Saga Should the Jedi only serve the Republic, or all people?

Should the Jedi only serve the Republic, or all people?



I feel the PT Jedi had become too bureaucratic, too tied to the (corrupt and failing) Republic government, and made a thousand times worse when they agreed to serve as Generals and combatants during the Clone Wars. It might have taken Palpatine to complete the Republic's decline into an Empire, but the Republic already had severe problems, and the Jedi tied themselves to it and limited themselves to serving it... and it was their ties to the Republic that ultimately wiped them out in Order 66. Lucas showed how the Jedi had lost their way doing this.

In the OT, Yoda stayed out of it all, Obi-wan was on his way to the Rebellion but Luke was his main concern, and Luke himself was just another pilot/soldier who was allowed to wander-off for Jedi reasons. Luke wins by throwing away his lightsaber, the opposite of how the Jedi eagerly joined the fight for the Clone Wars. Luke has regained the true Jedi way.

And in the new-canon books (like Bloodline, 6 years before TFA), it's revealed that Luke has been training his new Jedi far away from the Republic, the Senate sees him as more of a legend from another time, and we all know how he exiled himself even further by the time the ST properly begins. Also in the new books, we learn that there are many more independent systems that were once part of the Old Republic/Empire but chose to remain independent and not join the New Republic. The New Republic is clearly not the only government in the galaxy. Also, the First Jedi probably existed before the Republic as well, and definitely before it was a nearly-galactic institution.



The Jedi serve best as "guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy" when they are not tied to being representative of a certain government, who can't help people beyond the jurisdiction their government gives them. This isn't some idealistic utopian thing, this is going back to the true roots of the Jedi: let good people do good things. It's going back to how the Jedi were depicted in the OT, and how Luke was training the new Jedi after Endor.

The Jedi should be able to go where they feel the will of the Force is guiding them. Jedi can still serve in the military if they feel that's what the Force wants for them... but as individuals (like Luke in the OT) not as an organization or formal affiliation (like the PT Jedi).

If sometimes the Force guides a Jedi to take vigilante action, like take down a Hutt gangster or local/regional Tyrant, and free the slaves, then they should be allowed to follow it. If that makes them a fugitive from justice on that world, well it's just how the Jedi were under the Empire. But especially since there's now a New Republic, this probably wouldn't be the path for every Jedi.

Jedi serve the Force, All Life, not one government.

Not turning a blind eye to slavery for generations on worlds it's known to exist. Luke didn't wait for a government's permission to act. Qui-gon, one of the best Jedi depicted in the PT, proven to be closer to the right path for the Jedi all along, was known to bend the rules. The Jedi can exist without a government sponsor. And sometimes, definitely should... and even definitely should act against the government.

The Jedi should be diverse. You train to be a Jedi, but being a Jedi is not itself a job. An individual can be a Jedi scientist. A Jedi painter. A Jedi pilot. A Jedi soldier. A Jedi spy. A Jedi businessman/philanthropist. A Jedi librarian. A Jedi doctor. A Jedi monk. A Jedi ambassador. Let the individual discover which pathway the Force is guiding that individual to go. But no government affiliation as an organization.



I know this discussion can be tied very closely to the political structure of the Republic, but I think it deserves its own topic, and the mod in that thread thought it was too much of a tangent. I believe it can definitely be its own topic. But while arguing is obviously good, of course focus on the argument, and on some points it's ok to agree to disagree on an opinion.

Bazinga'd Alexrd

 

The Jedi were presented in the OT as "guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic". Only in the opening crawl of TPM are they referred to as "guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy". Which is still true considering that in all the galaxy, they are the existing guardians of peace and justice. Just like the Republic is the democracy of the galaxy. But the whole galaxy is not a democracy. And the Jedi can only represent peace and justice where they are allowed to (within the Republic). Without the consent of the senate (and by extension, the people) how can they claim to represent justice? They can't. That would make them vigilantes. As one can see, Qui-Gon is as important in Tatooine as a farmer or a dealer. His Jedi status and respective judicial powers are meaningless.

The Jedi don't turn a blind eye to slavery either. It's simply not something that they can solve. Freeing a slave doesn't end slavery. They can't threaten or kill the Hutts. That doesn't end slavery either. For that to happen, there would have to be a society effort. That's not a Jedi's job. Just like it's not a policeman's job to end a dictatorship on some foreign country.

The Jedi are also very limited in numbers. They can barely manage to deal with the problems within the Republic (where they are allowed to work), let alone deal with problems where they are powerless and have no jurisdiction over.

Also, being a Jedi is more than a job. It's a way of life. Jedi are trained in the most varied of arts. You don't get to do what you want as a Jedi. That's the opposite of the Jedi way. They can do what they are good at as long as it serves the Jedi way. Being tied to a democractic government (which is what allows them to do Jedi work) doesn't exclude that.

 

I think both topics are related, but it's fine either way. One can't talk about the structure of the Republic without talking about the Jedi, which is its law enforcement institution.

 

Ghost, you're articulating almost all of what I ever thought about the Jedi!

 

They should adhere to the will of the Force. If that means breaking man-made laws, then so be it. Sometimes, it is illegal to do the right thing.

 

They serve the people through serving the Republic .

 

Ah, but the Jedi serve the Force, while darksiders seek to enslave it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've gotten the impression that the Force favors compassion.

...or, rather, that it strives for balance, which makes it necessary to help the light side since the dark side will otherwise dominate the universe.

 

They do.

 

I don't believe they always do that, actually.

 

How come?

 

Jedi must serve the Force; that is what makes them Jedi. Life creates the Force, makes it grow. Ergo, a true Jedi serves all life as best he or she can. They can't let political boundaries stop them from serving all life; of course they must be aware of the boundaries and willing to deal with the consequences of opposing local laws and customs. But when doing the right thing means going outside the law, it's time to be an outlaw.

 

Sith serve themselves, and they pervert the Force to do it.

 

They force the Force to do their will, and the backlash from the Force is what makes Sith look like walking dead. If you use the power of life to promote death, there have to be consequences, equal and opposite reactions and all that.

 

The Jedi should have been parallel to the Republic not subservient to it. That's what led to their downfall. They became too endangering politicis instead of the Force. They should have been serving all of the people of the Galaxy not just those in the Republic.

 

The Jedi and the Republic form a symbiant circle. What happens to one will affect another. The Jedi need the Republic because they cannot do it all themselves, or risk becoming the Sith. That's how they came into existence which is going against not only the Force, but against the Republic to do what they wanted and how they wanted to do it. It is not up to the Jedi to end slavery, it is the Republic's choice to do so or not. They can help, but they cannot do it for them. It's like with Superman, he could end wars by himself, but he'd be an enemy in doing so. He interferes too much by getting involved on the political stage, then he becomes that which he opposes. So he lets the governments work it out for themselves and helps only when he can.

Qui-gon couldn't put everyone at risk by taking his Lightsaber to Jabba and overthrowing him in order to end slavery on Tatooine. But Obi-wan could help negotiate an alliance with the Hutts to allow the Republic to use Hutt hyperspace routes for the war effort. Luke went to Tatooine to free Han, not to kill Jabba and end his rule. With Jabba dead, the Hutts had someone else take over and slavery still exists.

 

What Sarge said.

I always thought (and I will think this until the Sequel Trilogy is completely out, I have watched it, and taken into account what is has to say about the Force), that Balance is Light by definition. Ah, the things Illumination will do for you . . .

OK, not to get sidetracked, I think that the Jedi are, by definition, servants of the Light, and therefore servants of Balance. Unfortunately, not all those in the Jedi Order, or those who call themselves 'Jedi' are actually Jedi so much as puffed up Pharisees.

Well, to be fair, a lot of them aren't. A lot of them are just good, well-meaning, kind people doing the best they can . . . and not relating very well to the Galaxy because they were raised in isolation. I have problems with this, and I went to ordinary state schools from the ages of four to sixteen, and then went to a smart private school before working as a waitress for a year specifically so that I could find it easier to relate to people outside my church before going to university. For someone educated and sheltered all their life in the Temple, there's going to be a big disconnect with other people, just because of the difference in experience. Case in point, Anakin. Which is why I think that Jedi should be raised in a normal environment, go to local school, learn a trade, and be Knights, Civil Servants, Soldiers, Tinkers, Doctors, Nurses, Waiters, Tailors, Spacers, Mechanics, Wanderers, Miners, Factory Employees, and White Collar Managers. They can be guardians of peace and justice just as well there as they can taking orders from the Senate Floor.

I think there were probably other Jedi, though, who thought that they knew everything, and that they were better than the peons of the Galaxy just by virtue of being Jedi, and who put on the most pious masks they could, even to themselves. Those guys wouldn't have been deserving of the title 'Jedi', because they'd missed the big part of what being a Jedi was all about: self-sacrifice and service of others. I actually think that Anakin had a mild case of this, but to his credit, he was aware, albeit vaguely, that it was a problem, and he never pretended to be more pious than he was: he actually made the effort, sometimes, to Be Good and to Be Humble, though with little success.

Then there's the infamous 'non-attachment' theory. I can understand why this is - it's healthy to move on from relationships that have ended, and to know that you can't control the other end of a person's relationship with you - but I wonder if the Jedi had taken it too far. One of the things that's important in being able to help people is this little thing called 'Empathy'. And this is coming from someone who's family (and self) has a history with Asperger's Syndrome. Go Figure. Anyway, what 'Empathy' means is 'Feeling With'. (Sympathy, for the record, means 'feeling for'). You need to feel people's sorrows and joys with them. You need to cry with them, grieve with them. Of course you're going to be emotionally invested in a person if you do that! It's called 'caring'. The problem, I think, was that the Jedi had mixed up 'caring for someone' with 'attachment'. Or at least, that's how it came across to Anakin, and by extension, to us. Now, I realise that impartiality is needed for justice. But there's a time and a place for that, just like there's a time and a place for love and emotion.

On top of that, I think (I freely admit I am being very strongly influenced by my background here), I think the Jedi were too legalistic (concerned with Following Rules), than spiritual (letting the Force guide them), and that this was a symptom of the way they were over-detaching themselves, and more seriously, of their increasing detachment from the Light. Their organisational structures were basically stifling spiritual growth.

So instead of the Jedi Order being a bunch of humble, spiritual guys, you have a situation where they are at best badly disconnected and at worst self-righteous.

The Jedi Order, therefore, are not the Jedi per se, although there's a lot of overlap. Just like not every churchgoer is a Christian - and if I'm honest, that includes me a lot more than I'd like to admit.

Got that? OK. I think that the Jedi being tied up to the Republic is a symptom and a cause of many of the problems outlined above. They want to help the Galaxy, so they ally with the Republic to do so. So far, so good - only their love for Rules means they can't go beyond the Republic's boundaries (I think we established they existed in Politics Thread). This, of course, poses a problem - the people outside the Republic aren't getting help, even though the Force is with them too. But because of detachment taken too far, the Jedi don't feel a burning need to help out, with the seeming exception of Anakin, and even that erodes as he gets more disillusioned. Which means that in a real sense, the Jedi aren't serving the Light anymore, because the Light is for all the beings in the Galaxy, not just the ones in the Republic. Ergo, the Jedi Order aren't really the Jedi anymore.

So naw, the Jedi shouldn't just be operating in the Republic.

Now, I understand that it's necessary for there to be SOME 'Jedi Organisation/Agency/Bureau/Board of Political and Humanitarian Affairs/NGO', which would have to liaise with, and help, temporal governments in different matters. But that shouldn't be the be-all-and-end-all of the Jedi. They're servants of the Light, and the Light is more than just a bunch of governments, banks, and NGOs. Individuals can go where organisations can't.

I also understand, as a concession to the Jedi, the importance of religious unity. I have an ecumenical dream or two myself. But compared to Christianity, which is as orthodox (what you believe) as it is heterodox (what you do), the Jedi are more orthoprax and less orthodox, which means they don't have to have Councils and Orders everywhere to keep matters of doctrine in line.

 

And they do. The problem is where they can't. They can't end slavery on Tatooine. That's not a Jedi's job. It's a society effort. And they can't be guardians of justice where they have no jurisdiction.

 

But the Republic isn't the entire galaxy, and is quite flawed.

In the Old Republic, it wasn't even that Democratic, with Senators appointed by the system's leader in at least some cases, and not all systems had democratically-elected leaders either. Then there's also the corruption.

But the Republic isn't all of the people, and is quite flawed.

The Jedi don't need the Republic. They obviously didn't prosper during the OT, but that was the Jedi at their best, at their roots. Cooperation from governments can help some do what the Force is guiding them to do, but not always. The Jedi shouldn't be a formal organization.

You seem to think I'm talking about Jedi dictators. I'm not. I'm talking about Jedi acting as individuals, following the Force. Jedi painters. Jedi doctors. Jedi librarians. Jedi authors. Jedi teachers. And sometimes, like Luke in the OT, a Jedi who's individually affiliated with a government.

Why is it not up to the Jedi to end slavery? What if the Republic is being corrupt and neglectful? What if it's beyond the borders of the Republic?

And I don't really like or agree with Superman as you just described him, so that's not the best metaphor.

The dark side is an individual imposing their will on the Force, the light side is following the will of the Force. The will of the Force is the voice of all life, it is good.

Like the two quotes below:

That's my understanding too.

Exactly.

For all the reasons already described. They were serving Palpatine and the dark side when they decided to fight for the Republic in the Clone Wars, that's the big one. They shouldn't accept slavery. You can only have one first priority. For the Jedi, should it be the Republic or the will of the Force? The Jedi compromises themselves by choosing the Republic in the PT, and that led to their doom.

Yes, they served the Old Republic. That was their flaw. They should be the guardians for the entire galaxy.

As I described above, and in the original post, the Galactic Republic is not really galactic nor is it really democratic.

No, this is not true: "And the Jedi can only represent peace and justice where they are allowed to (within the Republic)."

Governments are not necessarily just.

As for the vigilante argument, please see the first post in this thread, I already answered this there. It shouldn't be the first option, and probably wouldn't be the calling for every Jedi... but in some cases, it should happen.

"As one can see, Qui-Gon is as important in Tatooine as a farmer or a dealer. His Jedi status and respective judicial powers are meaningless."
--- Sot? Martin Luther King was only a preacher. Jedi shouldn't have special status or judicial powers just because they're Jedi. But they do have the Force.

"The Jedi don't turn a blind eye to slavery either. It's simply not something that they can solve."
--- They should attempt to solve it, then they can say whether it's possible or not. They had a thousand years of peace to work on it.

"Freeing a slave doesn't end slavery."
--- But it does make all the difference in the universe to that slave. Ever read the Starfish story?
https://www.cityyear.org/about-us/culture-values/founding-stories/starfish-story

"They can't threaten or kill the Hutts. "
--- That should definitely not be the first option, but if they're a tyrant, oppressing and terrorizing and killing people... then yes, threaten to imprison them and end their threat.

"For that to happen, there would have to be a society effort. That's not a Jedi's job. Just like it's not a policeman's job to end a dictatorship on some foreign country."
--- It should be a Jedi's job. A Jedi should not be comparable to a policeman. This is my whole point.

"The Jedi are also very limited in numbers. They can barely manage to deal with the problems within the Republic (where they are allowed to work), let alone deal with problems where they are powerless and have no jurisdiction over."
--- This is not a good argument. Most of what they were doing for the Republic was doing the Republic's work, not following the Force. One Jedi can make a big difference. They are not powerless. They shouldn't care about jurisdiction if they're doing what the Force is guiding them to do, which is to say, whatever is the right thing to do. The Republic's judicial branch should be in charge of the judicial side of things... and this should not include the Jedi as an organization. If some individual Jedi wish to join the Judicial branch because that's where the Force is guiding them, then they do so as individuals.

"Also, being a Jedi is more than a job. It's a way of life. Jedi are trained in the most varied of arts. You don't get to do what you want as a Jedi. That's the opposite of the Jedi way. They can do what they are good at as long as it serves the Jedi way."
--- You're right, it is a way of life. The Jedi doesn't get to choose what the Force wants them to do, they serve the Force and all life. That is the Jedi way.

"Being tied to a democractic government (which is what allows them to do Jedi work) doesn't exclude that."
--- Yes, it does.

I just addressed this point above, but to repeat for emphasis:

It should be a Jedi's job. This is my whole point. Yes, they can help end slavery. They can be leaders of social reform. They shouldn't be policemen. They shouldn't have jurisdiction (as an organization, though some individuals could be called to that path by the Force). The Jedi should be at the grassroots level, not overseeing from their bureaucratic ivory tower. The Jedi should not be separate from society. The Jedi should be a part of society.

 

THIS, so much! Yes, the Jedi should absolutely be part of society. They should be living, not just glaring down from an ivory tower!