Should the OT scores be re-recorded?

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by Fat_Fett, Jun 1, 2002.

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  1. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    heartily agreed!

    and ken, i have always felt that about Vader, that he is outside the organized structure, and in a way that is why everyone fears him so. He is powerful enough to make changes to the structure (a la piet) and too powerful to challenge...or even get rid of. Add that to a military mind which is programmed to like order and structure, and you have great fear!

    He is sort of like the guys in suits in action movies who can come into any inviestigation and just take over, but no one knows really what branch they work for...
  2. Imrahil2001 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Strilo said:

    I see it more as John Williams usually overuses the new theme he comes up with for a given film. The Force theme, the Imperial March, Yoda's theme... all overused in the film they were written for. I tend to prefer the more subtle uses and the non thematic material he scores with after the novelty of these new themes wears off.

    So does Wagner "overuse" his themes? It's called leitmotif. It's supposed to be there. Theme and variations. It's what makes Star Wars itself so great, so unified, so thematically pure, and what makes Jedi such a bumbling mess of dissonance.

    Ims

    Edits: Fixing markup.
  3. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I never liked Wagner. And in ways, ROTJ is a superior score to ANH.

  4. Juan_Tufte Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    Let's stay on topic here. Thanks.
  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Off topic post there JUAN. This is talking about re-recording the score AS IS... not changing it.

  6. thebadge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2002
    star 4
    Adding the Imperial March to ANH makes sense to me. If its in AOTC already (Ep II), and its gonna be in (Ep III)which I presume is a pretty safe assumption. Then to me at least you have to have it in ANH (Ep IV). If anything its during ANH that the Senate is finally dissolved by the Emperor and the Empire offically established. SO maybe it shouldn't be in Eps II and III but it should be in IV.

    thebadge
  7. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
    So does Wagner "overuse" his themes? It's called leitmotif. It's supposed to be there. Theme and variations. It's what makes Star Wars itself so great, so unified, so thematically pure, and what makes Jedi such a bumbling mess of dissonance

    Yes, but to compare Wagner and JW is an error. The subtlety with which Wagner transitions themes is vastly different from thematic changes that are made by JW. Not to say one is better than the other...it is just that they are doing greatly different degrees of variation.

    If you listen to the types of Variations that JW uses in Empire, for example, the themes are clearly distict but hint at connections with other themes. Even themes with stronger connections, like Leia's theme from ANH and the love theme from ESB, the similarities are structural...one does not ever grow from another. When you see Wagner connect two themes, he undergoes musical transitions, very slow and subtle changes, until you are very far from where you started (an example of this is in Reingold, between acts, when you hear the gold theme slowly turn into the greed theme, and that in turn slowly turns into the Valhala theme...thus, the gold is how Valhala was built, and you aurally see the gold becoming Valhala). This is the soul of Wagnerian Leitmotiv.

    In that regard, JW doesn't really use themes as Leitmotif, but more like the theme and variation pieces of old. He will create a theme, and you will hear it presented with different colors, in different ranges, perhaps interupted, etc. But the melodies never become other melodies.

    I would have to agree with Stri about ROTJ being a branch out. In ESB, you hear some great presentations of the themes, but there was a ton of space for other, more creative action music to be used instead of just versions of the themes (ie, running through the halls of bespin, etc). In ROTJ, you hear more original, non thematic cues (into the trap, Dark side beckons, Return of the Jedi, etc), and they work to really broaden the range and depth of the overall score.



    wow, and if you read all that, thank you ;)
  8. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    GREAT post Tenor! That was really fun to read and informative.

    Anyway, yeah I like the diverse nature of ROTJ and how he was able to weave themes together to with new material to create some amazing moments. The Death of Yoda is one of these. As a matter of fact, a lot of my favourite tracks from Star Wars are from ROTJ. Which is WHY I am dying for a high quality re-recording of them.

  9. TenorAprentice Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 4
  10. Mr_Sarcasm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2003
    star 1
    You know, one of the many things that has irked me about how the OT score was produced was that it just isn't strong enough in some places (this is mostly true of ANH and ROTJ - most of ESB is utterly fantastic). Not only is the sound-quality bad in some areas, but even some of the performances seem to be sub-par.

    My prime example would be near the end of ROTJ, when Vader picks up the Emperor and throws him down the shaft (in the music, it is right after the tension has been building for sometime with the strings vibrating in an ascending pattern and the trumpets and horns plodding up the musical scale). Now at this point, a noble and fan-faric restatement of the Force Theme is scored, and done so fittingly since this is the pinnacle of the whole Saga. My problem with this part is that it just isn't powerful enough - the notes in the force theme seem mostly slurred together when played by the horns and trumpets (as opposed to how i'm sure they were written --> i.e. very staccato!), and the fact that the sound is almost muted at this point during what is perhaps the most moving scene of the whole saga is just a real let down. Check it out for yourself and see what i'm talking about.

    Everytime I hear this part, I always think to myself "That could have been so much more spectacular!" And this is one of the reasons why I support a re-recording of the OT - IF it only improves upon the already spectacular scores.
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yet another strong case for re-recording the scores for the OT. Sound quality is only one part of it I guess... :)

    Good post!

  12. obiwankepaulie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2002
    I am partial to the scores the way they were originally recorded, for both personal memory and historical reasons.

    However, if Williams were to re-record the entire scores for the original trilogy, and they were made available in a special format of 5.1 / 6.1 DVD-Audio or SACD, I would purchase -- especially if he is conducting.

    I like the sound of the original recordings, limited technology warts and all. Even so,
    I would enjoy both ny new recording and my old one. Just because something new exists doesn't mean something old goes out of style.

    PK
  13. Blast Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 3
    This weekend while listening to RotJ on a car ride home I noticed how terrible the sound quality was,how muffled it was.I noticed that it wasnt top notch but I never knew it was this bad. Even though they really dont need it I would also like to see ANH and ESB re-recorded.
  14. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    For the archival versions of the Star Wars Saga (or whatever it's going to be called), Williams should re-record all six films, due to the reused score in the prequels, the Spacial Edition's, and from the Original Trilogy as well.

    It would be nice closer for Williams in completing his life work.
  15. skyy38 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2003
    star 2
    This question came up in my head when I noticed after watching ANH recently that the opening fanfares (20th Century Fox, Star Wars main theme) sound very scratchy>>>>>>>

    That particular recording of the Fox Fanfare Theme was recorded back in the '50's.
    For ESB John Williams redid it with the London Symphony Orchestra.

    Big NO on redoing ANY part of the original score to E4.Just leave it alone.This re-do business will eventually drive Lucas(and the rest of us) nuts.
    As for re-recording that's debatable-I find no problems with either the Special Edition on tape nor the Special Edition Soundtrack.
    I think part of what makes the original soundtrack special is that it's a product of it's times,done with the tools of it's time.
    There's no law against "cleaning anything up"
    per se,but lets limit it to just that.

    I mean I wouldn't want to be the one who put a toothy grin on the Mona Lisa,if you know what I mean....
  16. batvader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    No.

    I only think that there should be some remastering for the Jedi album. I would buy it again if the new version had superior quality. The second CD of the RCA release has crap sound quality.
  17. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    You know ... I'm kind of found of the crapy sound in the Jedi album. Yet, of course, I would get the newly-recorded score, and would be very happy about getting it if the recording was on par with the Varese Records re-recording of the Herrmann scores.

  18. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    Up. There's some good discussion here. With the upcoming dvd release, there should be more...
  19. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Hm, has there been talk about some new Star Wars albums?
  20. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Strilo: My ROTJ: SE TDSB doesn't have a hissing sound, at least, not one I can hear..it's beautiful if you turn the bass off..

    The key part of this sentence is "not one I can hear." It would appear that you are not a critical listener of recordings or that you merely listen to things on low end systems or always have other things going on in the background when listening to music.

    If you put on a $200 pair of headphones and do not hear tape noise on ROTJ then your ears are either not functioning properly or are not capable of the typical range of human hearing. The noise on all three OT soundtracks is very real, most of all on Return of the Jedi.

    There is nothing about the horribly muffled, muddy and flat recording of the ROTJ score that I would consider beautiful.
  21. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    David Prowse (Darth Vader) has confirmed that the Star Wars Trilogy is being tweaked for the DVD release.

    So, like...music...new recording...stuff...discuss.
  22. CopernicusDent Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2001
    star 2
    Aren't the Star Wars DVD's done?
  23. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
  24. BobaFrank Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2001
    star 5
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! The OT soundtracks are established lexicons in the American movie music industry. The PT soundtracks are not although they are great, but not as good as the OT and should not be changed.
  25. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    The OT soundtracks are established lexicons in the American movie music industry.

    Why do you think re-recording would topple the soundtracks from their lexical pedestal?
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