he had to be impartial, and not think of Jacen as his nephew, otherwise he would be giving him special consideration and more leeway just because he is family

Luke wasnt wrong to not give him a million chances
Luke did what was best for the galaxy, which is exactly what he should have done

Han, Leia and Jaina on the other hand, i agree should definitely have tried many many more times
that was a huge problem with LotF
they didnt have all the other responsibilities that Luke had
Jaina especially
she should have went out to learn some way to capture Jacen so she could then use her twin bond to help bring him back
those 3 decided he should die way too soon

 

Yes, he should have tried period. He let his personal feelings get in the way. Mara really did bring a lot onto herself by acting dumb (OOC IMO). Since Luke only loves his immediate family and everyone is a very distant second, he didn't even try.

 

You're condemning a man for not wanting to see the murderer of his wife, who he raised, stopped?

And Darth Vader lashed out at Padme but it was an accident that he killed her. Furthermore, regarding Obi Wan Kenobi, I'd actually argue they were closer to father/son. While this might repudiate my point, father and son aside, Vader also was condemned to a living hell/iron lung by Obi Wan Kenobi.

For me, that sort of makes Vader's willingness to kill Kenobi understandable.

 

Yes, but why couldn't Luke have taken some action before Mara died. Next time there's a threat, should Luke just bumble around until Ben is killed and then do something about it? Everything that happened in LOTF could have been prevented if people hadn't shunned Jacen by the second book. In fact from Bloodlines onwards the story and the character relationships aren't quite the same as how they started in Betrayal.

 

Luke had no idea about Vader's relationship to Padme. That throws the loving family argument out the window.

 

Categorically and emphatically, no.

Luke couldn't even talk to Jacen, the whole storyline the kid's convinced his wiser and more experienced than Luke. His internal dialogue shows contempt for Luke pretty much from the moment he accepts Lumiya's offer.

Sure, Han disowned Jacen in Bloodlines but there's plenty of points where Han's totally loving his son despite what he did to Fett's daughter and despite that he tried to blast the Falcon to smithereens with his parents in it... plus you know, his sister and old childhood friend and his cousin/apprentice. That was just 3 books in! That's seriously not a place most people can go and say "hey, let's forgive the guy" yet Han comes back and tries to save Jacen's hash in Exile. To top it all off, the whole idea that Han and Leia weren't there for their kids is a total fiction concocted by the writers who ended up working on the Del Rey run. It's a retcon of immense proportions that doesn't in anyway line up with what's clearly stated in the Bantam books where you've got Han Solo smuggler and rogue extroidenaire turned Mister Mom. I just so happens that alot of galaxy saving adventures the Solos ended up on happened to involve the kids getting kidnapped by the very threat they were fighting and that actually kicking off their involvement in the fight! After the age of 2, Jacen and Jaina were always with their parents and the only time they spent significant time without one parent or the other was when they were attending the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV. Curiously, Jaina and Jacen are written like they never had parents but Anakin wasn't written that way. And in reality, the twins would scarecely remember their first 2 years spent primarily with Winter.

And yes, if my brother were a tyrant growing in power and he'd done the equivalent of what Caedus did and the only way to stop him was to kill him... I'd do it. For his sake as well as the world's.