main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Should Qui-Gon appear in the end of The Return of the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, May 14, 2017.

?

Should Qui-Gon appear in the end of The Return of the Jedi?

Poll closed Aug 20, 2017.
  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    10.9%
  2. No

    49 vote(s)
    89.1%
  1. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015
    And the Anakin Luke knew and met didn't look like a 20 year old.
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, but there's a reason for why you don't see an injured, burned cyborg (which is the Anakin Luke knew) in the Force at the end of ROTJ, but Anakin as he was as a Jedi.
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  3. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Yes there is. When Luke met Anakin, Anakin was like 50 years old, and somehow he becomes a young ghost at the end of RotJ. Anakin wasn't in his 20's when he died, seeing a young RotS Anakin at the end of RotJ is weird, Luke never met young Anakin, he met Sebastian Shaw's Anakin, which he is at least 50 years old. Obi-Wan wasn't a young RotS Obi-Wan, nor Yoda was young as he was even before RotS. They were old. Only young people in that picture is Anakin, and he wasn't even young when he died. That's just weird. Also people are not same when they are getting old, in that way 50 years old Anakin is a different person than 25 years old Anakin. We shouldn't have seen a young Anakin. We should've seen an old Sebastian Shaw's Anakin. Luke never met with young RotS Anakin. I wouldn't recognize my father if he suddenly becomes 25 years younger, Luke is the same in this situation. He has never seen a young Anakin.

    That's what I meant.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Lucas explained that Ghost Anakin's appearance in the SE was because the force has allowed him to retain his consciousness and identity.

    When Anakin turned to the darkside, he lost his identity. Therefore. The good man that was Luke's father died before Luke was born.


    According to Lucas and the special editions then it is Vader that dies in the DSII hangar bay. Not Anakin. Because Anakin is already dead. Therefore, the force ghost cannot look like the man who died on the death star since the ghost is the identity and consciousness of a person that "died" twenty odd years ago.

    Once Vader died, the force allowed Anakin's consciousness to live on beyond "death" Which means that in force ghost form, he must outwardly resemble his physical self at the time he turned to the darkside, whis is the moment Anakin "died" (even though his physical form continued to live for twenty odd years).



    With me so far?

    Vader, however, sacrificed himself to save Luke. He committed a selfless act for the sake of his attachment to Luke. Even if you just call it compassion, Vader has symbolically rejected everything that Anakin took the journey towards the darkside for in the first place.

    There is no Master to help him become more powerful.

    He will not be able to prevent anyone's death.

    In fact when Luke is afraid that Vader will die when the mask is removed, Vader emphatically declares that "NOTHING can stop that now." Unequivocally denouncing the supposed desire for immortality and to cheat death that defined Anakin's fall.

    So whoever it is that dies on death star, it's not someone that wants Luke to follow him or die. it's not someone who seeks immortality or to cheat death. So it's not Vader since Vader is defined by those things.

    And it can't be Anakin since he died twenty years ago, which is the reason why Anakin ghost doesn't look like the man who died on the death star - Because that physical form had not reacquired the identity or consciousness of Anakin Skywalker.

    So who exactly is it that dies on the Death Star?

    It can't be Anakin because he's confirmed as already being dead for years and the force ghost has to take on the appearance of Anakin while he's not turned to the darkside,

    It can't be Vader since the person that died there held none of the values and motives that supposedly defined post turn Anakin (aka Vader).

    ------------

    (Short answer. George wanted there to be a tangible connection between PT and OT.)
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  5. fastcooljosh

    fastcooljosh Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2017
    the mistake was to cast Sebastian Shaw in the first place.
    the Dude was way too old to play Anakin. He looked even older than Obi Wan and Anakin/vader was 46 when he died.
     
    Seeker Of The Whills likes this.
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, there isn't.

    Luke met an old, scarred and burned cyborg Anakin. That was never how is spirit was meant to be retained in the Force after he died. It's meant to be how he was as a Jedi. That's how it's always been.

    And for consistency sake, his appearance was changed accordingly in 2004.

    No, Shaw's Anakin as a Jedi is a depiction that never existed once the prequels were made. Luke never met the Jedi Anakin before he fell, be it Shaw or Christensen.

    They did not fall. They were not scarred. They joined the Force willingly when they died. That was not the case with Anakin.

    Just because you wouldn't recognize your father doesn't mean that's the case for everyone. And Luke having met Anakin makes him able to sense his presence in the Force even if he couldn't see him.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    You think so? Didn't look that way to me.

    The difference in age between Anakin and Obi Wan was not really pinned down by Lucas at that time.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  8. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Well since he didn't complete his training, probably not. But maybe he's still following Anakin's journey and he may have helped him to become a Force ghost along with Yoda and Obi-Wan.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except you overlook a few things.

    1) Age of Obi-Wan. When ANH was made, Obi-Wan was supposed to be in his 70's. The PT made him 10-15 years younger.
    While his age is never stated, several characters call him "Old", including himself.
    The actor playing Owen was 60 at the time and he called Obi-Wan "Old".
    And it seems Tarkin thought he would have died of old age by then.

    2) When ANH was made, Vader and Luke's father were two different people and there is an implied age difference between them.
    Luke's father was a full Jedi Knight, same as Obi-Wan but Vader was just a "Young Jedi" and "pupil".
    Plus either Luke's father is the brother of Owen or Beru and both actors were well over 50 when they filmed ANH.

    3) The RotJ script called the ghost of Anakin "Elderly".

    So what happened is most likely this, Lucas had in mind an younger Vader and older father Skywalker. When the characters were merged he had to choose which age to use.
    RotJ makes is fairly clear that Lucas went with the older, father Skywalker age.

    But when he made the PT, he decided to make both Obi-wan and Anakin 10-15 years younger.
    So Shaw was not a "mistake", Lucas wanted an older actor for the part as he saw Anakin as old.
    If he wanted a younger Anakin, it would have been very simple to have a younger actor in the DS 2 scene, with lots of make up and then remove that for the ghost scene.
    But again, Lucas saw Anakin as old.

    Then he changed his mind.

    @Alexrd
    How is it consistent to have "Too old Shaw" in one scene and then "Too young Hayden" in another?
    Plus you now break the established logic of Force ghost looking and sounding like they did just before they died.
    To me, having Shaw in both scenes is more consistent and doesn't break established logic.

    With Obi-Wan a simple logic was established, his ghost looked and sounded like the age he was when he died. And he wasn't cut in half or had a nasty gash in his side. So wounds are also healed.

    About the only hole with Shaw is his clothes, he didn't have those when he died.

    Well if Hayden's ghost has both his arms then this is also a Jedi that never existed.
    When Hayden had the longer hair, he was missing an arm.
    So if he has both arms, and since the body is that of Shaw, he would have, the hair style is wrong.

    Also Luke met the Jedi Anakin had become again on the DS 2.
    Anakin died a Jedi, he had rejected his hate and the prison of the dark side and he was once again a Jedi.
    And to me, given the PT, he was finally at peace. He was no longer filled with anger or fear. He had let go of all that and his desire to stop death. He had achieved the calm and understanding that had eluded his younger self.
    Also, older Anakin as the ghost is to me a more fitting image of the full character of Anakin Skywalker.
    He was a good mad that lost his way and went to hell but he found his way back and died at peace, older and wiser.
    So showing an older Anakin fits better.
    Reverting back to the person he was when he was younger suggested regression to me.

    Plus, Luke showed very clearly that Anakin was there all along. He never "died", his true self was just buried under a lot of hate and anger and the venom of the dark side.
    Shaw fits as the ghost because I would imagine that being inside that suit probably aged him prematurely. So his wounds are gone but not the aging that living in that suit gave him.

    I would not mind having Hayden do both scenes and be the ghost with some old age makeup and allow him to actually act.

    Again with the strange logic of "Turning to the dark side gives you a young looking Force ghost."
    Why would this be so?

    Yoda died and shortly there after, his body vanished.
    Obi-Wan was killed by Vader and his body vanished almost directly.
    What about Qui-Gon, he died and his body did not vanish.
    But his voice sounds the same as when he was alive, not much younger.

    So with both Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, it seems that there was no de-aging.

    As for the question, no having Qui-Gon there would make no sense.
    Luke has no idea who he is and has no connection to him.
    So him being there means nothing to Luke.
    It might mean something to Anakin but then you would have to change how his ghost reacts and have him look at Qui-Gon or something.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Yes...

    And no.

    For the saga as a whole, it would have been kind of cool to see Qui-Gon there at the end. But then that would make us wonder where the heck all the other Jedi were. And for the OT, it wouldn't have fit.

    So, I guess overall....no.
     
  11. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015
    Except Anakin doesn't show up as a burned cyborg when he becomes a force ghost in the original ROTJ. This is what he looks like.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    My point exactly. It shows how he once was as a Jedi.

    "Too old Shaw"?! It's Anakin as he was as a Jedi that appears at the end. We were never informed of Anakin's age when he fell, but even in Shaw's protrayal, that was still Anakin before he was injured and locked in the suit.

    What logic? I never saw Anakin's spirit in the Force depicting how he looked like before he died. Which version was that?

    There's no broken logic to begin with. There's no more consistency with Shaw either. Anakin is not comparable to Yoda and Obi-Wan's case.

    I never saw Obi-Wan being cut in half. I saw him joining the Force when Vader stroke. No bissection.

    Along with everything else. It's a portrayal of Anakin that never existed. Once the prequels got made, it was changed accordingly.
     
  13. TheMoldyCrow

    TheMoldyCrow Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2015
    How? By having him be younger? He's still in Jedi robes. We know he's a Jedi.
     
    DarthCricketer likes this.
  14. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013

    But Anakin turned to the light side at his 50's, not in his 20's, he killed the Emperor as the Chosen One. According to your own logic, Anakin should be young because he fall to the dark side at the end of RotS and then he turned to the light side again at the end of RotJ. His youth died by turning to the darkside, and then he was a lightsider when he died.

    Also, if you don't want any scar on Force ghosts we already have ; Anakin's eye scar was still there.

    [​IMG]

    Seeing Young Anakin's vision is just stupid because he has become a completely different person in years, he has different emotions, he has different experiences and life / Force vision over the years.
     
  15. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    YES! Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda should all be replaced by Qui-Gon.
     
  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Wrong! They should all be replaced by a cackling Palpatine ghost, followed by a big "to be continued" text.
     
  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    That was always Anakin as he was as a Jedi. His appearance was merely changed accordingly after the prequels got made.

    He killed Sidious as a scarred cyborg. His spirit in the Force is meant to reflect how he was as a Jedi, before he fell. That's who Luke was trying to bring back.

    No, my argument (and the logic of the movie) is that Anakin appears in the Force as he was as a Jedi. That's how it is and how it's always been. His appearance is not and never was how he was when he died.

    I never said what I want or don't want. I'm saying what it is and what it's always been.

    No, it's not stupid. We are talking about appearance, not character. He appears as how he was as a Jedi, not as the scarred cyborg that he was when he died nor as someone he never was or even existed.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  18. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    To be fair here - we never actually SEE under Obi-Wan's ghost clothes

    Regardless, clothes aren't exactly as they were in life. Anakin died in the black armour and his ghost shows up in Jedi robes he never wore (and regardless of if one calls that a retcon, him showing up as an older guy, he spent many years as Vader and could never have worn those clothes at that physical age appearance, so either way)

    So it's just as possible Obi-Wan's ghost does indeed have a scar on the side of his ethereal torso

    It brings up questions of how clothing and Force ghosts work, and can they remove them or change their outfit if the want, but that's something else entirely lol
     
    DrDre likes this.
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So the force can allow clothing to retain its identity and its integrity long after its owner's physical form has perished.

    Got it.

    8-}
     
    DarthCricketer and TX-20 like this.
  20. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Other weird things regarding clothing:

    When Yoda dies, his body disappears, leaving all of his clothes behind to flop on the bed without him. Yoda's Force Ghost is wearing those same clothes that didn't transcend to the spirit world.

    Obi-Wan's robe stays behind when he dies, but the rest of his clothes presumably went with him, unless they're tucked underneath the robe, hard to see. Regardless, Obi-Wan's ghost has the robe too.

    One only wonders what the Father's ghost would look like, as he left behind all of his clothes too.
     
    DrDre likes this.
  21. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016

    These are ghosts we are talking about, it doesn't matter what the character was wearing when they died or how old they were.

    I imagine they can appear however, or as whatever, they wish to appear as. Obi-wan and Yoda appeared to Luke as how he knew them, and probably how they themselves would see themselves, as wise old jedi. Anakin appeared younger, as if he had removed all trace of Vader and his appearance, and that is the Anakin that he remembered and now sees as himself.
    Really the bad thing about the scene is Anakin's evil sex predator expression. It is that that ruins the whole scene for me.

    Back on topic, there is absolutely no reason Qui gon would appear to Luke. He might well be there, but he doesn't need to be visible. Think about it, would you go up to a stranger and say "Hey look, it's me, I'm here!"? Of course you wouldn't. That is what the ghosts are telling Luke by being visible at that time, it only makes sense because he knows them.
     
  22. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2014
    No

    For starters Luke wouldn't have a clue who Qui-Gon Jinn is and second its just not relevant to the story to have Jinn pop up.
     
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I think you have missed a rather crucial part of RotJ. Anakin comes BACK. He comes back into the light and is a Jedi once more.
    So Shaw did play Anakin as a Jedi. Not for very long but Anakin was a Jedi when he died.
    So Yoda, Obi-Wan, their images are of the Jedi they were when they died.
    Shaw's ghost was that of the Jedi Anakin was when he died.
    His wounds are healed and his clothes are different, otherwise he is the same as the other two.

    People, both in this thread and before have argued against Shaw, citing the age of the actor and how that is inconsistent with how old Anakin is in RotJ, given the PT.

    And I don't think that Shaw was ever intended to be an Anakin pre-turn, he is far too old for that.
    The actor was 80, the RotJ script called Anakin's ghost "Elderly".
    Clearly this isn't supposed to be the age when Anakin turned.
    Instead, like I said above, Shaw is the image of the Jedi Anakin is once again.
    The Jedi he was when he died.

    The title of the film is Return of the Jedi, it could refer both to Luke, becoming the new Jedi and Anakin, returning to be a Jedi once again.

    Obi-Wan's ghost looks, sounds and talks exactly like he did just before his death.
    Voice, appearance, hair style, even clothes is the same. Even the cloak Obi-Wan left behind on the DS is with him, so the Force can make clothes.
    That was the logic established with Obi-Wan. Yoda fits this, as did the Shaw ghost.
    He has no wounds, but neither does Obi-Wan. His clothes is different but since the Force made a cloak for Obi-Wan, it is no stretch that it did something similar for Anakin.


    Yes there is, two ghosts are the age when they died, the third is much younger.
    The only way the young ghost works here is if you assume that Anakin REALLY died in RotS and Vader was just his animated corpse.
    And Anakin is totally comparable to Obi-Wan and Yoda as all three died as a Jedi.
    Obi-Wan sacrificed himself, Anakin did the same.
    Yoda accepted death and did not fight it, Anakin did the same.

    Yoda died, due to a combination of old age and illness, THEN his body vanished.
    Ergo Obi-Wan first died, THEN his body vanished.
    Why did Obi-Wan die?
    Vader cut him with his lightsaber. So enough of Vader's lightsaber cut through Obi-Wan's body to cause death. Either fully or partly.
    So a serious cut either way.


    [/QUOTE]

    Shaw's Anakin was a Jedi that did exist. Not for long sure but long enough to right the wrong he should have done years ago. And make peace with himself and his son.
    The Jedi he was at that time had a lot of scars and wounds and different clothes sure.
    But that the Force heals wounds and creates clothes is consistent with the other films.

    Haydens ghost is his head on top of Shaw's body. That Jedi never existed.
    Plus, as I said, when Hayden had that hair style, he was missing an arm.

    He was a Jedi when he killed Sidious and he died as a Jedi.
    He had turned back to the light, he had found peace, he had let go of the fear and anger he never could let go of before.
    To me, he is a better Jedi in his final moments than he ever was before.
    And again, I disagree that Shaw's ghost was meant to be pre-turn Anakin.

    Again, Shaw's ghost isn't supposed to be pre-turn Anakin.
    It is of the Jedi he was when he died.
    His wounds are healed and his clothes change but it is the Jedi he was in death.
    Like with Obi-Wan and Yoda.

    In closing, take Luke.
    In TFA we see that he has a robotic hand.
    Supposed he dies and comes back as a ghost.
    Is he supposed to look old? If yes, should he still have a robotic hand? If you say he should be old but have both hands then what is wrong with Anakin's ghost having his limbs back but be the age when he died? [\spoiler}

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface

    Mod Edit. Use Spoiler tags where there is a possibility of Episode VIII spoilers.
     
  24. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Samuel Vimes

    Why are you still assuming a ghost has physical limits? Also you shouldn't be posting rumours about ep.8-9 here, they can be spoilers.
     
  25. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Really ? He wouldn't know Obi-Wan's former master ? I think he read Obi-Wan's journal and he knows who Obi-Wan's former master is.
     
    Chancellor Yoda likes this.