Should Qui-Gon Jinn appear as a Jedi ghost?

Isurus - so you're telling me Yoda is using a SITH teaching to become a Ghost?

Never.

 

It's only a thought, among many, I have about how these all tie together. In the novel of AotC, Yoda uses Sith methods to get a clearer picture of whats going on. In the movie, you hear him and Mace state that the Jedi's powers are diminished which is his reasoning for doing so. When Yoda, in the book, delves into the "dark side" he's really delving into Sith teachings. Of course, the Jedi have labelled such ventures as going into the dark side since they fear such teachings because they're forgotten, ignored, and misunderstood. <<this occurs in any society, it seems>> But..thats another thread, as I said. Yoda hopefully realizes by utilizing Sith teachings to see the future clearly doesn't mean he goes evil. <it's quite possible this is why, by ESB, he's muttering more about how the Force surrounds and binds everything together which crazily enough are probably Sith teachings more than the Jedi's midichlorian theorems...but...thats another thread>>

My rational is that the Jedi, up till Qui-Gons voice, could not retain identity after physical death. And the Jedi, following their ways to the extreme, have allowed the Republic to crumble. So, I had the idea that maybe some of the Sith teachings are ways to retain identity after death. But, like the Jedi who take their beliefs too far to one side, Lord Sidious take the Sith teachings to an extent not intended. To the extent of not only retaining identity...but to actually posses a living beings body. There are many discussions about the balance between Jedi and Sith..light and dark...and I think somewhere between not retaining identity and possessing a body is the balance point. So, Kenobi, Yoda and Anakin have found that medium. And throughout the entire saga, they are also the only true Jedi we see. But, to answer your question, in the novel, Yoda DOES delve into the "dark side" to see things more clearly. Yoda knows Sithly ways already.

Of course, just having a thought like that probably means George has something completely different or a new aspect to show..but till Epi 3, that's how I see things.

Isurus the White

 

that would be cool.

 

Sorry Isurus, it's an interesting theory, but I totally disagree.

The Sith are like a cancer, isn't that how Lucas described them? It is the existence of the Sith that throws the Balance of the Force askew.

And I have take exception to your "Sith teachings." Well, obviously the Sith do have teachings to teach to their adepts, but I don't really see how they come into play here.

Yoda did not make use of Sith "teachings" when meditating; what he said was that the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, and to peer into the future, one had to go through the shroud of the Dark Side. Otherwise, why didn't we see a Ghost of Palpatine at the end of ROTJ?

My analogy is that an oil spill occurred, and to get to the water underneath, you have to dive through the oil first. Crap analogy, but I haven't taken English Lit in a while.

Well, I've got the novel here.

Mace (p. 168): "Probing the dark side is a dangerous process ... it is quite possible that he will remain in seclusion for days."

And yet, a few pages earlier, Obi-Wan meditates on the Kamino problem.

"Another image invaded Obi-Wan's meditations...an image of Anakin and Padme together on Naboo ...No danger was about; the two were relaxed and at play.

Obi-Wan's relief lasted only so long as it took him to realize that the continuing scene might be the most dangerous thing of all. He dismissed it, though, unsure if this was a premonition, an image of reality, or just his own fears playing out before him.

...

The Jedi Knight focused again on the bust of Count Dooku, searching for insights, but for some reason, the image of Anakin kept becoming interposed with that of the renegade Count..."

Sorry for the length - this is just to show Obi attempted to meditate through the Force to solve the situation.

Hmm...Yoda was (bottom of p. 275)"deep in his meditations, peering through the dark side."

Here's the key passage, incredibly vague, yet hinting at Anakin being the key:

"He didn't tell Mace the rest of it, that somehow Anakin's rush of agony manifesting in the Force had tapped into the spirit of the dead Jedi Master who had discovered him. Too much was happening here.

That disembodied familiar voice hung profoundly in Yoda's thoughts. For if it was true, if he had heard what he was sure he had heard..."

Here's my take (and others have come up with similar ideas):

the Force is not balanced right now. The Sith are growing in power, and the shroud of the DS has fallen.

Anakin's unbelievable rage at his mother's death means he, with all of his midichlorian potential, taps into the Dark Side, possibly to an extent that has never been seen.

This throws the Force even more off-balance, and like dropping a large stone in a lake, bubbles and waves are created - and Qui-Gon's personality bubbles up into the surface.

Of course, the major problem with that theory is that the personalities should be submerged once the disturbance (the Sith) is gone, and the Force balanced once again.

Meaning that we shouldn't see Yoda, Ben, and Anakin waving at Luke at the end of ROTJ, unless they were granted one more "visit" before disappearing into the Force.

And none of this explains the disappearing Jedi either.

"I'm so confused!"

 

I myself think it's almost certain to happen. The "Anakin! Anakin! Noo!" in AOTC, to me, doesn't seem like it would be included unless it would lead up to a bigger plot point.

I would hope Qui-Gon would return as a Jedi ghost. Just the thought of seeing Liam Neeson return as the spirit of Qui-Gon, offering advice to somebody gives me goosebumps

 

Well, I just think it's interesting that the only lineage of learners who have the ability to retain their identity is the lineage extending from Dooku, who most likely incorporated Sith teachings in his training of his Padawan. Where did Dooku learn of such teachings? In the Jedi Temple....where they were once practiced a forgotten time ago. So, I'm just thinking thats how it'll be explained.

Does anyone dispute that between the PT and ESB Yoda has changed his tune? That Force-user has a ways to go before he is considered a Jedi in my book. Sometime after Epi 3, or during it, he'll reach that point.

Errr..yes, I have quite high standards of what a true Jedi Knight/Sith Lord is.

Isurus the White

p.s. why we dont see Sidious as a ghost...hmm..I'll think about it.

 

There's a lot of "ifs" in there, but I see your point.

Your central assumption is that the "line", so to speak, originated from Dooku, or that it is Dooku's teachings that give one the ability to become a Jedi Ghost.

But it's only through Anakin's hate and rage (and subsequent tapping into the DS) that Yoda hears Qui-Gon's voice...so doesn't it make more sense that Anakin is somehow responsible?

 

sure i guess that makes sense

 

In Rogue Planet by Gerg Bear Obi-wan hears Qui-Gon's voice but dissmises it becasue it is not possible to comune from beound. So the whole Qui-Gon thing happened only three years after TPM the first time (that is if you take the books into the equation.)

 

I really hope so. I like Liam Neeson. He's a good actor.

 

Rodan- My mom loves Neeson.


Anyway why should we see Qui-Gon come back as a ghost? I don't see how it would help the movie it would just slow it down. We should see DARTH-MAUL come back as a ghost. The way Obi-Wan killed Maul was just like when Vader killed Obi-Wan. Unlike Obi-wan, Maul lives for a few more seconds as he falls down the pit. Then he disappears. If Qui-Gon can come back from the dead, so can Maul and Maul should.

 

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

why would this be good, beyond your own desire to see Maul in the movie again?

 

Qui-Gon - Yes, but maybe only as a voice. but... Im not sure if that would work out too well.
and dont have him explain the trick, just explain story related stuff ( like Sifo-Dyas )

Maul- NO. please no.

 

lol that would be awesome if Qui-Gon explained everything:

"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for those damn kids!"

I love it when you get characters explaining stuff in a script, either giving their backstory so as to give the audience an understanding of what their character is like, or explaining the significance of certain events that we can already figure out.

This is what drove me MADDDDDD in the Two Towers: you get Elrond and Arwen arguing (not that this was in the book, mind you!) about whether she should be with Aragorn.

Even if you haven't read the book, you know from FOTR that she is immortal and Aragorn is mortal - and yet they continue to tell us this: "There's no hope" "Yes, there is hope" "No, there's no hope - you are immortal and he is mortal" "Even so, I love him and I'll forsake my immortality".

I almost lost it.

When Peter Jackson sticks to the script, he's absolutely phenomenal, but when he starts to stray (heavily) from the books, the script gets really overbearing.

Whoops...this is a SW forum...just had to vent.

Actually, arrowhead, I'm going to change my mind - there has to be SOME explanatory dialogue here, because:

we've seen Obi-Wan and Yoda disappear and then re-appear as ghosts (the jury's out whether Vader disappears).

But Qui-Gon definitely did not disappear; if he appears as a Jedi Ghost, we'll need to know the connection between disappearing and Jedi Ghosting.

Or at least I want to know.

 

Id rather Yoda explain the ghost trick & QG explain the Dooku-I mean Sifo-Dyas thing & what happened there.
but now Im just being picky.

I definitely want QG in E3 somehow. Hes just so damn cool. it would be a shame to only see him in one movie.... but then again... that maybe one of the things that makes him seem cool right now! lol
Really though, I think his yelling in E2 points to a return of some kind in E3.
I hope so.

 

Garth-Maul: I'll tell you how it would be good: I want to see Maul in the movie again.


Why don't we have Maul explain story related stuff?

If Qui-Gon can come back so can Maul. Some one had a theory that reappearing from the dead was a Sith thing. They should both return. Qui-Gon returns to Ob-Wan. Maul returns to Anakin. Tag-Team lightsaber duel. Qui-Gon rematches Maul while they're both ghosts while Anakin duels Obi-Wan. Maybe Maul's ghost will eat Anakin like the head on Harry Potter.

 

Okay, and that's the point where I walk out of the theatre.

Maul was a cool, one-dimensional kick-ass Sith assassin. There is absolutely no reason to bring him back.

What is he going to say? "Use the Dark Side, Anakin. Let it guide your hand."

I get the feeling that Anakin kinda liked or at least respected Qui-Gon; I really can't see him listening to the guy that killed Qui-Gon 13 years ago.

 

Garth_Maul- why would this be good, beyond your own desire to see Maul in the movie again

scuiggefest-I'll tell you how it would be good: I want to see Maul in the movie again

LOL that was funny

BTW, Im just thinkin... Anakin only saw Maul when he was running away or flying away. I dont think that sets up much of a relationship.

Maul is gone. Qui-Gon will return. (IMO)

Will he talk to Anakin? I wonder. Talking to Obi-Wan makes more sense to me, but this whole story is really about Anakin & Qui-Gon is the one who started the ball rolling. So, IMO, if he appears to either one, he will warn Anakin of the dark side & how he already started down that path (Tusken slaughter) or he will warn Obi-Wan to watch Anakin more closely, because he has started down the dark path.
But of course its much to late for that.

 

Anakin shouldn't see him. In ESB he has killed Kenobi, and thinks he can't help Luke.

But Jinn should come back. We heard his voice in AOTC, and that needs some kind of explanation. Plus making him Dooku's apprentice is a gold mine waiting to be explored.

 

oh yeah! good point about Vaders thinking in ESB.

 

I think the voice would fit in nice but no ghost. Leave that to the OT.

 

Yeah, that's my real problem with those who think that the Jedi Ghost "ability" is somehow tied in with Anakin - the fact that Vader is clearly baffled when he's stomping on Ben's robes in ANH.

Then again, I suppose I'm assuming that the disappearing-Jedi trick and the Jedi Ghost trick are related.

I suppose it could be unconscious on Anakin's part, but I think that's pretty lame.

 

Then again, I suppose I'm assuming that the disappearing-Jedi trick and the Jedi Ghost trick are related

same here.
but it always bothered me that we're supposed to know "Anakin" disapears when we dont actually see it.
hmmmm. I wonder..... Since GL never made that happen on screen (like in the re-release, a perfect opportunity) maybe thats not the way it is.

 

When I first saw Qui-Gon die the first time I saw the Phantom Menace I couldn't understand why he didn't disappear. I actually figured he couldn't really be dead because I assumed ALL jedi disappeared at their death. Some jedi disappear some don't and we don't know the connection.

I have thought of one possibility: Luke is present both times a jedi disappears. Could the whole disappearance thing be Luke's fault? But Luke wasn't even born yet when Darth Maul disappeared down the shaft...

 

give it up, Maul is NOT coming back!

Although, I'll be the first to gracefully admit defeat if you are somehow proved right. It definitely would be a surprise along the lines of "I am your father." lol

Anyway, let's take it for granted that Qui-Gon is coming back. I heard that Lucas wanted Liam back for AOTC but he got hurt in a car accident or something (?).

I think the better question here is TO WHOM is Qui-Gon going to speak: Anakin or Obi-Wan?

Obi-Wan
I can easily see him coming to Obi-Wan; they were obviously very close, being Master and Padawan, and had a great deal of respect for each other.

There is also the fact that Qui-Gon insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin...hmmm, I never thought of that - he insisted that OBI-WAN train Anakin. I always assumed that was because he knew the Council wouldn't agree, but how could he think that a 25-year old (?) Obi-Wan would be experienced enough to train the Chosen One?

What I mean is, is there any way Qui-Gon foresaw that Obi-Wan training Anakin would be key?

Problem: Qui-Gon's voice is first present when Anakin loses it on Tatooine...is he connected in some way to Anakin?

Anakin
He could also appear to Anakin - quite possibly right when Anakin is about to turn to the Dark Side, to warn him. This becomes perhaps even probable when one considers that, as mentioned, we hear Qui-Gon's voice when Anakin is "tapping in" to the DS on Tatooine.

Problem: we don't KNOW either way if Vader knows about the Jedi Ghosts; we definitely know he DOESN'T know about the disappearing trick.

Plus, there's always Obi-Wan's line "if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

To me, that sounds suspiciously like "I know something you don't know."

Just to push the length of this post even farther, what will Qui-Gon say?

- He could warn Anakin not to turn

- He could warn Obi-Wan that Anakin will turn

- He could tell Obi-Wan that this all has to happen

- He could tell Obi-Wan it's not his fault that things went awry

- He could ask Obi-Wan to watch over Luke Skywalker and then attempt to train him when the moment was right