Should Qui-Gon Jinn appear as a Jedi ghost?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Kit-Fisto7BA, Mar 23, 2003.

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  1. Porkins_Dietician Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 1
    To answer the question, yes I believe he will. Why? Now there is another can of worms.

    I have always thought of the ghosts appearance to coincide with the Jedi's connection to the living force. Qui-Gon was very much into the whole will of the force thing as if he was being controlled by it perhaps to some greater degree than others. His midichlorian explanation to anakin tells us of these microscopic beings as the reason the powers jedi have exist.

    His coming back to explain the connection between the force and living or dead beings will happen I am sure in ep. III. He will explain that to be one with the force and to be able to control the midichlorians in you is how you will be able to carry your life force through death and beyond. Your connection to the force and force users will enable you to appear to them as an apparition caused by these microscopic beings (midichlorians). I know it may sound strange and it just may suck, but I think this is where GL is going with this. The midis form a ghost like formation allowing you to retain your identity in the afterlife.

    Yoda gives evidence of this in ESB "luminous beings are we not this crude matter" its all right there. Yoda learns this from somewhere most likely qui gon or obi "it surrounds us binds us together" Wan Kenobi.

    So at one point qui talked to one of those two his connection is with obi, yodi, and ani so his absence in 4,5,6 is plausible Perhaps he still talks to anakin we don't know. He has no connection to luke so he does not appear to him in ROTJ Nor does he shape or mold him that is Obi wans job. Random ghosts popping up out of the blue talking about destiny and such would scare the poor little farm boy I would imagine so he lets the living handle that.

    So is qui the one who discovers this ability? Yes, I think so. He discovers it post mordem which is why he does not dissapear. Obi and Yoda and possibly Anakin knew it before they die so they dissapear because of it. The problem becomes ROTJ. How is it anakin learns of this between 4 and 6? We may never find out. But heck while I am at it why not throw this out there perhaps anakin does know of it but vader does not. Now there is another thread altogether.

    Am I completely wrong in this theory of mine? Probably but it sure is fun to speculate. The answer is probably much easier than that.
  2. scuiggefest Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I've considered the Jedi ghost thing and think I know a solution. Qui-Gon mentions the Will of the Force. assuming the Force has an actual Will than it is the Will of the Force that brings back Jedi spirits. I think it only brings them back if their destiny was spoiled by the Dark Side.

    Qui-Gon: Darth Maul killed him. I believe that his destiny was to see Anakin's training completed. So maybe he will appear when Anakin is promoted to full Jedi Knight.

    Obi-Wan: Darth Vader killed him. His destiny was probably to complete Luke's training. He reappears to guide and instruct Luke.

    The End: Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all appear at the very end. Anakin's destiny as chosen one was ruined by the dark side. He came back to see his son's success in returning balance to the galaxy. Yoda and Obi-Wan are probably there for basically the same reason - to see peace restored at last.

    The disappearing jedi thing seems to be something else. Darth Maul, Obi-Wan and Yoda all appeared to be meditating when they died. Then they disappeared. The meditation thing must be what does it because they are calm at peace and that makes them luminous beings rather than crude matter.
  3. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    scuiggefest - I know you love Darth Maul, but HE DOES NOT DISAPPEAR IN TPM! His body was cut in half by a lightsaber.

    Don't try to put Yoda and Ben's deaths in the same category as Maul.

    Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but as far as I can see, there is absolutely no evidence for Maul disappearing. Unless you mean he disappears from sight because he fell down a deep dark pit...

    Porkins - I think that's a viable explanation, but I do think that it sucks - it removes a lot of the mysticism from the Force.

    IIRC, after TPM came out, people were kinda ambivalent about the whole mitichlorian explanation, but myself and others thought that it was used to show how formalized and static and scientific the Order envisioned the Force, and we pointed to the fact that, in the OT, it does have a very mystical, pseudo-religious connotation.

    "Hokey religion" - Han Solo
    "Sorcerer's ways" - Admiral what's his name
    Tarkin says something too about it being a religion.

    So either the mitichlorian explanation was incorrect or partially correct and there's more too it, or else Palpatine embarked on a campaign to poke fun at the Jedi; which seems odd considering he's a Sith...

    unless the Empire is not aware that he is a Force user - but how could that be?

    And why are people like Han and others so skeptical of the Force when the 2 most powerful people in the galaxy, Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, obviously use it?
  4. mtmaccormack Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    I thought of this a lot lately. The time between a Jedi dying and reappearing seems to accelerate as the story unfolds.

    Qui-Gon Jinn dies in Ep 1 but does not disappear. We hear his voice 10 years later in Ep II and hopefully he appears as a ghost in Ep III which I guess is 12-14 years after his death.

    Obi Wan dies in Ep IV and we hear his voice in the Death Star battle, and see him appear in Ep V (a couple of years after his death?).

    Yoda and Anikan die in Ep VI and we see them reappear in the same episode!

    So my theory is that since Qui-Gon is the first to do this it took him the longest. But he did not know how to do it before he died. He figured it out after he died. He then tells Obi-Wan and Yoda (but not Anikan)about how to do it in Ep III and maybe even he helps Obi-Wan "from the other side" after Obi-Wan dies. That is why when Obi-Wan and Yoda die they disappear but Anikan does not. So when Anikan dies, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda all help hime "from the other side" to reappear.

    So to summarize: Jedi only disappear when they die if they have learned the technique already.
  5. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    It could be, rather then a "learned" technique...that jedi become one with the Force as a form of "enlightenment" (very in keeping with GL's themes of eastern cultures).

    While seperated from Darth Maul and Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon was meditating. Perhaps, the Force revealed to him that for Anakin to complete "the prophecy"...he would have to die. Perhaps that's why Qui-Gon demonstrated such renewed energy, he knew his death would lead to "balance in the Force."

    Obi-Wan had been contemplating his confrontation with Darth Vader for a long time, and knew that he was not meant to survive the encounter. So at the appropriate moment (with Luke watching) he sacrificed himself "to the Force."

    Yoda, once his final act as a jedi master was completed, could allow himself to become one with the Force.

    And Anakin, having served "the prophecy" by rejecting the dark side saving his only son, and destroying Palpatine, had redeemed himself and could join the rest of the jedi spirits. From that view, ROTJ could be seen as both Luke restoring the jedi...and Anakin's death allowing him to "return" to his fellow jedi knights.
  6. Zinger Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2003
    I like that idea Krash, particularly bringing in Qui-Gon's meditation in TPM. And I would like to see Qui-Gon appear in some form or other, as long as its done appropriately.
  7. Darth Kruel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    I sort of appreciated that in AOTC novel when it stated that Yoda was meditating and discovered that Qui-Gon Jinn had retained his consciousness after death. I'm thinking that if Qui-Gon appeared to anyone it would be Yoda.
  8. force_storm663 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 1
    That's a good idea Krash.

    I always considered the disapearing act as either a connection to the Prophecy or as a physical manifestation of the will of the Force, or a combination of the two. Look at it this way (going off someone else's idea) Obi Wan died before he could train Luke, and he came back to help him destroy the Death Star and to point him towards Yoda. And also he comes back to tell Luke what he left out, a pep-talk if you will. Basically Obi Wan only came back to make sure the Prophecy was fufilled. Keeping this in mind, it makes sense to have Qui-Gon come back to make sure the Prophecy stays on the right track. I think perhaps Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda all come back at the end not only to say good bye, but as a sort of Thank You card from the Force. (Cheesy, I know...) It's most likely all going to revolve around the fufillment of the Prophecy. What I'd like to see is Qui-Gon actually explaining the Prophecy, like Obi Wan is distraught over Anakin's blatent disregard of the Code by marrying Padme and by slipping closer to the dark side, so he calls into the Force for help and Qui-Gon answers the call. Anyway, long story short, yes I'd like to see Qui Gon come back as a ghost.
  9. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Now that I am reminded of the profecy, I really want Qui-Gon to come back and tell somebody (probably Obi-Wan) what the profecy is.
    That would be really really cool, IMO.
  10. scuiggefest Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I think the Will of the Force brings the jedi Spirits back and no one really knows exactly how.

    The reason might be they come back might be because the force is used for KNOWLEDGE and defense. In every instance of a jedi ghost they have imparted knowledge on someone present.

    Obi-Wan: "Run Luke Run" "Use the Force Luke" "Go to Dagobah" He instructs Luke in all of those cases. In Yoda's house he informs Yoda that he should train Luke. Later he warns Luke not to go to Leia, Han and Chewie. Finally in Return of the Jedi he tells Luke about his family.

    The End: Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-Wan appear smiling and Luke gains the knowledge that their souls rest in peace.

    Qui-Gon: His scream lets Yoda know that Skywalker is in terrible pain.

    In Episode 3 any ghost who appears will instruct a Jedi.

    ( :) Maul teaches Vader to fight like a Sith :) )
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "When I first saw Qui-Gon die the first time I saw the Phantom Menace I couldn't understand why he didn't disappear. I actually figured he couldn't really be dead because I assumed ALL jedi disappeared at their death. Some jedi disappear some don't and we don't know the connection."

    Anakin and Qui-gon share two common traits. Neither disappeared after their deaths (unless you read the ROTJ novelization), and both were burned on a funeral pyre. Coincidence?

    "I have thought of one possibility: Luke is present both times a jedi disappears. Could the whole disappearance thing be Luke's fault? But Luke wasn't even born yet when Darth Maul disappeared down the shaft..."

    This, I think, is a coincidence. This reasoning usually starts leading down the "Luke is the Chosen One" path, and I disagree with that. Remember that Luke hasn't even been conceived yet, and yet Qui-gon has been able to retain his identity. Yoda becomes a Force ghost, and Anakin is nowhere near him. It has something to do with the individual, not the individual's proximity or relationship to Luke or Anakin.

    "TO WHOM is Qui-Gon going to speak: Anakin or Obi-Wan"

    Considering that Yoda is the only person (whiffle?) to hear him, you know who my money's on. ;)

    "Yoda gives evidence of this in ESB "luminous beings are we not this crude matter" its all right there. Yoda learns this from somewhere most likely qui gon or obi "it surrounds us binds us together" Wan Kenobi."

    Damn! I never made this connection! You go, Porkins_Dietician! BTW, how would Yoda know about the "luminous" part, unless he's "seen" Qui-gon???

    "I think it only brings them back if their destiny was spoiled by the Dark Side."

    What about all the Jedi at Geonosis, not to mention all the Jedi killed by Vader in the upcoming Jedi Purge?

    "Tarkin says something too about it being a religion."

    Tarkin - "You, my friend, are all that is left of that ancient religion."

    "So to summarize: Jedi only disappear when they die if they have learned the technique already."

    2 points.

    1) Where does Anakin learn it? (Could happen in Ep.III), but consider this scenario if #1 does occur...
    2) Anakin's sacrifice - Vader's life-threatening choice to attack Palpatine is now dimished, since Anakin "knows" he can come back. Not a huge thing, but it does change the emotional impact. Besides, Anakin never mentions this ability to Luke.

    Anakin - "Tell your sister, you were right....Better yet, I'll tell her myself in a few hours. I want to see if she's as hot as her mother was." [face_laugh]

    (Seems like everyone in the family wants a piece of Leia. ;) )

    Sorry....where was I? Oh, yes...

    I always got the impression that Anakin became a Force ghost because he found redemption, and was rewarded by the Force for fulfilling the Prophecy. Kinda similar to Krash's theory. Besides, wouldn't it make sense that the Force would send some messenger or guardian angel to keep the Prophecy on track? (Of course, this doesn't account for seeing all the Force ghosts at the end of ROTJ, since the Prophecy is obviously fulfilled. Maybe that was just for one last "hurrah" for the audience?)

    BTW, got this little brain-spark while typing. What if Anakin "ponders" Obi-wan's disappearance, and does some investigating during ESB and ROTJ? Sure, it's not shown, but the possibility did come to mind.

    "Maul teaches Vader to fight like a Sith" [face_laugh]
  12. DARTH-KAST Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2003
    I believe Qui-Gon will appear in Episode III
    to both Obi Wan and Anakin to perhaps reveal his relations with Master Sifo Dyas and the Clones. The scene will most likely be like it was in Return of the Jedi, when Obi Wan appeared to Luke on Dagobah.
  13. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    I had a new idea last night. Most of us are expecting things we've seen in a SW movie before, like Obi-wans ghost talk in ROTJ. Im begining to wonder how intense Anakins fall to the dark side will be. I started to imagine it like the beginning of Two Towers with Gandolf descending, etc. etc.. I wonder if Anakin will go through something like that in his mind. That could be when Qui-Gon appears. Not as a complete man sized "ghost" (as we've seen) but.... more like a vague cloudy vision. Maybe in a dream or a nightmare. I just think it'll be spookier than what we've seen. I think the mental & emotional aspect needs to be shown & (no offense to Hayden C) I just dont think GL could do that with just actors. Its gonna need to be bigger than that. More profound than just watching someone... change their mind. He *is* going to get pretty evil.

    Anyway, just a thought. Whatever they do, I hope its gonna be pretty freaky.
  14. Jedi_Drummer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    I think he should appear as a ghost only if it serve to continue the story. He shouldn't appear just because it would be cool. Also, if he does appear, there should be some reason why he doesn't appear in the classic trilogy.
  15. Kit-Fisto7BA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2003
    star 3
    Hey,Maul did not disappear down the shaft,his body just fell down into darkness so far that it was no longer visible.(Duh!)
  16. scuiggefest Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I disagree Fisto


    He falls down the shaft
    you see his face one last time
    and then his body evaporates
    and his clothes flutter
    down by themselves
  17. Kit-Fisto7BA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2003
    star 3
    No,his body flipped over and fell head first.
    (P.S. I made this idea of Qui-Gon's ghost being in Ep.III)
  18. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    scuigge, GIVE IT UP! I think you're seriously the only person who thinks that Maul disappears in TPM.

    Plus, consider this: Yoda disappears AT THE EXACT INSTANCE OF HIS DEATH. Same with Obi - as soon as Vader's saber touches his body, he disappears.

    But Maul's "disappearance" (i.e., his vanishing from the sight of someone with 20/20 vision after falling hundreds of meters down a shaft) seems to take quite a while, comparatively speaking. Is this because Maul is only really a Sith "Knight" and not a Master?

    Or is it because HE WAS CUT IN HALF AND DID NOT DISAPPEAR!

    lol that reminds me of "now you're a man" from Orgazmo.

    "What makes a man, is it the woman at his side..."
  19. Kit-Fisto7BA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2003
    star 3
    Scuigge,I don't what your smoking,but give it up Garth and I are right.
  20. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "But Maul's "disappearance"...seems to take quite a while"

    As does Anakin's in ROTJ.

    Keep the faith, scuiggefest. ;)
  21. scuiggefest Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for the support MBJ. In 2005 you'll all find out I'm right


    I think Maul should have had a bigger role. When I first heard that the new bad guy had the same first name as Darth Vader I assumed they would be as evil as Vader. Maul was a really lame villain. He only had one speaking part and didn't do anything evil, except kill Qui-Gon who needed it anyway

    By the way, Fisto I'm not sure what this stuff is either
  22. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    No, Maul did NOT disappear.
  23. scuiggefest Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    Back to the subject
    Qui-Gon should appear as a Jedi ghost in my opinion.

    The more characters, the merrier
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "No, Maul did NOT disappear."

    Neither did Qui-gon! [face_laugh]
  25. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I think all of the major "good" characters in Episode III should hold hands in a huge circle and, while Sidious is zapping them with DS Lightning, they can all sing "magic ring, round and round, take us flying off the ground."

    And they all disappear, just like that <snap>

    And then they all get inserted into the Ultra Final Omega Supreme Edition of ROTJ, and everyone sings the Ewok song.

    Lucas would then undoubtedly be the coolest person of all time. And then he could disappear.
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