Saga Should the Jedi only serve the Republic, or all people?

darth-sinister, I added in more to my posts above before edit time was over.

 

The Empire, once the Republic becomes as such in ROTS, is not morally good. But too many see it as morally good because they believe that the Empire is better than the failed Republic since it offers security and stability that was lacking in the Republic.

What is morally right is subjective as not everyone agrees about what is morally right. There are those who see the Jedi's actions in the Clone Wars as hypocritical of their stated mandate and their attempt at removing Palpatine as an extension of that. They bought into the power grab that Palpatine spewed as his justification for Order 66. Likewise, if the Jedi were independent agents, then attempting to remove Palpatine would still have the same effect because the Jedi have no oversight and no connection to the Republic, that they could be accused as working for the Separatist Movement. Or operating on their own to overthrow the Republic as the Sith have done.

Just because it was morally right to remove Palpatine once he was revealed to be a Sith, doesn't make it the right move to make at the time. It only becomes right once the people see through the fog of lies laid out by Palpatine on their own.

So Luke is right because it's the Alliance, but the Jedi are wrong because it's the Republic? That doesn't make sense. The PT Jedi are fighting for the same thing that the Republic was fighting for. Which was to restore peace and stability against the Sith led Confederacy Of Independent Systems, just as the Jedi of the OT are fighting for the same thing the Alliance was fighting for. Which was to restore peace and stability against the Sith led Galactic Empire.

That's what being the guardians of peace and justice were. That's how Lucas has always defined it.

 

Have you guys read the Obi-Wan & Anakin comic series? In it, we learn of Anakin's (age 13-ish) dissatisfaction with the fact that the Jedi can only act according to their jurisdiction through the Republic on behalf of the Senate.
(Although he would already be aware of this from his life as a slave on Tatooine).

We also learn that Anakin has decided to leave the Jedi Order and continue his growing relationship with the Force on his own. His main reason for wanting to leave is due to his feeling that there is more to learn about the Force than by the means the Jedi have to offer. Obi-Wan also speaks of his impatience and frustration with the Jedi's more methodic ways.

They visit a devastated, war-torn planet that the Jedi did not help because it was outside of the Republic and to which it was of no value.





We also see Palpatine give him a small taste of acting on his own accord outside of the Order's sanction.


In the end Anakin decides

Spoiler

to stay with the Jedi Order, because he realizes he can do more good as part of a body than out on his own.

 

darth-sinister

You're ignoring what you responded to. The Jedi should be regarded as members of "the people."

There's a huge difference. One is making all Jedi into a bureaucratic branch of the government. The other is saying individual Jedi can choose the life they want to live, and if some join the government/military then they do so as individuals. If you can't see the difference, there's no point arguing with me about it further.

I was responding to how you said it's morally right to serve the Empire. So if you think the PT Jedi were perfect, and if you think it's morally right to serve the Empire, (2 obviously separate things) then it's not a discussion worth having.

See the thread title. It prevents them from serving all the people. The Jedi are recognized as an order that's sworn to the Republic in the PT.

You know, it would help if you quotes what I was respond to too when it's relevant, like the above, so I didn't have to keep scrolling up and search down quotes in older posts. Or at least address it in your post.

The Jedi are part of the people. They are not gods.

Again, you're missing the point. There is no one stopping them. They are currently preoccupied with the biggest slaver and oppressor in the galaxy, the Empire. Once the Empire is defeated, there's nothing to stop them from doing the right thing if they don't swear to become obedient bureaucratic officers and agents of the New Republic.

Because they are taught from infanthood that they are servants of the Republic. We've already brought up how it limits them. You cannot serve two masters.

It's like you're not reading what I'm writing.
"Not be tied to an organization that they represent. If a Jedi wants to interfere with the Slave Masters on Tatooine, it shouldn't be viewed as a Jedi intervention. Just a rebel leader, who also happens to be a Jedi."
Like my example, where being a Jedi is viewed as the equivalent of, say, being a college graduate... not being affiliated with an organization.

They didn't know immediately that Dooku was a Sith. They went to war with the Separatists because they were sworn to the government of the Republic. And if they did know Dooku was a Sith, they didn't need to wade through the Droid Armies to face him, that's idiotic.

No. You're not getting it. The separatist sentiment already existed. The flaws of the Republic already existed. As I said:
"The Separatists only went looking for a droid army because Palpatine wouldn't let them secede peacefully. That the threat of force would make the Republic let them go, not necessarily attack the Republic, for all they knew."

Obviously. And if the Jedi were a neutral party, they could have succeeded. And if they didn't, they shouldn't have taken a side.

Dooku wasn't mind-controlling them. He manipulated them and led them and nudged them into the direction he wanted them to go.

What are you even talking about? Did you even read what you responded to?

Again: "Yes, they could. And without taking a side in the Clone Wars. Or being an organization.
Individual Jedi can work with organizations like the Republic/Rebellion/Resistance without becoming an organization branch of them."

No, that's idiotic almost beyond words. Two dark-robed men didn't create all problems in the universe. They exploit and aggravate what's already there. There were many valid reasons to leave the Republic, and you shouldn't even need one.

Wrong. The Republic was sometimes beyond flawed to the point of being evil.

And you sound like Palpatine here.

No, that's evil.

And you're not even addressing what I wrote, instead trying to turn it into another argument. I'm not talking about the Chosen One. This is what I wrote:
"If Palpatine was also truly disarmed and at someone's mercy, take him captive. Perhaps the Sith could have been destroyed by redeeming both Sith. It all probably would have still happened the same way, but who knows for sure, like I was saying above. The point is that you shouldn't kill someone at your mercy, and you shouldn't have "kill" be the only option for dealing with an enemy. That's the true Jedi way."

Yes, you were.

And who said they would be dictating how they live their lives? You're trying to create another strawman and not address the actual argument.

"If they show up, my position would be the same. And no, no one should be considered a god because they have more power. And it's funny you're citing aliens, when a big point in Star Wars EU is how wrong it is to discriminate against aliens, just as it's wrong to discriminate against race or gender. And it's funny you're citing Mutants, when the big point of X-Men is that mutants should be treated as equals, that they're still human and should be treated as ordinary members of society like everyone else."

Strawman. I shouldn't even respond to this. They are not above others. You are being discriminating. They are not special. Everyone has different gifts and abilities. They are not deciding the world, they are not dominating. Stop saying I'm arguing for things I'm not arguing for.

It's like you're not reading what I've been posting.

Again.

They are acting as individuals, who have received this training.

They serve the Force, they serve all people, they serve by feeling where the Force is calling them.

If some feel called to a particular injustice, they try to cooperate with the legitimate authority to fix it.

If they can't, because the legitimate authority is someone like Governor Tarkin or Jabba the Hutt, and they've found no other option, then they can join others who are actively resisting and rebelling against them.

Any Jedi should be part of it if they feel called to it, because they are part of the people and Jedi shouldn't be a special status, and not an organization. And you know what? The Jedi and their allies in the resistance movement might fail and die, but they should still do it because it's right. How is that "might makes right"? Let me put this another way, using a real life example. What you're saying sounds as ridiculous to me as if you were to argue "no, college graduates shouldn't be allowed to join Martin Luther King's civil rights movement, the college graduates shouldn't decide how people should live, or force civil rights on others even if it's morally right." That's how ridiculous your argument is sounding to me. Read what I've been writing. Understand this.

You are not answering anything.

Me: The Jedi should be green.You: No, the Jedi are brown.
Me: What I'm saying is the Jedi should be green.
You: You're missing the point, they're still brown.
Me: No, in my idea, I'm saying they aren't brown!
You: They were this, that makes them brown.

Yes, they are. That's what this thread is about. Which do we think is morally right... serving a government, or serving all people?

Again:
"My point is... do you think Superman is morally right to serve the Nazis, if that's what he was born into? But you seem to have answered that question already when you said it's morally right to serve the Empire."

Then why did you, a few posts ago, say it would be morally right to serve the Empire?

No. You're either missing the point or intentionally creating a strawman to fight instead of my actual arguments.

As I wrote: "If the Jedi weren't an organization, "the Jedi" as a whole can't be asked to "do" anything. I'm sure individual Jedi would defend the Republic when it was the right thing to do, which it probably was in most cases. But they should not be tied to it, seen as an extension of the Republic's judicial branch. The Jedi were very dogmatic and set in their ways by the time of the PT. Their duty shouldn't have been to serve the Republic in all cases to begin with. Palpatine was able to manipulate the Jedi in that way because they already had a very Republic-centric worldview. Joining the military as an individual, like Luke, is fine, as I've been saying."

So much wrong here.

As I've repeated numerous times, they didn't know Dooku was a Sith at first, and he wasn't mind-controlling them.

As I've repeated numerous times, the separatists had valid reasons to leave the Republic.

As I've repeated numerous times, the PT Jedi should not have been fighting for the same thing as the Republic.

As I've repeated numerous times, it was the Republic that broke the peace and stability, by refusing to let them go.

As I've repeated numerous times, both Republic and Confederacy had good and evil in them, and in that kind of conflict the Jedi should have stayed out, at least as an organization, and tried to negotiate an end to the fighting as a neutral third party, and provided humanitarian support to both sides, and perhaps some would be called by the Force to conduct covert strikes against Palpatine and Dooku once it was revealed they were Sith.

As I've repeated numerous times, the fight against the Empire was a fight against clear evil, just like how the slave-masters are clear evils.

It doesn't have to be. There's a difference between describing something as they were written, and saying that's what they should be.

I repeat: they can be better guardians of peace and justice than what they were, and not a police force organization.





Thank you for posting that, Subtext Mining

 

I'm not ignoring. The only way to be part of the people is to be like Leia in TFA, not trained in the Jedi Arts and contributing that way. Their Jedi training is what keeps them apart, because not everyone uses the Force. And the Jedi shouldn't be the ones leading uprisings and what not. They should just defend the people.

All of the Jedi choose how they want to live. They choose to serve as Jedi, or quit and go it on their own as Dooku claimed he was doing. There's nothing stopping them from doing so.

I said that some people believe that the Empire is right, just as they believe the Republic to be wrong. If no one thought it was morally wrong, the Empire wouldn't have lasted as long and there wouldn't be the First Order.

And that's serving the people.

First, that's too much text to keep quoting. Second, they are gods. They can never be part of the people because of their powers and training. Not even Kanan and Ezra are part of the people.

Yes, there are people who will stop them. It's called the government. Even not serving, if the Republic worries that they're getting too big for their britches, they'll take them down.

Why? Who says?

I'm reading it, but you're failing to grasp what I'm saying. There's a reason that the Jedi are organized. It's more effective and efficient way of doing things. They work together to get the job done. That's why the Republic stood as long as it did.

They knew that Dooku had gone to the dark side, because he would never do what he was planning to do unless he had. That's why Obi-wan called him a traitor as soon as he walked in his cell.

OBI-WAN: "Traitor."

DOOKU: "Oh, no, my friend. This is a mistake, a terrible mistake. They have gone too far. This is madness."

Remember, Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu both said that Dooku was a political idealist and not a terrorist. He would never try to assassinate a senator. Their arrogance had blinded them and now they knew the truth. So, they knew that he was a problem and after the Battle of Geonosis, they realized that he was now the Apprentice of this Darth Sidious. His power was that of a Sith and the way he talked about interfering in their plans spelled it out for Yoda. But, yes, they had to fight through the Droid Army to get to him. He had them with him almost all the time, along with bounty hunters and those like Ventress. And if they didn't fight, then they wouldn't be serving the people. How can they protect the people if they don't fight for them?

The flaws did exist, but they were exaggerated by the Sith.

They would never succeed because the Sith would sabotage them as they did throughout the war. When you have a Sith Lord controlling things, there's no way it can get done without eliminating them. And yes, they will take a side because the Sith control the Separatists. No matter what, they had to get involved.

That's still controlling them. If you manipulate someone, you're controlling them.

If the Jedi had huge numbers, they'd organized to fight the Empire and work with the Alliance to do it.

Lucas says otherwise.

Evil is a point of view.

Really? Then Luke is evil because he killed a **** load of people in order to win the war. Luke had to kill everyone on the Death Star in order to destroy it. Leia didn't need to kill Jabba in order to get free, but she choked his ass. Han shot Greedo. They didn't need to kill to win a war, but they did. And sometimes even the Jedi have to kill if there is no other option. And no, the Sith couldn't be just redeemed. That's why Yoda says that, "Forever will it dominate your destiny." Experience from the Jedi shows that it couldn't really happen. Hell, Luke couldn't even reach Ben and he turned around and killed his own father.

Saying that no one wants aliens telling them what to do, much less super powered beings, isn't discriminating.

Because the Jedi are forcing their views on slavery, corruption in politics and so on by doing it and saying, "You're wrong and I'm right and I'm going to use my powers to force you to stop.

Just because they should be respected, doesn't mean that it will happen. Mutants will always be hated by non Mutants because of their powers and the fear of non-Mutants becoming extinct will always be there. That's why it always ends badly in the possible futures. We never see Xavier's dream come true. It always ends as Magneto says it would. And in "Star Wars", it is no different with the Jedi. Either human or alien, they're different from everyone else and they can be discriminated because of that.

You have to accept that there are different points of view and not all of them are positive.

But not everyone is Tarkin or Jabba. The Jedi served the Chancellor and the Senate, most of the time were good and honest people. There was nothing wrong with that. And yes, when they realized that Palpatine was a problem, they contemplated doing something, but also realized that it could take them to a dark place. One that they were not comfortable with.

Understand, this is different from what you're arguing. The Jedi are different from ordinary people. If these college graduates were super powered individuals, the argument would be in my favor.

They're serving everyone by working with the government.

Yes, it is morally right to him. Not to me. You need to understand the difference. That's what points of view are.

Because not everyone shares our world view. Tarkin believes that he is right. So did Admiral Yurlan and we know that he was a very good man, but he believed that the Empire was not evil and corrupt. He believed it was morally right to. Even with the Death Star, knowing that it would destroy worlds and kill people, both innocent and not so innocent. Look at Agent Kallus. He believed in the Empire at first until Zeb wound up changing his mind.

Because your argument doesn't make sense. What if Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were evil? Would Luke be right to serve them?

The war against the Confederacy was a clear evil because of the Sith, who were going to attack the Republic and take over using the Separatist Movement to advance their agenda. It was the most clear evil ever. It didn't matter if they found out Dooku was a Sith Lord before or after the Battle of Geonosis, the fact is that he was no longer a Jedi and had now turned to the dark side. He was in charge. He was the leader and he was serving another evil. If the Sith weren't involved, it would be a whole different matter.

 

Without a dead Jabba it would have been exceedingly difficult for Leia to get her chains unlocked.

 

Luke could have come in and cut the chains. Or Artoo as he wound up doing.

 

darth-sinister

Their Jedi training DOES NOT keep them apart, and nobody should treat them like it does. The Jedi are part of the people, and should be recognized as such.

Let's say my idea, which I've described multiple times in multiple different ways, happened or happens. Either it happened in a What If, in that's how the Jedi were for the 1000 years before the movies. Or it happens with Luke and Rey, and that's the path the Jedi are clearly on after the ST and it's their duty to make it work. And let's just add in, as a What If, that Lucas comes out and says that's what he always thought the Jedi should ideally be. Accept these assumptions for these what-if scenarios. Having accepted the premise, what do you find so wrong with it?

Then the Jedi should be trained like Luke. Having a normal, non-Jedi childhood raised by parent figures. So they're not brainwashed into that life to begin with, so they've experienced and know there's another way. And allow a Jedi to marry and raise a family... just stress how it's important to not let your darker feelings cloud your judgment, or act immorally.

That's not what you were saying before, and why I kept asking you to give a clear answer of what YOU thought. Since you said the Jedi serve the government, but the Sith rule a government, and you were saying that's what made the Jedi moral and the Sith immoral. So I asked if there were Force-users (or really anyone) selflessly serving the Empire, would that be morally good? After asking you several times, you said yes, it was morally good to serve the Empire. So what is it? Is it morally good to serve the Empire, or not?

Not all the people, see that canon comic clip for a new example. And not always fairly either, see them never doubting they'd take the Chancellor's side in the Separatist crisis during AOTC, not listening to the Separatists' point of view.

Then please at least address it in your response, like "I don't agree with you on ____ because ___." So no one has to scroll up to find out which point was being addressed.

No, that's wrong. Jedi are not gods.

No, that's wrong. Yes they most certainly can be. Their gifts and training don't change that. You have a very elitist, discriminatory view.

They certainly do act that way in Rebels, and Luke in the OT.

This post is not following from the point I was making.
If a Jedi comes across a situation where they can help, or if they feel called to focus on actively helping the anti-slavery cause, they should be allowed to. Especially if the government isn't.

Technically, that's a Bibllical quote from God/Jesus. But disregard that, just think about it. You can only have one #1 priority. If you have 2 #1 priorities, they could eventually conflict with one another, and you must choose. That's logic. Jedi can serve either the Republic first, or all the people first. As already said, the Republic doesn't include everyone, and the Republic isn't always fair, and the Republic doesn't always have the resources to do everything it should. Those are 3 good reasons why Jedi shouldn't be required to serve the Republic first, instead of all people/the Force.

There wouldn't be a rule against them working in groups, or most of them getting together and organizing. But there would be no "this is the Jedi organization, if you're not in this organization then you're not a Jedi and we have nothing to do with you." It's way too centralized, rigid, dogmatic, and exclusive in the PT.

No. There's such a thing as covert operations. Since you bring up the TV shows a lot, remember how Assaj and the Nightsisters ambushed him alone in his bedroom? You don't need an army to get to someone. It happens all the time in real life too... independent actors able to capture/kill leaders of armies.

Says who? If the Republic and Confederacy were going to war, and I've established that neither side was nearly completely good or evil (unlike the Empire/Rebels conflict). Taking a side in that war isn't serving all the people, only some people. In the case of what happened, only the Republic, not all people.

That's what I've been saying. It wasn't like the Senators were all singing kumbaya before the Sith gained influence over the Senate, or like all the people they were supposed to be representing were singing kumbaya along with their representatives (even when they were just appointed by the planet's monarch, who him/herself might be unelected too).

Then there's the rest of what I've been saying... and if negotiations failed, they shouldn't taken a side, just continue to attempt negotiations, run humanitarian missions to both sides, and maybe focus on capturing/removing the Sith. No matter what they did, they did not need to get involved.

They didn't know Dooku with a Sith at first. And he wasn't mind-controlling the Separatists. Without Dooku, the Separatists would still remain, and they still had valid reasons to leave.

Also, Dooku might have been an evil person, but a lot of his evil was hidden. In just the movies (since my TCW knowledge is rusty, everything else about Dooku is basically no longer canon, and since the movies are supposed to be all that's necessary for the main story), we never see Dooku do anything clearly evil except (1) when he speaks to Sidious at the end and we know he's in on the Clone Wars charade, and (2) when we learn Dooku signed off on assassinating Senator Amidala, to appease Nute Gunray. That's it. Being the leader of an independence movement is not inherently evil. Neither was arresting a Republic spy, arresting two more Republic agents sent to free spy and who had killed many Geonosians, defending Geonosis against an invading Jedi army then invading Clone Army, defending himself against 3 Jedi when attempting to flee, or trying to capture the leader of the opposing government who declared war on you to try and force a negotiated end to the war on the Separatists' terms. Even Lucas in the AOTC commentary says we're not supposed to know for sure that Dooku is a villain until that final scene with Sidious at the end of AOTC.

No it's really not. They're related but usually mean very different things. And definitely do in this context. Manipulate is how Palpatine manipulated Amidala in TPM to call for a vote of no confidence. Control is Palpatine ordering the Second Death Star to begin firing on Rebel ships.

No, Lucas never said all problems and conflicts in Star Wars were caused by Sith.

The GFFA is supposed to reflect the real world, and human nature.

It is human nature to disagree. It is human nature that sometimes people choose to handle those conflicts negatively instead of positively. It's not the Sith's fault that Anakin was so attached to Shmi and Padme that he would kill for them. They didn't implant those feelings into his head. They used what was already there. Same with the Republic.

I believe in objective morality.

People may disagree on the objective morality, but I believe it does exist.

Moral relativism is nihilistic, and the path to either chaotic suffering, or tyranny of the majority, or might makes right, or extreme self-centeredness, or saying anything goes because nearly everyone thinks they're good. Moral relativism is the path to evil.

Remember, I wrote this: "If Palpatine was also truly disarmed and at someone's mercy, take him captive. Perhaps the Sith could have been destroyed by redeeming both Sith. It all probably would have still happened the same way, but who knows for sure, like I was saying above. The point is that you shouldn't kill someone at your mercy, and you shouldn't have "kill" be the only option for dealing with an enemy. That's the true Jedi way."

Luke was working with the only plan the Rebels had, while the Death Star was about to destroy another world within seconds. Jabba could have alerted people that Leia was free, and she might not have been able to break her chains with him still there. Han could have shot Greedo with a stun, the point of that scene was showing Han could be a cold-blooded killer, that's why his arc is one of redemption, and why Lucas later decided it was too cold-blooded. If either Luke or Leia had a clear other way, then yes, they should have taken it, and it is wrong not to. And when people inevitable do make a mistake, they can look for forgiveness, and think of what to do next time so it doesn't happen again. Yes, sometimes a Jedi needs to kill if there's no other option. That's what I was arguing with you... that there could be other options for the Sith, we saw what happened to Vader, we saw how Dooku was no longer much of a threat and could have been captured after Anakin disarmed him. That some foes don't "need" to be destroyed.
Also, Yoda was wrong. That's one of the big points of ROTJ. Yoda and Obi-wan were wrong, Luke was right.

Strawman.

Strawman, mostly.

Yes, a Jedi should enforce the ideal of no slavery in the galaxy when they can. And yes, EVERYONE (not just Jedi, but including them) should use their gifts and talents to make the world a better place. In some cases, it may be to stop slave-masters using force if all else fails.

Again:

They are acting as individuals, who have received this training.

They serve the Force, they serve all people, they serve by feeling where the Force is calling them.

If some feel called to a particular injustice, they try to cooperate with the legitimate authority to fix it.

If they can't, because the legitimate authority is someone like Governor Tarkin or Jabba the Hutt, and they've found no other option, then they can join others who are actively resisting and rebelling against them.

Using your logic, you would have opposed Martin Luther King, because he couldn't completely end racism.

I do accept they exist.

Exactly. That's why they don't always have to go against the government, and should try cooperating with it first, and exhaust all options before rebelling against it.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the Jedi should have only served them. They should have served all people.

No, it is NOT different from what I'm arguing. This is exactly what I'm arguing. You're the one who's been misunderstanding my argument. This IS what I'm arguing. Let me repeat that again to be clear: yes, this IS what I'm arguing.

No, they ARE ordinary people. Like all ordinary people, they also have special gifts. The special gifts of some ordinary people in Star Wars happens to include the Force (among others), and it's a gift they can be trained in.

They're not serving everyone. Not everyone is within reach of the government. For those who are within reach of the government, not all are served the way they should be by the government. Therefore, no, it's impossible to serve everyone by tying yourself to only be able to work for a government.

The very idea of government is imperfect: it's usually said to be a necessary evil, and the ideal would be no governments at all when we no longer need them.

I do understand the difference, as I said many posts ago.

Someone can have a point of view, and it can be wrong, either factually or morally. That's what you don't seem to understand.

I don't care about his point of view. What is your point of view? Do you think he's right, to serve a Nazi Germany that took over the world?

No, of course not. See how simple it is to answer a question like that?

No, you were simply misunderstanding it.

No it wasn't, see earlier in the post, I'm not repeating it yet again.

(and the rest of your point there doesn't make sense either... as you yourself admit they didn't know Dooku was a Sith yet and say it doesn't matter if he was a Sith or not, but then you say if they didn't know the Sith were connected then it would be an entirely different matter... and as said in previous posts, the Separatists were only armed because Palpatine wouldn't let them become independent peacefully, the Separatists weren't trying to take over the galaxy)

 

The problem I have is your idea doesn't sound anything like Jedi, it sounds more like generic superheroes. There's a great deal that sounds like the ubermensch, or the Superman. (which ironically ties in to earlier references of Superman here)

Your ideas are just that, your ideas. I'm very familiar with them, because you spread them all over the forums. The ideas you have for the Jedi/Star Wars are the same ideas you have for everything and everyone else.

I'm not sure what the hell anyone is talking about.

The Jedi, EVEN IN THE PT, live among the people. They live on Coruscant, the center of the galaxy. Padme can see them from her balcony. Obi-Wan is friends with Dex. Yoda is friends with the Wookiees.

What the hell are we talking about here? They don't live in complete isolation, thousands of miles from anyone else.

You know who does? Luke in TFA, no one even knows where he lives.

Luke offers to bargain with Jabba in ROTJ, and is doing nothing about slavery in TFA.

Can we agree that Luke is a bad Jedi, then?

Or, we might have to re-think what a Jedi is...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. How the hell do you know?

What we do know sounds like they were singing kumbaya, considering there was 1000 years of peace, and that the era is sometimes described as the Golden Age of the Republic.

Right, your beliefs, not Jedi beliefs.

Luke was ready to compromise and deal with Jabba, and is doing nothing to stop slavery in TFA. Luke is a very Bad Jedi.

Or Jedi aren't what you think they are. Yeah, it's that.

This ties in nicely. Jedi are everyone, and everyone is Jedi, basically. You have the same view for Jedi as you have for everyone else.

This all stems from seeing everything from your own perspective, it's basically wish fulfillment. Which is what this thread is about, wish fulfillment and identification. Anything you don't identify with, like lack of marriage and family, is wrong, and "not Jedi". Really, it's The Other.

You can never, ever serve "everyone", as that involves a lot of conflicting desires.

You don't care about the Jedi point of view, either. You care about your point of view, which is why you'd just have the Jedi do what you would do. It's why this thread is full of your ideas, ideas that can be found expressed by you all over these forums, about any and all subjects.

The one constant here is you. I think that if the Jedi were what you think they should be, they wouldn't be Jedi, they'd lose any sense of a unique identity and just become Ghost's Ideal People.

 

The Jedi are part of the people, but they will never truly be the same as them due to the Force.

There is no clear indication in the ST what Luke was doing when Ben lead the First Order against his Jedi. But most likely it was training new Jedi in the tradition of the old. But if Lucas had felt that the Jedi should this, then he should have made them that way in the PT. The fact that didn't is telling.

Yeah and look at Ben Solo, who killed his father and became just like his grandfather. He was raised normally but had issues that even Luke couldn't fix. Maybe if he had been trained like Obi-wan, he wouldn't be like he is now as Kylo Ren.

If you believe in it, then yes, it is. Regardless of the right and wrong, personal belief always plays a part.

They weren't interested in the Separatist point of view. They were interested in stopping the Sith.

I'm talking about them being perceived as deities. As being above the people, not because of the Temple, but because of their powers.

If Superman lived among you, would you consider him part of the people or would you consider him a god above you?

But they're still Jedi with super powers. They're not normal people.

Just because they should doesn't mean that it is right. Because they can easily become the enemy of the government.

Life isn't always fair. Second, you assume that they aren't serving the Force if they're serving the Republic. Did you ever think it is the will of the Force that they do?

You're a Jedi whether you're part of the Jedi Order or not. Remember, before finding out he was evil, Dooku was still favored as a Jedi even though he was no longer a member. They still believed that he was upholding the principles of the Jedi Order, even while acting as a political idealist. If he had never fallen to the dark side, he could still do things as a Jedi. But that doesn't mean that he had to buck the system.

Yeah, how'd that work out for Ventress? Not too well. Ventress was a dark side warrior, the Jedi aren't. That's akin to assassination. Ventress could do what she did because she knew him and knew where Dooku was and how to get to him. It's a little different trying to get to him as a Jedi without all that.

But the other side was occupied by the Sith and thus the Jedi's cause and the Republic's cause were intertwined. The enemy was clear, the Sith.

But my point is that these flaws came from the Sith and a thousand years of manipulation.

The Sith mandate that they do get involved.

Actually, the Jedi know that he's evil the minute Obi-wan hears him speak of attacking the Republic. Hence calling him a traitor.

MACE: "You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He wouldn't assassinate anyone, it is not in his character."

KI-ADI-MUNDI: "He is a political idealist, not a murderer."

Then they find out that he is doing this and that he has turned to the dark side and Yoda realizes that he has become evil.

YODA: "Powerful, you have become Dooku. The dark side, I sense in you."

YODA: "Join the dark side, Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."

So they know that he's evil. They figure out that he's a Sith very shortly afterwards and only learn of his Sith name in season six. Whether we know that he is a Sith or not, we realize as soon as we see him that he's not what he claims that he is.

The dictionary defines manipulation as "control or influence a person or a situation unfairly or unscrupulously." You're trying to argue a semantic.

Having disagreements is one thing. Being manipulated by an evil mastermind is another. If would be different if Palpatine had just come in and took advantage. Not coming in and manipulating people. Remember, Lucas said that he's pulling all the strings.

Moral relativism is life. Everyone thinks that what they do is good. The US thought that dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan was the right thing to do. Just as Hitler thought that the Holocaust was the right thing to do. Even when there is a clear right and wrong, which I do believe in, it still comes down to what people believe in as right and wrong, and even then it is not universal.

They did have a clear path and they still chose to commit murder.

But they were also right in that the Sith needed to be destroyed. It just didn't need to be Luke to do it. He did find a solution, getting his father to turn on Palpatine and then he turned around and killed Palpatine. But remember, they were wrong about Anakin, but it looks like they're right with Ben.

That's the problem. They're forcing their ideals and not the ideals of the government. If they cannot succeed in negotiation, then that's it. If they fight, they're no better than the Sith.

That's the point, the people need to do this. Not the Jedi.

No, I would support his idea of the people fighting. Not someone like Black Panther or Green Lantern John Stewart doing it.

Rebellion isn't exactly necessary.

And they do.

They're not college graduates. They're super powered beings that are part of a religion. They're just is to inspire, but to not force their will upon others.

If they want to be ordinary, don't be a Jedi. Simple.

There will always be a need for a government. That's just a fact of life. The difference is here is that the Hutts are a government unto themselves and they do not wish to be part of the Republic, nor to have the Jedi interfere without requesting it. If they go around doing what they want, that makes them no different from the Sith. And it won't be long before they become the Sith.

My point of view doesn't matter.

But what if he believed in them?

When the Jedi go to Geonosis, they know that Dooku has fallen to the dark side since his actions conflict with the Jedi training. This is confirmed when they sense the dark side within him. Now they know that the threat is from one of their own, who has turned. They quickly figure out that he's in league with Darth Sidious. The Separatists themselves weren't trying to take over, but their leaders were and were manipulating them into doing so. They were armed because they were manipulated into fighting a war so that the Sith could take over. The Jedi figured that out. What they didn't know was that the Sith were gaining power through legal means, rather than taking it by brute force as they did before. That's what the Jedi think that the war was about.

 

CT-867-5309

Not superheroes, and definitely not "ubermensch." Regular people, whose special gifts include the Force.

Jedi are people trained in the Force who are good. They've gone through many different forms. But to me, THAT is the baseline definition of a Jedi.

I know they're just my ideas... that's the point. This forum is about 2 things:
1. discussing what's happening
2. sharing our ideas

This thread in particular is about asking people to share their ideas on who the Jedi should be, particularly whether they should put all people/the Force first, or a government first. That's the whole point.

And I'm glad you noticed consistency? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? What do you think it is?

What I referred to in my first post, about being a Jedi not being a particular occupation or organization.

darth-sinister has been saying they are liked gods, I'm saying they're regular people too, and should be treated as such.

You're missing the point:
"If a Jedi comes across a situation where they can help, or if they feel called to focus on actively helping the anti-slavery cause, they should be allowed to. Especially if the government isn't."

I'm not a fan of the Jedi being limited in what they can do by the government.

A Jedi is someone who's trained in the Force who is good. That's the baseline definition for me.

The books, comics, and movies.

Yes, my beliefs. As I keep telling darth-sinister, that's the point of this thread. We've been going back and forth for a while, and the breakthrough in communication hasn't happened yet, so I'm becoming more open about my core beliefs so he can see where I'm coming from.

Jedi aren't real. This thread is about our ideas on what a Jedi SHOULD be in Star Wars fiction.

You're completely misunderstanding again, and I'm not sure why you have an attitude about it.

I'm not saying this is what I think the Jedi are. I've been very clear in saying it's how they SHOULD be.

Not exactly, but close.

The Jedi aren't everyone, not everyone is a Jedi. But choose a real-life demographic that's related in some way to being trained. I chose college graduates in a previous post. Not everyone is a college graduate, college graduates aren't everyone. But are college-graduates just regular people, and treated like regular people? Yes. That's how I think the Jedi should be treated.

Yes, I have the same view for Jedi as I have for everyone else, I'm not being discriminatory towards Jedi. What's wrong with that?

Yes, this thread is about asking people what they wish the Jedi would be, and sharing and arguing their perspective.

Not as many Saga threads I've been in have this much in-depth back-and-forth arguing (except a long time ago), which is great, it's so fun and I love it.

I'm not saying things I disagree with are "not Jedi." Just not what I think the Jedi should be. That's a CRUCIAL difference.

You most certainly can serve the common good... and you can serve others without swearing an oath to any one organization/government that can limit you if you come across a situation where you can help but can't for jurisdiction reasons.

I do, I just don't agree with it... but I really don't care about Nazi-following Superman's point of view. I've told darth-sinister before that I don't like Superman, and I don't think he's a good comparison to what I think the Jedi should be, multiple times.

Yes. And why is that a bad thing? That's the point of having forums.

And I also care about the points of view of others on this forum, but that doesn't mean I can't be assertive when arguing my point of view. That should go without saying.

In my ideas, yes, the constant is my opinion and what they should be.

I made this thread so others can also share their opinions, and we can discuss, agree, and argue.

They would be Jedi. The baseline of being a Jedi is a someone trained in the Force who is good.

 

Thanks anakinfansince1983




darth-sinister ... I'm going to read through your post and consolidate my points/responses so it's a little more readable, and maybe easier to clear-up any miscommunication. Let me know if you think I skipped anything important. Also my responses to CT above might clarify some of your questions about my point of view too.

I don't think the Force necessarily forced the Jedi to be their own class of people.

I feel the exact opposite. I've written stories too, and have analyzed other literature/movies/TV. Authors often intentionally make some of their creations flawed. As I believe Lucas even said, the Jedi in the PT were meant to seem flawed, arrogant, and detached to the point of obliviousness. If anything, Lucas is making a point that Luke, who has a normal childhood, and healthy relationships, not only becomes a Jedi but also proves Obi-wan and Yoda wrong about Vader and redemption. It doesn't make the old Jedi into bad people... just flawed. Luke is still flawed, but better.

But please, you didn't answer my hypothetical What If scenario. Please understand that's exactly what it is... a hypothetical, a What If. Accept these assumptions as the premise. I want to know your opinion. What would you think is wrong with it?
Let's say my idea, which I've described multiple times in multiple different ways, happened or happens. Either it happened in a What If, in that's how the Jedi were for the 1000 years before the movies. Or it happens with Luke and Rey, and that's the path the Jedi are clearly on after the ST and it's their duty to make it work. And let's just add in, as a What If, that Lucas comes out and says that's what he always thought the Jedi should ideally be. Accept these assumptions for these what-if scenarios. Having accepted the premise, what do you find so wrong with it?

And look at Count Dooku, who we can assume in canon was raised from infanthood in the Jedi, like everyone else. The point is that that Luke shows you can have a normal childhood and adolescence and parent-figures, and still become a great Jedi.

Please, I don't know if you're aware, but it feels like you keep dodging this issue, and have for weeks. Your opinion is what I'm asking for. Do you believe it's morally right to serve the Empire?

And that was the problem.

Thank you for clarifying.

But they don't need to be, especially in a diverse galaxy with many species with different gifts and advanced technology. And I think my idea would help a lot with fixing that perception.

Part of the people.

This is just how I am.

If intelligent aliens were to land here, to live with us (not enslave us or exterminate us or anything like that), I would fight for their equal rights.

If machines appeared to achieve sentience, I would fight for their equal rights.

And as I've gotten flak for in the JCC, I also think animals should have rights, and animals like dolphins/whales/chimps/gorillas/orangutans/dogs/cats that show near-human sentience should also be given legal rights as persons.

The Golden Rule: treat others as you would like to be treated.

Superpowers don't make you abnormal.

If I suddenly had the power to fly and become invisible, I would still be a person, I would still have my legal rights, I wouldn't gain any privileges, I'd still be under the rule of law, and I sure would resist being drafted into some organization to work only for the government. I would go on living my life the same, and would just able to do some new things, that I could use to help others. Maybe a few thousand other people also spontaneously got these powers too, and a few of them agreed to join the Navy SEALs and CIA. That's fine, but I know it's not right for me. So I keep teaching, that still feels like my calling, and I also begin to volunteer with the fire department when they need help reaching a higher-storied building, and volunteer with the police if there's a tense situation and they think I could help. Work with scientists to see what caused it, and so maybe others can gain it too.

I'm sorry, but if you say someone "should" do it, then it's because it is what's morally "right."

As I said, try cooperating with the government, and if it doesn't work, but you're sure you're in the right and they're in the wrong and you decide it's worth making a stand on... then it's ok to act in a way that the government might see you as an enemy. Back to that analogy with me suddenly being able to become invisible and fly at will, but going on living my life. I see an antiwar protest group... maybe the US has pre-emptively gone to war with China or something. I take part in the peaceful protest group. The National Guard are called in, and they're given permission to begin fatally shooting into the peaceful crowd... it's going to be another Kent State. I decide to use my powers to invisibly snatch the guns out of their hands, and throw them somewhere they can't be reached easily, even at the risk of myself getting shot or arrested. But I've decided it's a risk I'm willing to make.

Or for a Star Wars example... why Luke decides to go with Obi-wan and become a Jedi, even if it means becoming an enemy of that government and living with the consequences.

I've already explained why I don't think all Jedi should be forced to serve the Republic, and how it can limit them. As I've also said, if it is the calling for some people, then sure.

So are you saying you agree with me there? And like I said, if you didn't have to raised from birth to be trained as a Jedi, like the PT Jedi, that would reinforce this more decentralized Jedi system and make the Jedi more in-touch with those around them, less seen as something "other," and many more would feel free to operate outside of the Republic.

Not all of them. Some are human/sentient nature, and the basic setup of the GFFA.

No, I disagree. And I've already explained my point of view.

Again, Dooku (publically) isn't planning on attacking the Republic. He's amassed a droid army under the pretense that it will force the Republic to bow to their wishes and recognize their independence. I tried to find this part in the script, but couldn't. Which is fine. It's meant to deter a Republic attack to keep the Separatist worlds in the Republic. This is only an issue because the Jedi are sworn to the Republic.

Imagine a galaxy where there were 12 Republics, all about the same size, none dominating (the Corsucant Region Republic, the Alderaan Region Republic, the Naboo Region Republic, etc.). Who would the Jedi serve then? If they chose to serve all of them, what would they do when conflicts erupted between the republics, and possibly war?

That's what I'm saying how the Jedi should be looking at this Republic-Separatist conflict, instead of reflexively putting the Republic first.

As for Yoda... he may vaguely "sense" the dark side in Dooku... but the only acts Dooku has committed the Yoda knows to be morally evil is approving the assassination of Senator Amidala for Viceroy Gunray's support.

It's important that we are using the words and seeing them the same way. From life experience, most problems stem from people misunderstanding the vocabulary or the facts. I lean towards manipulate meaning "influence" more than it means outright explicit "control." It's an important distinction.

Thank you for clarifying that you don't believe in moral relativism, that you believe in objective morality. Yes, people can disagree on what the objective morality is. That's different from believing in moral relativism.

Please read the rest of this post above to understand what I mean. This is not what I mean.

My point is the Jedi are part of the people. That's what we keep returning to. See the rest of the post above.

Not usually... but sometimes, yes it is.

They weren't serving the people on the Separatist worlds. They weren't serving that planet the comic above referenced.

Yoda Voice: that is why you fail.

I'm saying the Jedi should just be treated as people who received a certain kind of training. Just like how people who are great at computer science, and want to use that gift, also usually tend to receive some kind of training for that gift. That's it.

We are getting away from the topic here, I added that tidbit so you better understood my point of view. Needless to say, I disagree. I think we can one day have technology-enabled pacifist anarchism.

Your point of view is the whole reason behind me talking with you. I don't want to debate Nazi-brainwashed Superman. I don't want to debate George Lucas. I want to debate You.

If they were evil, it would be wrong for him to follow them. It's that easy.
If he believed they were right, then we can predict he'd probably follow them.
But if you say, objectively, they were evil... then of course he SHOULD not follow them.

I know everyone believes in their point of view (though I hope most people also try to be open-minded). That's why it's good to have a debate, and clearly state what You believe and Why.

Signing off on Padme's assassination attempts, yes. That's it.

 

I'm not sure why I bother..

I know you don't think your ideas sound like superheroes and ubermensch, but from my perspective, they do. What's more, if you just read your comments, and then read the ubermensch wiki page, you'll see a lot of similarities. The first page was really striking.

Just consider it.

Right, superheroes. People who have superpowers and are good.

Which is why your ideas are so generic, and also ignore ideas that are absolutely intrinsic to the Jedi, that have applied to the Jedi across all eras. There's much, much more to the Jedi than you ascribe to them.

Right; totally, utterly, and completely vague, with nothing even slightly unique or specific to Jedi. Nothing that is even identifiable.

Your baseline definition is ridiculously inept, and leaves out many crucial details.

I don't need this forum explained to me. In fact, this thread belongs more in forums that indulge in fan fiction, like EUC. Tell me, what is particularly "Star Wars Saga In-Depth" about this topic, when it's really not about the saga at all, and is actually about what fans want the Jedi to be? If you look at Darth Nub's forum rules thread, clearly this thread does not even belong here.

Yes, it is a bad thing, that blunders ignorantly over the franchise and the unique creation that are the Jedi.

Here's what else your ideas about the Jedi apply to, other than just the Jedi. You've used the same ideas you've applied to the Jedi to describe the following:

1) The way the United States government should act. The way you've described the Jedi should be, is very similar, if not exactly the way you've described the way the United States government should be. You've described this in several JCC Senate threads.
2) The way American citizens should act. You've described this in the US Politics thread.
3) The way superheroes should act and be.
4) The way Christians should act and be.

etc etc etc


Why? Because you apply your worldview to everything and everyone.

This, your idealist utopia, your post-scarcity, everything. You apply them to everything.

You took your post-scarcity idea, ripped straight from Star Trek, and applied it to Star Wars.

You took your ideal society, which is pretty close to Star Trek, and applied it to Star Wars and the Jedi.


Do you not notice how your idea of the ideal hero, the ideal society, and post-scarcity wind up in everything you discuss, no matter the subject? Notice how it really doesn't change to match the subject?

Do you see how that makes your ideas not in any way specific, or even related, to the Jedi? Do you see how it is just you?

How can they be "what Jedi should be", if they're also what everything and everyone else should be?


Ghost, I'm trying to point out a lack of awareness here. I know these things because I've read your comments all over the boards. I see the similarities, they're glaring, impossible to miss.

No, you're evading the point. Luke condones slavery, by your own standards.

Now you're being dishonest.

You know it's the Golden Age of the Republic, and you know Palpatine said there was 1000 years of peace.

You know it's supposed to be a peaceful, good time for the galaxy...before the Dark Times. You know this.

They are "real", to an extent that they have been fleshed out. This isn't 1975, we largely don't get to decide what Jedi should be, we only get to interpret what we've been given, and extrapolate based on that. We get to imagine our "ideal" Jedi. We don't get to make them up from scratch, otherwise that's something else. I think you have done, and continue to do, a very poor job of that. What you describe is your own fictional creation, not even close to Jedi. Which, you know, in a thread asking "what Jedi should be", I think it should have something to do with Jedi and their perspective.

Again, I'll have to bring up the point that maybe your beliefs aren't relevant. Earlier, I said maybe we should base what the Jedi should be on how the six movies define the Jedi. You said you were basing it on the six movies, I think you're definitely not. I think most of your ideas are coming more from you (as evidenced by your ideas for the Jedi being the same as your ideas for everything else) than anything in the movies. Try to consider this, at least.

To be clear, I think you're doing a really bad job at thinking about this from a Jedi perspective, and what they would/should want to be. I think you're approaching this with a very obvious bias that makes your suggestions pointless. Again, it's like telling pacifists they should be blood knights. It's just...wut.

I'm not misunderstanding anything. Not one thing. I've known the entire time you've been describing what they should be.

I'm pointing out the absurdity of it. I'm pointing out that what you think the Jedi should be...doesn't really come close to matching anything that could be called "Jedi".

You're basically saying that Jedi should be the greatest of superheroes, from my pov. Supermen, in all places at once, doing great justice, helping people all the time, across borders, fighting slavery, etc. Well, I'm saying they shouldn't be, because then they wouldn't be Jedi.

Oh, it just renders Jedi completely bland, meaningless and non-unique.

The Jedi have to be viewed differently, because they are different. Yes, you have to be discriminatory toward Jedi, in that you have to see that they are not everyone else, the way Christians are not Muslims. You can't just say Muslims should be a certain way, based on your own worldview. (Baz, do not edit this) It has to be based on their worldview, not yours.

"But the Jedi aren't realz!" Yes, but they're not as blank slate as you've made them. The Jedi have been "made real", fleshed out, to a significant extent. They have been defined to some extent, and I think a lot of what you put forward simply isn't consistent with that. It's not even close. In fact, I don't think your ideas have anything to do with it.

You might as well say "Batman should kill everyone he comes across". Well, that's neat, really, but that's not Batman. He generally has a no kill policy. If the character started killing everyone he came across, he would cease to be Batman, and would become unrecognizable.

If the Jedi were the way you thought they should be, they wouldn't be Jedi, imo. They would be unrecognizable, and their unique nature would be lost to the most generic ideas found in fiction.

It's supposed to be in some way related to the Jedi point of view, which yours isn't, imo.

But thanks for the confirmation.

No, it's not, and it's utterly ignorant for you to say that. There's a lot more that has been established as absolutely intrinsic to their culture, across the eras.

You want to know what's wrong with your approach? It shows no respect, no regard, whatsoever, for the Jedi as unique creations, as a unique culture, like Christianity, Islam, etc. No, you completely ignore their own identity and uniqueness and try to smash them into your own little box, completely erasing any sense of Jedi-ness.


So, as for what I think Jedi should be, I think they shouldn't be as you would want them to be, because then they wouldn't be Jedi at all.

 

CT-867-5309

Can you spell it out to me? And please read my latest post to darth-sinister, I gave more examples of what I'm talking about.

No, not superpowers.

Yes, Jedi can do some things that others can't, but just treat it like any other gift that some people can do better than others.

No, it's flexible and open-minded.

Look at how the Jedi behaved in the OT, in Bantam, in TOTJ, in the NJO, in DNT/LOTF/FOTJ, in the PT, in Knight Errant, in Dawn of the Jedi, in Legacy, in the KOTOR comics, etc. The constant is that they are supposed to be good people trained in the Force. So don't force them to be more specific than that, let them choose their path.

We are talking about the essence of the Jedi. Whether the Jedi in the movies would have been better off serving all the people first, or the Republic first. That's an essential question, especially in the PT, and seems to be resolved in hindsight by the OT. It's absolutely a movies topic. It started in the other thread about the nature of the Republic government, became too big of a tangent, so it became its own thread, with the mods' blessing.

So you're not misunderstanding, at the risk of a brief tangent, how would you describe my views on those 4 things, then?

I'm consistent with my values and ideals. Why is that bad? I take that as a compliment.

I actually don't watch Star Trek. I watched the whale movie once, and I think I saw half of the new Star Trek sequel (the second one with Khan/Cumberbatch). That's it. I'm not a Trekkie. I kind of chuckle to myself when people think I'm borrowing too much from Trek, since I've never really watched it.

Though I fail to see what's wrong with any of this?

I don't bring up the post-scarcity thing in everything, I think I just recently named it for the first time in the Literature forum, and for the first time explicitly laid out my hopes for it in the Senate forum just a few months ago.

But regardless... why is having consistent values and ideals a bad thing?

The Force is specific to the Jedi.

?

You mean good people?

Of course I think people who are meant to be good people should be my idea of good people.

There's no lack of awareness.

No, I'm saying a Jedi should be free to follow their calling. Not that every Jedi in the galaxy needs to work on slavery and nothing else.

I'm not being dishonest. And yes, I know that.

That doesn't change what I said. It can be a golden age of peace, and there can still be significant problems with the Republic and Jedi. Both old canon (Darth Plagueis, Cloak of Deception, etc.) and new canon (the Obi-wan and Anakin comic) get into this. Not all people are singing kumbaya.

They are in a thread about people's opinions. I'm not the only one to post my opinions in this thread.

I've argued how you can't serve all people by putting the Republic first, and being limited to their jurisdiction, primarily focusing on examples from the movies like slavery and the Clone Wars, as well as how Luke is different from the PT Jedi by the end of ROTJ.

I'm not the only person who thinks this way, see others who posted in this thread. It's also describing what I thought the Jedi were back when I had only seen the OT.

No, I'm saying they should be ordinary people. See the first post in this thread for a description. You can have Jedi painters, Jedi teachers, Jedi scientists, Jedi pilots, etc. Free to follow their calling, and respond even if they don't have jurisdiction. Be more like civil rights protesters than policemen.

No, it allows Jedi to be diverse.

Also, have you read the Dark Nest trilogy, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Jedi, and the Legacy comics? "Should the Jedi serve the government or the Force?" is a major, underlying plot point and internal debate among the Jedi throughout. Yes, it might not be canon anymore, but it shows for years how there were Jedi characters arguing for what I'm arguing for from their Jedi point of view... or living how I'm describing they should live.

The only thing foundational to the Jedi are that they are supposed to be good people trained in the Force.

Yes, thank you.

And when I watched the OT, and heard the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic... that didn't make me think they only served the Old Republic government. Just that they roamed the Old Republic, and often cooperated with it.

Palpatine was able to manipulate the Jedi beyond what they admitted was their usual role. As Mace Windu says, they're "keepers of the peace, not soldiers" and yet they soon agree to become soldiers and generals, and that's what does many of them in with Order 66.

And if we're using the example of the Jedi as a religion (which is also its own debate)... not all Christians in the middle ages were called to be Monks or Knights Templar. In the same way, not all Jedi need to be agents of the government, or cut off in their own mini-society.

 

Oh, in the OT I imagined the Jedi would go on many missions for the Old Republic too. But that they could say no (Owen implying Anakin could have turned down joining Obi-wan on his "idealistic crusade" and not gotten involved), and do others things too if they wanted. I just didn't think they'd be like the Republic's CIA/NavySEALS/Ambassadors/Generals all rolled together into one. Though I also thought, even in TPM, that the Republic must have its own army.

And since neither the OT or even TPM mention the no marriage/family rules, and nothing in the OT makes it seem unusual that Luke would be the son of a Jedi, that was definitely out of left-field for me in AOTC.

Jedi can still be organized, have meetings and councils, try and set common training standards. But like in Harry Potter, you didn't NEED to go to Hogwarts to become a Wizard in the UK, you could be homeschooled and still be a Wizard (or go to another school). I thought the Jedi would be similar (though I hadn't read Harry Potter yet, that's the feeling I had, so you get the idea). More decentralized, less top-down bureaucracy.

And yes, that's what I mean... if Jedi is a religion, just like not all Christians need to be monks or religious knights, neither do all Jedi. Or that's what I used to assume, anyways. Though my point of view did happen occasionally in the old EU: Luke was married, his students were adults and children who had normal childhoods and families, the Jedi depicted in TOTJ thousands of years before the movies were pretty similar, etc.

I don't want to derail the topic, but I disagree on the Jedi falling into Palpatine's trap. We always have a choice. Even the Jedi didn't believe Dooku to be evil at first, even when he was the clear Separatist leader at the beginning of AOTC, yet they were still taking the Republic's side and never really seemed to consider the other side's point of view to act as more effective negotiators.

 

And that would make so much more sense, since it's kind of like Anakin dating one of his supervisors. Anakin Skywalker was the GFFA's Monica Lewinsky!

 

In my honest opinion, I don't honestly think its remotely possible for the Jedi to represent "all people" because of the vast scale and cultural differences of the Galaxy. We already know there are many worlds and governments that outright go against the core tenants of the Jedi Order (Nar Shadda and Nal Hutta and the multitude of Crime Ridden Worlds, Dathomir before its annihilation and other worlds aligned and worshiping the Dark Side of the Force, etc.) and yet the people who live there rely on those governments to live a stable ordinary life, unreliable as they are. The Galactic Republic was formed to create a Galaxy-wide institution that symbiotically linked its core values and tenants with that of the Jedi Order to bring peace, order, stability, and the ability to live as free individuals with the right to self-determine their destiny. The Republic, simply put, was created to be a candle of democracy and hope in a chaotic galaxy. The Jedi's service to the Republic was the entire reason of their existence, because the Republic's initial goals and the Jedi's were one in the same, The Republic having the Legal Right and representing the voices and will of the people, and the Jedi Order having the specially invested trust to carry out the mandate and edicts of the Senate to safeguard the rights of the people who live within the Republic, while the Republic used diplomacy (either through its ambassadors or the Jedi Order) to convince independent worlds to join the Republic in order to enjoy the same level of comfort and stability.

In order to accomplish something as representing the whole of the Galaxy, the Jedi would have to coerce systems that might not have the same values as the Jedi Order into joining the Republic, throwing away generations of tradition and law for a system alien to them and colonizing them into the Republic... which as we know in the real world had disastrous consequences, just ask the former British Empire and its former dominions how that turned out. Suddenly, the Jedi are now relying far more on their martial prowess and abilities instead of their abilities as negotiators because lets be realistic here... can you imagine a Jedi convincing the Hutts to lay down their arms and join the Republic to ensure their citizens would live the kind of lives the Jedi Order wishes its people had? Forgive me when I say... I'm not too convinced they can, and that would mean War... leading to the same moral ambiguity that entrapped the Jedi in the Clone Wars, where an independent force that while ostensibly answers to the Senate has enough leeway and independence to act on its own accord and brought the Republic into War.

In short, while it is a noble (depending on your point of view) dream to envision the Jedi as being able to enact vigilante justice and be citizens of the Galaxy first, defenders of the peace second like Superheroes... this is just wishful thinking.

Now this isn't mutually exclusive to the idea that the Jedi Order could've reformed itself to ensure its members were far more adjusted and intune to the people of the Galaxy by allowing them to raise families and learn through experience how to control their emotions through greater contact with people instead of mostly being in the confines of the Jedi Temple amongst like-minded individuals and life in the Temple be treated as a option.

 

Thank you for your post!

Yes, due just to sheer numbers and the vastness of the galaxy, it's impossible for the Jedi to be everywhere serving everyone at the same time. But if they're in the situation where their affiliation with the Republic is preventing them from acting out of jurisdiction, or if the Republic asks them to do something against their morals, then the Jedi should be allowed to act independently of the Republic. That's why I said I think it would probably be better for the Jedi to not automatically be the Republic's justice department. I definitely don't think the Jedi coercing others to join the Republic would be a good idea. Does that make sense? And I'm glad we agree on Jedi being more "one with the people" and allowed to have families.

 

I'm gonna respond according to my own health.

Vigilantism, the lack of respect for borders and inter-galactic law, putting one's own convictions over all other concerns...they are all traits of the Overman, who is beyond man made borders, beyond man made law, beyond anyone else's thoughts on what they should do. The Overman is above those things, and takes things into his own hands.

You can deny this is what you're describing, but it's dangerously close to it, and you don't realize it.

I've seen you say things just like this when arguing that the US should invade yet another country for the good of the people or whatever. After Iraq, it looks ridiculous. The US should end dictatorships, end oppression and bring freedom, and all that nonsense. This is also how you describe the Jedi, as bringing freedom.

Indeed! Look at them in all those things, it was more than just "good people trained in the Force".

Dark side = bad. Don't use it.

Anger, fear, hatred = lead to the dark side.

Calm = good side

Compassion = good

See, it takes half a second to show how you've obviously missed out on crucial details.

There's more, too. Some constants are debatable, some are not.

Despite your arguing against Jedi austerity....I don't see any Jedi, in any era, rolling in cash, or just being all about material possessions.

Materialism = bad. Greed = bad.

I don't see any Jedi hedonists. I don't see any of what wocky would call "sex persons", nor do I see Jedi praising the use of narcotics (I can remember one Jedi spice addict from the NJO, but he was an exception, and it was not considered a good thing).

And on and on. You didn't mention any of this, you just said "good person trained in the Force".

You'll chalk up everything I described above as traits of this "good person", because of course you would.

This is just mind exploding, I can't even deal with it. It's the reason we're not understanding each other here.

I've already explained it several times. If you can't see the problem of not putting your own bias aside when looking at a different culture, I don't know what to say.

Yeah, I know.

Oh, yeah, adding the Force just really makes it specific to Jedi. I mean, it's not like any other culture uses the Force, or in different ways.

This is really mind blowing. In a response to "what Jedi should be", all you have to say is "good people".

You've really captured what Jedi should be, you really have a deep understanding.

Q: What should Jedi be?
A: Good people.

Oh, okay. Nothing more than that, then.

And you wonder why I call you generic and vague?

There's more to Jedi than just wielding the Force and being this ridiculously vague "good person".

I guess Luke's calling has never been to free the slaves on the planet he grew up on. He's worse than Qui-Gon and the PT Jedi, he lived there, and he doesn't have to pay mind to any jurisdiction, and yet he still does nothing. He's even willing to bargain with a slavemaster and leave, just like Qui-Gon! Luke wasn't there to free slaves, just like Qui-Gon!

Bad Jedi. Sad!

Oh, okay, engage in pedantry and ignore approximately 900 years of the Republic's existence, in favor of the troubles. You're just being so honest and fair right now.

"Not all people". Thanks for the twitter hashtag.

There's a difference between your personal beliefs and opinions on what the Jedi should be.

Or, at least their should be.

Just like there's a difference between my personal beliefs and what Christians should be.

Jedi are Jedi, first, second, third, last and always. They are all Jedi, all the time, always.

Science, piloting, education, medicine, etc...these are just things they learn, but they are always Jedi. They are always Jedi before scientist or doctor.

A Jedi pilot is just a Jedi who learned how to fly. Jedi is their entire identity. They live, eat, sleep, and breathe Jedi, as they should. There are very few examples of "part time Jedi", and the ones that exist are obnoxious and obviously flawed.

No, it's not a job, it's a way of life, it's their entire being. Jedi don't have jobs. Their "job" is to be a Jedi at all times.

This is where I have to question your reading comprehension, if you thought "good people trained in the Force" was the only foundation.

And, of course, DNT, LOTF, and FOTJ were all horrible, and portrayed the Jedi horribly, but even in those series there was more to the foundation than just "good people trained in the Force."

 

CT-867-5309

I've said it's justified in extreme cases... such as in the extreme case of Luke, Obi-wan, Yoda, Kanan, Ezra rebelling against the Empire.

I said I supported humanitarian interventions in Syria and Libya. Not invading. And not like Iraq. But there's for a whole other subforum.

Yes. And look at my examples. The Jedi were very different in the OT, in Bantam, in TOTJ, in the NJO, in DNT/LOTF/FOTJ, in the PT, in Knight Errant, in Dawn of the Jedi, in Legacy, in the KOTOR comics, etc.

I'm not sure why this is so mind-exploding and dramatic for you.

I do put aside my own bias when looking at another culture. But when I'm talking about how I think things should be, of course I'm going to argue things from my perspective. I'm not sure what's so mind-blowing about that?

I'd like to see more flexibility, diversity, and open-mindedness among the Jedi.

Like how they are in Dawn of the Jedi, with the different temples, combined with how Kerra Holt and Zayne Carrick act in Knight Errant and the KOTOR comics as wandering do-gooders, along with Jedi who decide to join movements they believe to be right like Luke/Kanan/Ezra against the Empire, as well as Luke's Jedi and TOTJ Jedi that can marry and have families and normal childhoods, and how Kol Skywalker emphasizes serving the living Force first while being affiliated with the Galactic Alliance.

Not one kind of Jedi. Multiple kinds of Jedi. A more colorful Jedi. Jedi should be a broader category.

There's nothing unfair or dishonest about what I'm saying, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying that I am. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not saying the Republic was a dystopia, as bad as the Empire. I'm just saying it definitely wasn't a utopia.

They should put following the Force, serving the common good of all people, first, of course... that's what I'm arguing. But you can do that in many different ways, just like how each human is unique. It's your opinion that they are flawed and obnoxious, and we can agree to disagree. The galaxy would be better (and stories more interesting) if you had Jedi of all kinds.

My point is that many Jedi argued, from their Jedi point of views, why they should serve the Force first and not the government first. That this isn't a totally alien idea.

 

"Jedi with jobs" was a pretty common theme in the early EU - before the PT:

Ambush at Corellia: Mon Mothma:

"I believe, and believe strongly, that the Republic needs Jedi that get their hands dirty, that are part of the Republic's daily life. Jedi that live in ivory towers might be more dangerous than no Jedi at all. You need look no further than our very recent history to see that it has been the Dark Jedi that have sought isolation. To be a Jedi of the Light, a Jedi must be one with the people. There must be a Jedi on every planet, a Jedi in every city- not a few planets full of Jedi and nothing else. There must be Jedi doing what ordinary folk do. Jedi who are ordinary folk. There must be Jedi doctors and judges and soldiers and pilots-- and politicians."



And in Black Fleet Crisis books, Luke emphasises that Jedi generally don't take oaths of allegiance to the New Republic, and aren't in its chain of command:

​

“I’m trying to understand,” Akanah said. “I want to know what your Jedi mean to the New Republic, and what the New Republic means to you. Are you training the Jedi Knights to be Coruscant’s warrior elite? What are you willing to do when the commander-in-chief calls on you?”​

“That isn’t the way it works,” Luke said. “Leia doesn’t give orders to the Jedi. She can ask us for help—one of us or all of us—but we can refuse. And sometimes do.”​

“But the Republic supports your academy. You had a military spacecraft in your hangar. Can you afford to offend them?”​

“The Jedi aren’t mercenaries,” Luke said, an edge in his voice. “When we fight, it’s an individual choice—and it’s in defense of the principles of our creed. Coruscant supports the academy because the memory of the Jedi is a powerful force for stability. Our presence is what they want most.”​

“That’s the part of the tradition that concerns me,” said Akanah. “The guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for a thousand generations, or so the legend has it. But if you cannot have both peace and justice, which will you choose?”​

“Which would you have me choose?”​

"I would choose for you to keep your great gifts beyond the reach of politicians and generals,” she said. “For you to owe them no debts, and take on no causes—” ​

“I’ve been careful to protect our independence,” said Luke. “Despite appearances.”​

“You aren’t sworn to uphold the government on Coruscant? You’ve taken no oaths of allegiance?”​

“No. Only those few who’ve chosen to serve in the Fleet, or the ministries. It’s not forbidden. But it’s not common. The Jedi aren’t the Republican Guard. And never will be.”​