PT Should the parts of Bail in RotS have just been rewritten for Padme?

I didn't want to start a new thread. Did a search and found this:
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/why-isnt-padme-as-strong-willed-in-rots.50028060/

Was all ready to post in that thread, when the last post ended with it being locked. Slicer87 had one of the best posts in there. The rest hurt to read.

I haven't really mapped this out, but should Padme just have essentially had Bail Organa's parts in RotS? I understand why the secret rebellion like meetings were not used (too many complaints about politics in SW already).

So:
1. Padme is diagnosed with an incurable affliction very early in the film. This is what sets Anakin into looking for the fountain of youth. They discover the equivalent to carcinogens in her Naboo Senator's suite. Palpatine's evil gift to her, as it was his former Senate suite. Only a conspiracy nut would think he planted it. These things just happen.

2. Instead of just waiting for Anakin to come back when she hears that he was at the Jedi Temple in flames, she gets in her "space car" to check out what is going on and that's where she takes Bail's scene of witnessing the Clones kill Padawan Baby Lucas. Perhaps she even spots Anakin in the Temple, but is confused about what she is seeing from so far out coupled with the rush to flee.

3. She confronts Anakin about what she has seen when he pulls up to her balcony and challenges him on it.

4. Not fully trusting Anakin for the first time in her life, she finds Yoda and OB1. OB1 heads to Mustafar, Yoda heads for Palpatine and Padme heads for the Senate leaders she trusts (Bail, Mothma, etc). She first argues that she should go to Anakin on Mutafar, but they convince her it is more important that she try to persuade the Senate to declare the new Empire illegal as the powers were never granted to Palpatine by the Senate. OB1 tells her he is going there to talk to Anakin as a friend, not as an adversary. To pull him back to the Jedi ways.

5. The Yoda-Sidious duel / OB1-Anakin confrontation start up as Padme rallies the Senate "Rebellion". Yoda seems to have the upper hand. OB1 and Anakin are still talking and Anakin still seems vulnerable to coming back to the Jedi. Then the tone changes. Sidious gains the upperhand, Anakin and OB1's talk turns into a duel. Padme and friends call for an emergency meeting at the Senate, but when they arrive, nobody is allowed in. The Senate has been closed down due to the ongoing Jedi mutiny. They are told Coruscant is under Martial Law and they should go inside and not come out until the danger (the Jedi) have been confirmed killed/captured in totality. Yoda is actually hanging outside a building (like Luke in ESTB) and he calls to Padme. Padme rescues Yoda (instead of Bail).

6. The head to Mustafar. As their ship enters the atmosphere, Anakin senses her presence. He notices the ship in the skies and becomes conflicted, giving OB1 the kill shot he needs.

7. She lands and sees Anakin burning and passed out .... assumed dead. She now feels betrayed by OB1 as well. She parts ways and goes to the only person she still trusts ... Bail Organa. Alderaan is a peaceful planet and she needs medical attention for her affliction. During her first medical visit on Alderaan, she finds out she is pregnant. At that point, she decides she will stay hidden on Alderaan with her family. Bail convinces her that there is a very strong chance that the boy (Luke) could grow up the spitting image of his father and set off alarms. Anakin was the hero of the Clone Wars afterall. EVERYBODY in the galaxy knows his face. So she reluctantly gives him to the only person she trusts, but at the same time nobody in her circles would know - Owen and Beru.

She is of course incredibly depressed. The father of her children is dead at the hand's of the Jedi she trusted. It appears he might have been one of "the bad guys". She has to part with her son. The Republic has fallen and she will most likely die when her daughter is still a baby/toddler.

Palpatine tells Vader Padme was last spotted with Yoda on Coruscant. Just like Kylo Ren to Snoke, Vader tells Palpatine "she means nothing to me. I told her the truth of the Jedi and she chose the Jedi over Anakin (referring in third person as if Anakin is somebody else)." When Vader leaves Palpatine, he kills a few imperials in anger. He no longer cares about the fountain of youth. He now looks forward to death. He will personally hunt down every last Jedi and painfully kill them. He will start with the Jedi children the weak Anakin Skywalker hid in the Jedi Temple. The movie will end with him walking into the same Jedi Council chamber, but this time force pulling a jedi saber into his hand, it ignites a pale blue with a deep bass woosh as the scene goes black ... except for the saber. The darker the scene becomes, the brighter and more red it bleeds until it is the only thing left on the screen before the credits roll.

Solved
A. No magic death dream about Padme
B. Padme, as a main character, has a bigger role than a secondary character, Bail. She's still part of the story and not an ornament.
C. Leia recalls her mother as a baby/toddler
D. Anakin is not the wife beater
E. Anakin kills the Jedi kids as full on "Death Wish" Vader, not the "oh, I must kill them to save Padme" dude. And he is still not ready for a full fledged Jedi, so Jedi kids make for a nice warm up in his new body.
F. Did I mention Padme actually has a role again
G. Anakin and Sidious are COMPLETELY unaware of the twins. it might even be cool if Anakin was named Anakin Starkiller and Skywalker is used as the more cheery version for Luke as well as for in cognito purposes.
H. Padme doesn't die of a broken heart. Depressed and sad, but not on the delivery table.

 

Naw.

 

No, not even that is accurate.

 

For a bit more content, though honestly I find these fan rewrites to be more often-than-not endlessly tiring and more effort than they're worth to critique:

You've basically done nothing but rewrite the plot to remove the usual handful of predictable prequel critic hang-ups, in the process removing a lot of the thematic power of the story, like the way Padme's inevitable death is tied in with the idea of childbirth; the way Anakin's desire for power becomes an end unto itself leading to his violently turning against the love his life; the way this blind lust for power leads to his undoing on the lava bank (instead you quite bafflingly have Anakin's conflicted feelings for Padme leading to his undoing, which I assume you think is wonderful situational irony but is in reality simply thematically incoherent); the way Padme's death illustrates the manner in which Anakin focused on possessing her physically rather than caring about her feelings, desires, and ideals; the way Anakin's slaughter of the innocents comes off as a chilling and unexpected shock perpetrated by a character we still largely conceptualize as good, rather than a culminating act committed by a character who we already fully accept as being an entirely separate and evil entity. I could go on probably.

I mean it's just a tragic mess. You're no George Lucas, you know.

 

A. Magic? That's the Force not magic.

B. If you think Padme is an "ornament" then I completely totally utterly disagree.

C. Leia does recall Padme so that is already.

D. Anakin isn't a "wife beater" presumably you mean the choking scene? That is after he assumes the mantle of Darth Vader and the Anakin she knows is gone. Wife beater is a very broad brush for his assault and one I never had heard in association with that event before.

E. That isn't the story and "Death Wish" Vader is not who he is yet because of Padme. Then he descends and wants more than just her. By the Mustafar scene he then starts to see her as his possession like a Sith would.

F. She has a primal important role as it is.

G. What are you talking about?

H. We don't know exactly why she died. The droid said she lost the will to live.

What's so odd to me is all the people I meet who want to "rewrite" the prequels but what they end up doing is keeping it 90-95% or more the same and then just want to tweak a few things here or there and as you point out want to remove the actual mythological and thematic power of the story and make it into more of a standard SF tale which seems to be how they also see the OT.

Then they want to get rid of Anakin being "creepy" and "stalky" (when he isn't either in the first place). One of the other key points is that they find Anakin's turn "too fast" and have a hard time understanding it but then they suggest "fixes" that actually take it from the well thought out and structured progression both in ROTS and the PT overall into something that really is too fast and more inconsequential surface reasons as opposed to the actual interior character progression in the movies as they are.

 

No.

 

There are quite a few people that felt Padme's role in RotS was greatly diminished compared to TPM and AotC. Essentially, her normal politically related parts seemed to be handed over to Bail. A very simple fix.

Not sure what the problem is with tweaking v. rewrites. So either rewrite it from scratch or just accept it completely without any opinion other than it is perfect? Yeah. There are more options. Infinitely.

Anakin's dream was a self-fulfilling prophesy, not a force premonition.

What's not to get about Vader's knowledge of the offspring. It is the difference between being aware she was pregnant and thinking they all died v. not even knowing she was pregnant.

You've never heard of wife beater Anakin? How can you not immediately associate that with his actions with Padme. ANY excuse immediately mimics the words coming out of the wife beater talking to the recently called cops. "Well, sir. She wasn't doing what I told her and now I find out she's lied to me. She needed to be taught a lesson." It wasn't similar to wife beating. IT WAS wife beating.

As far as Anakin creepy, didn't even really go into that, so that's on you.

Claiming Leia does remember Padme is a horrible defense (which is all that is going on).

How about offering something up? There's too much of trying to shut something down in PT threads as opposed to engaging.

If you think Padme's role in RotS was perfect, then you can say that nothing could be changed. If not, then why make that point?

This isn't about gender. This is about the role of one of the major characters. She had pivotal roles with lots of screen time in TPM and AotC. Just like Han, Luke and Leia in the OT. What did she do in RotJ that just wasn't a plot device/scenery for Anakin? She observed in the Senate. She sat on Anakin's eggs. The majority of her scenes were her in her suite waiting for Anakin.

 

I don't really have a problem with rewrites, I think they're just a waste of time and a distraction. The prequel trilogy has been written, produced and completed. The time for rewrites was 15-20 years ago. We can't rewrite the prequel trilogy. No matter how much we'd like to, we can't change it. We can't fix it. Any of it.

I prefer to discuss what we got. That doesn't require acceptance or the opinion that it is perfect.

People can do their own rewrites if they want, I won't. I won't spent much time acknowledging or discussing rewrites by random people with no say over the actual trilogy itself.

I did like some of your ideas. 1, 2, B, C, F, G and H. They're just ideas, though. Way too late for them.

4 is a mess, 6 is absolutely no good, and E doesn't work either.


Still, I had a nice little moment thinking of an ROTS that involves Padme doing something and surviving long enough for Leia to remember her. That's not the ROTS we got, though.

 

You know post like this infuriate me to no end.... I feel that thanks to post like this its why we have such mockery of herself in TCW and to a lesser extent in DOTF. The thing that I wish people would understand is that Padmè is more "Feminine" than Leia is; an archetype to the Devine Feminine of sorts with in SW. Because of this she breathes within the realms of subtlety. Instead of seeing her through the lenses of Leia and almost every other females in SW, think the Stark women, Arwen, Mary Welland, Medieval Myth and history.

Secondly, Padmè's arc is not an uplifting one. By the time ROTS comes around, she has made his bed and she has to lay in it..

Lastly its almost as if we see her through Anakin's eyes rather than own in ROTS.. so no not have her replace w/ Bail but see her POV more.
Also, just because Leia has more screen time doesn't mean her arc is written well.

 

Plot device?

It's called story and character. She is absolutely pivotal in ROTS. If someone wants to complain about something then do so about Leia and Han in ROTJ. The most important thing they do in the entire OT concerning Luke's story is to get captured by Vader.

 

Han and Leia are pivotal during the entire OT. Right up to the end where they are the key players in destroying the shield on Endor. Pretty important.

I won't touch the "feminine" comment. Not on this forum. I didn't compare her to Leia. I compared her to Han, Luke, Leia.

Her role wasn't to be a "pillar of support of her husband". It was as a politician during the collapse of the Republic. Tons of possibilities for her character outside of waiting around for Anakin. She might as well have been sick in bed for most of the movie.

 

She's both, actually. But Anakin's the main character. It's his arc that the movie needs to focus on.

She expresses her discontent with the growing corruption in the Republic and is present with Bail in the Senate after Palpatine's declaration of the Empire to deliver one of the most memorable and important political lines in the series. What's your objection exactly? Did you actually want more political scenes? And by the way, those weren't cut because they were political. They were cut because they interfered too much with the flow of the primary narrative, which, again, belongs to Anakin. I'm not sure how getting rid of Bail solves this issue for you.

Padme also makes the strongest decision in the movie when she chooses to walk away from Anakin despite still loving him and believing in the good in him.

e: And Leia isn't really an active participant at all in TESB. For the vast majority of the movie all she does is get carted around by Han in the Falcon, and then later on she gets put in captivity so Lando can rescue her. The first time she does anything active (by your standards) is at the end when she gets a few blaster shots off and then tells Lando to go back for Luke. I don't think Leia was used poorly at all in TESB but if you want to compare....not that different than Padme in ROTS.

 

In those terms yes but compare that to Padme and Obi-Wan's importance to Anakin's story.

Luke's story is about his relation to the PT characters of Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious. Leia and Han are not really crucial to his personal Jedi path story. In that they are bit players. Their biggest impact is in ANH and that isn't due to their personal relationships because they don't have any there. They only really come together as friends at the end. The most they do is in TESB get captured and for Leia it's going back for Luke then in ROTJ it's really the sister reveal to Leia then Vader using her to anger Luke. Luke barely spends any time with them outside of events that only move the plot along but have only indirect impact on Luke as a person. Whereas with Padme and Obi-Wan it's scene after scene of their relationships that drive Anakin.

I really don't see what it is that you want. When Padme was unattached and a queen then a Senator before the wars she was doing just that. In ROTS she's a wife and expectant mother as well as a Senator but as with the entire Senate their power is all but gone since most of it has been given over to Palpatine. She can't do much of anything anymore than the Senate or the Jedi can as Palpatine has the power of the Senate and Courts.

What little she could do she did and Lucas wrote and shot those scenes that were deleted but they simply didn't play well in the movie. They simply don't go anywhere as they are so unless they were greatly expanded they really don't do much. Besides that the actual power and strength of Padme is on full display on Mustafar so what exactly the problem is I don't know. She can't overcome him physically but only appeal to him but she realizes that he is lost. I don't have any problem in her being real and human and desperately trying to save her husband. Padme is a character who has flaws. She isn't some perfect person. She's a really good person and a great woman but she has weaknesses as well. She always did as seen in both TPM and AOTC. People can be more than just one thing at the same time and that is why she's such a rich and deep character.

This is another thing. Padme does in ROTS essentially the same thing Luke does in ROTJ when he drops his lightsaber yet why does Luke get such praise and Padme scorn from some?

Surely Luke is "weak" because he doesn't fight anymore?

 

And remember in ANH, she is a plot device for Luke's journey. She holds a blaster for less than a minute total, and is inactive while Luke goes to blow up the Death Star.

ROTJ gives her a more "active roll" than ANH and ESB did in terms of action scenes, but her character barely has much dialogue compared to Luke and Han. And she's mostly just along for the ride.

Even then she's in 5 movies plus cameos in ROTS and RO while Padme has 3. And she's just as inactive in TFA, and she's more than just a cameo in that movie unlike Luke.

 

So the comparison to RotS Padme is somebody that is captured and imprisoned. Even with that comparison, Leia does more. Steals plans, gets them off ship with message, helps her rescuers escape.

We are also comparing RotS Padme's entire movie role to a couple of minutes of RotJ Luke role.

Yes. That is the point. She does very little. She waited around for Anakin. Saying it is "Anakin's" story is a cop out. Look at Bail. He did quite a bit and yet it somehow did not take away from Anakin's story. It's almost as if there was something for a non-force user to be doing in RotS.

 

What about ESB and ROTJ Leia? What's her role there? In ESB, her only really pro-active role is leading the troops on Hoth. For the rest of that film, she's stuck in the asteroids with Han, stuck in the love interest role. In ROTJ, she tries to free Han, is captured and objecitfied, before she does get to kill Jabba the Hutt. For the rest of the film,all she does is meet Wicket, get caught in a pointless love triangle, and take part int he final ground battle with everyone else. Nothing very distinguishable about her.

 

I was comparing Leia as a whole. As we know by RO, no she didn't capture the plans. She has them, gives them to R2, gets captured. And yes, she has one scene where she shoots a vent, but who has to save them after? R2. So it was really one predicament into another.

And even on ROTS, we share more about Padmes thoughts on the Republic, the future with her children, the attack of the Jedi, her husband's fall and the rise of the Empire. However brief it may be, theres actual time dedicated to sharing her thoughts. Leia beyond the snark in Episode IV and V, doesn't get that. In Episode VI, she doesn't share anything really. No thoughts on her being objectified by Jabba, very little reaction to finding out her lineage, and she gets shot and put out of commission, where Han is the one to blow up the generator.

 

Really?
Part of command of the rebel force. You actually see her leading the escape. Chased by Darth Vader, romance completed, Bespin escape, feels Luke calling out to her and facilitates his rescue.

Part of the Han rescue team. Kills Jabba. Part of the team to take down shield generator. They key player as she is the one to make friendly contact with the primitives.

Now list what Padme does in RotS (compared to herself in TPM and AotC, not to mention all other main characters of the saga).

Tells Anakin she's pregnant. Sounding board for Anakin. Sits in Senate chamber and does nothing. Runs to Anakin. Lays on a table and dies having twins.

Almost all of those are passive roles. Heck, even the pregnancy is more about Luke and Leia than Padme. And we have a role for Padme without interrupting Anakin's story one bit. It is the role given to Bail. And if you want to get technical, that role actually complicates Bail and Aldeeran as being traitors to the Empire before, during and after its inception. If Bail weren't tied up in that, he would have made a much better safehouse for Leia.

 

Padme does just those kinds of things and plenty more in TPM and AOTC because she is the leader of Naboo and later a Senator of the Republic when it means something before the Clone Wars start. You seem to want her to do that again in ROTS when the entire point is that she can't and the Senate can't, the Jedi can't. The point is that they have lost their power to Palpatine who has been taking it all.

Which is I think probably the point. Leia really could do anything against the Empire herself personally anymore than Padme could stop the Republic falling. It's far too big for just one person to do anything unless they are an Anakin or Luke who have the Force where they can change things that the normal person can't at that stage.

So the power for Padme doesn't come from politics and battle but personal adversity.

I guess you don't like Leia's part in ANH where she does by your standards next to nothing on that physical scale? She should have been Jyn then and actually capture the plans rather than being handed to her?

As good as Leia is the reality is that her part is very narrow in the OT. As a character we really don't get much in ANH. She's a good support role. Both her and Han get real character time in TESB due to their romance. This is a side-step to the major story of Luke's Jedi path and the Rebellion vs Empire. In ROTJ their roles really are almost entirely connected to the plot. Their own story is pretty much wrapped up. The only real character scene she gets is with Luke. There isn't much else.

To me that is completely missing the point. You are listing the plot points like there is no story there. This is very much the opposite of Leia in ROTJ. Leia's story in ROTJ is almost entirely plot based because she has no real place in the story of Luke outside of the sister revelation.

Compare that to Padme's direct and personal impact on Anakin not just because of plot terms but because of story and character interaction in scene after scene that gives us insights into both her character and Anakin's.

That is more impact that running around firing a blaster.

I don't know what this made up role that isn't in the movie you want is.

 

Exactly. And as a rebuttal to the other poster, Han rescues Leia off of Hoth, by literally grabbing her and carrying her down to the Falcon. Chased by Vader is barely an "active roll." Like Padme is attacked by Vader. I don't think it's "active." True, Leia does get a few rounds off, but Lando is the reason that she's able to do that.

Compare that to TPM, where Padme gets captured by Gunray's forces, and she's rescued by another feminine force, Sabe.

And as for rescuing Luke, she's the springboard for that. Luke is the one who reaches out to her, and even though she convinces Lando to go back, Lando does the actual action of saving Luke.

In ROTJ, Leia is more part of the team then ever before, but killing Jabba was a moment. Not necessarily important for the overall story. Plus R2 still needs to rescue her from the chains.

And she doesn't meditate the Rebel and Ewok alliance. Han and Luke are gonna be roasted and she kinda just sits back. Luke is the one to use 3PO as a vessel to gain the respect of the Ewoks.

Now Padme in ROTS, she does the important thing for the galaxy. Spends her last moments, WILLFULLY, giving her children a future, as her connection with Anakin and the Force takes her. Padme likely knew she was dying, and still didn't give up on her children, imprinting Luke with the idea of redemption for Vader.

Plus, who knows what her role was during the Battle of Coruscant. She couldve kicked some ass, but she's also pregnant too. It would be unwise to be carrying children Palpatine is aware of and continuously fight.

There's people who didn't like Padme in TPM and AOTC, so her being super active in ROTS would just feed another criticism. "OH WHAT A ****** MOTHER. SHE'S PUTTING HER CHILDREN AT RISK IN BATTLE!" It's a Catch 22 situation with her character. She has to die eventually. Ya can't work a way around that, and Lucas decided to keep her as a pivotal plot point, but focus Anakin's journey.

 

Already addressed that. She is in the very early stages of pregnancy instead of ready to deliver any minute. This solves two problems. Padme being as active as the last two movies and her living long enough for Leia to actually have those memories of her.

But it seems we agree she did much less in RotS than in TPM and AotC. At least we've now agreed her role was diminished in the RotS. Now we can actually discuss possibilities instead of denying what has already been accepted for years on these forums.

 

It's not different from Obi-Wans role in TPM being very very small either in the beginning. I mean, you're talking about THE Obi-Wan here. He doesn't speak that much nor as any time on his own. Compare that to Padme(who has more time than Anakin and Obi-Wan mind you. Ain't that funny? It's momma's movie now). But anyways...

No. Bail already has a minor role in the movies, so there isn't any point in making him even *smaller*. You're giving a character a little too much movement in the story when it isn't wholly needed. At this point in the story, Anakin and Obi-Wan need the focus. Padme, despite being a good character, does not carry over to the next 3 movies. This isn't to say she couldn't have used some more extra scenes(barring the rebellion part. That isn't needed in general) because I do feel more time with Padme would have created a better solidification.

 

But she's late enough in the pregnancy to give birth about 3 days into the movie.

 

Great ideas to have that Padme actually *will* die, rather than just a possibility, feeling disappointed with both Anakin & Obi-Wan (and, like from the OT, Obi-Wan really trying to turn him back and her raising Leia) and how and why she would have her connection to Bail and Owen & Beru. But I think the story did need to have Anakin and Padme face-to-face feeling alienated from and rejecting each other and I think the overall connection with the OT would be weakened by Anakin not having known he was to be a father.

 

People would probably complain about this as a plot device too, all the same.