Should The Phantom Menace have been a prologue, not Episode I?

Why did it need to be so short?

It was very long actually. Some people thought it was too long.

 

It was very long actually. Some people thought it was too long.

It starts and ends in about fifteen minutes.

 

That depends on what you call the first battle of the Clone War. If you take it from the point where Obi-wan and co. are about to be eaten and go from there, it is long, a lot longer than 15 minutes. If you take it from the point Yoda shows up, it is short. In either event, it's all one scene, with three acts.

 

Which happens almost entirely offscreen in the Saga.

(The Clone Wars, I mean)

 

Umm, one would figure there would be if we're supposed to believe they're "friends."

And are we supposed to believe they're friends?

Can't defend the fact that there is no real interaction between Yoda and Anakin, aye?

No, I'm wondering why you think there was supposed to be a relationship between them.

Let's see, the supposed Chosen One, and the head of the Council never interacts with him...

You mean aside from his "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" speech?

...bah, no need for a relationship;

Not really, no, especially since Yoda didn't want him trained.

the Jedi are just an organization in name, that doesn't mean they actually converse or anything...

Except when they do, which is frequently. What exactly were you looking for?

Just look at any dull conversation against a blue screened background,

Wait, I thought you said the Jedi don't converse. Who were holding these "dull conversations against a blue screened background," then?

it's all there. I'm sure you have the DVDs.

Yes, I do. What "dull conversations against blue-screen backgrounds" are you referring to?

Dooku doesn't make an appearance until the last part of the film,

Yeah, he was. So what's your point?

and his role was cut considerably shorter by Lucas in the editing phase.

Yeah, I guess. From what I could tell he cut out maybe one scene: the trial. However, I will say that I think he should have left that in, and cut down the Clone War battle scene.

We meet him, jump right to the duel, goes to meet Palpatine, and that's it.

Did you even see the movie? Obi Wan sees him conferring with the Separatists, then he comes in after Obi Wan is captured; he is in charge of the arena execution; he retreats into the catacombs, he escapes, then there's the duel, he goes to meet Palpatine.

The visible villain of the movie is breezed through.

Not really. We know as much about him as we need to, especially considering he's mysterious. He's not the real villain anyway. Palpatine is, just as in the previous movie.

Why did it need to be so short?

Because it's not necessary for it be longer. Frankly, I thought it was too long as it was.

Now let's see, when are characters usually introduced? At the end? (Knowing Lucas, that wouldn't be a surprise) Or at the beginning?

Wait, I thought you said he wasted 3/4ths of the movie reintroducing characters.

(Apparently for Lucas, that's a little too much to ask for, when you can just throw characters in half-way through the story for no good reason and have it defended endlessly)

I'm having trouble following you, because you keep changing what you're saying, and haven't answered my question.

Wasting 3/4 of AOTC reintroducing characters from TPM because they're so different,

And again I ask, where is this done?

It's apparent you can't dispute the claims presented; you're not even trying to make an argument.

I make an argument when you present a claim to argue against.

How?

Let's see...saying he was a bad writer and a bad director; blaming him for "ruining movies" and halting and reversing the progress movies supposedly made during the 1970s by "turning the studios into money machines"; all but squealing with glee when "More American Graffiti" flopped; constantly trying to pit him against Spielberg, while making it clear that they wanted Spielberg to come out the victor.

 

Not GL's problem. He writes em how he wants them.

Beside TPM was the best SW movie in my opinion and is without a doubt worthy of a Star Wars episode.

Definately worthy.

 

And are we supposed to believe they're friends?

It's obvious George wants us to, since they're shown hugging at the beginning of AOTC, yet we'd never actually seen them interact in TPM; AND she also insists on rescuing him, so that's probably implying friendship.

No, I'm wondering why you think there was supposed to be a relationship between them.

It would help in keeping the ensemble close and tight-knit, rather than the scattered mess we have so far.

You mean aside from his "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" speech?

Yes, aside from the interrogation they had ten years earlier.

Not really, no, especially since Yoda didn't want him trained.

So because of that, they're never going to interact? That's reaching for an explanation, especially given that Yoda is the head of the Council and Anakin is the supposed Chosen One.

Except when they do, which is frequently. What exactly were you looking for?

Something beyond basic plot exposition.

Wait, I thought you said the Jedi don't converse. Who were holding these "dull conversations against a blue screened background," then?

Yes, I do. What "dull conversations against blue-screen backgrounds" are you referring to?

The ensemble is factioned into little groups, which is what I said when I mentioned them talking through buffers. Nice try in attempting to steer the point away or blow it out of proportion. For the sake of clarity, we have Mace, Obi-wan, and Yoda conversing with dull line delivery against blue screen. They just kinda stand there, look in Yoda's general direction when he says something, and take a few steps again.

Yeah, he was. So what's your point?

Wasted character.

Yeah, I guess. From what I could tell he cut out maybe one scene: the trial. However, I will say that I think he should have left that in, and cut down the Clone War battle scene.

I agree.

Did you even see the movie? Obi Wan sees him conferring with the Separatists, then he comes in after Obi Wan is captured; he is in charge of the arena execution; he retreats into the catacombs, he escapes, then there's the duel, he goes to meet Palpatine.

And all that in thirty minutes, thank you for helping me make my point.

The visible villain of the movie is breezed through.

Not really. We know as much about him as we need to, especially considering he's mysterious. He's not the real villain anyway. Palpatine is, just as in the previous movie.

A character can be "mysterious" without being suffled off to the end with bad editing decisions.

And besides, I said Dooku was the VISIBLE VILLAIN, not the real villain.

Because it's not necessary for it be longer. Frankly, I thought it was too long as it was.

All fifteen minutes?

Wait, I thought you said he wasted 3/4ths of the movie reintroducing characters.

Yes, I did. There's a difference between REintroducing and introducing.

I'm having trouble following you, because you keep changing what you're saying, and haven't answered my question.

And what question is that? All you've done is ask questions til now.

And again I ask, where is this done?

When are we reintroduced to the returning characters in AOTC?

I make an argument when you present a claim to argue against.

Well, you've already acknowledged my claims with responses, so that makes them legitimate. Nice try though.

Let's see...saying he was a bad writer and a bad director; blaming him for "ruining movies" and halting and reversing the progress movies supposedly made du

 

It's obvious George wants us to, since they're shown hugging at the beginning of AOTC,

Hugging? It's been a while since I watched the movie, but I thought they shook hands.

yet we'd never actually seen them interact in TPM; AND she also insists on rescuing him, so that's probably implying friendship.

No, it's implying that she wants to save the friend and mentor of Anakin. In fact, it does more than imply it, it says it.

It would help in keeping the ensemble close and tight-knit,

How? By putting in an unncessary relationship?

rather than the scattered mess we have so far.

What scattered mess?

Yes, aside from the interrogation they had ten years earlier.

OK. So what's your point?

So because of that, they're never going to interact? That's reaching for an explanation, especially given that Yoda is the head of the Council and Anakin is the supposed Chosen One.

There isn't a need for an explanation. It seems to me that you're the one who's reaching, for yet another reason to snipe at the PT.

Something beyond basic plot exposition.

Like what?

The ensemble is factioned into little groups, which is what I said when I mentioned them talking through buffers. Nice try in attempting to steer the point away or blow it out of proportion. For the sake of clarity,

Yes, please, because what you're saying still isn't that clear.

we have Mace, Obi-wan, and Yoda conversing with dull line delivery

No, they talk like Jedi who are discussing something.

against blue screen. They just kinda stand there, look in Yoda's general direction when he says something, and take a few steps again.

Yes, they do. Were they supposed to turn cartwheels and make faces?

Wasted character.

How so?

I agree.

Wait, I thought you thought the Clone War battle scene was too short.

And all that in thirty minutes, thank you for helping me make my point.

No, I contradicted your point. You said that we meet Dooku and then jump into the duel. Thirty minutes is a pretty good chunk of a two-hour movie.

A character can be "mysterious" without being suffled off to the end with bad editing decisions.

And a character can be mysterious a lot more easily without unnecessarily sticking him in scenes just to have him in scenes.

And besides, I said Dooku was the VISIBLE VILLAIN, not the real villain.

True. So what's your point?

All fifteen minutes?

Yep. But you keep contradicting yourself.

Yes, I did. There's a difference between REintroducing and introducing.

Yeah, so again, what's your point?

And what question is that? All you've done is ask questions til now.

My question was, where is this "wasting of 3/4ths of the movie by reintroducing characters"? You have yet to answer that.

When are we reintroduced to the returning characters in AOTC?

Um, in the beginning when Padme comes on screen, then when Anakin and Obi Wan show up. That takes about five minutes total of screen time.

Well, you've already acknowledged my claims with responses, so that makes them legitimate. Nice try though.

You're good at changing tacks, I give you that. I provided arguments against claims you made. Other times I asked you to clarify what you were saying, because you made no claim.

Nice try, though.

Add creating one of the most notorious, obnoxious, and repellant characters in cinema history and you have our boy.

Er...right. You said Lucas made it easy to snipe at him. I pointed out that people have always sniped at him. You said, "Two can play at this game: how?" I pointed out how. Now you're switching back to current criticism of Lucas. What you're purpose is in doing this, I'm not sure.

 

It's obvious George wants us to, since they're shown hugging at the beginning of AOTC, yet we'd never actually seen them interact in TPM

I believe Shelley is right, they shake hands. But that's a detail. You missed the obvious evidence for your argument, Loco. Palpatine suggests Obi-wan for the mission because he was "an old friend" of Padme. Obi-wan and Padme interacted very little in TPM, so I'm assuming some sort of friendship was actually kendled through the events of TPM, yet if so, all evidence is left to off screen. Either that or Palpatine's blowing smoke.


No, I contradicted your point. You said that we meet Dooku and then jump into the duel. Thirty minutes is a pretty good chunk of a two-hour movie.

1/4 of the movie's screentime for the main villian is a good chunk? I would have liked to have seen more of him.

 

I believe Shelley is right, they shake hands. But that's a detail. You missed the obvious evidence for your argument, Loco. Palpatine suggests Obi-wan for the mission because he was "an old friend" of Padme. Obi-wan and Padme interacted very little in TPM, so I'm assuming some sort of friendship was actually kendled through the events of TPM, yet if so, all evidence is left to off screen. Either that or Palpatine's blowing smoke.

You're right, Stryphe, he does say that. I favor the "blowing smoke" theory.

1/4 of the movie's screentime for the main villian is a good chunk? I would have liked to have seen more of him.

He's not the main villain.

 

You're right, Stryphe, he does say that. I favor the "blowing smoke" theory.

With Palpatine, it's hard to say. I assumed he was being truth because, heck, either they're friends or they ain't, and he'd look stupid making an obvious untrue statement if it were otherwise.


"1/4 of the movie's screentime for the main villian is a good chunk? I would have liked to have seen more of him."

He's not the main villain.

Not of the series (or trilogy), but of that chapter (AOTC), yes, he is. The whole chapter is about this Dooku cat who's stirring up all this trouble and what those chain of events unfolds.

Then, of course, the main villian of the series gets all of the 5 minutes in the movie. That was irritating. Palpatine is what holds my interest in the PT.

 

Calling Obi-Wan an "old friend" does not necessarily indicate they are or were good friends. In this instance, it could very well be because he's somebody she went through a tough time with. The friendship here could be more nostalgia than a true friendship.

 

Hugging? It's been a while since I watched the movie, but I thought they shook hands.

Like that detail changes the context of the scene.

No, it's implying that she wants to save the friend and mentor of Anakin. In fact, it does more than imply it, it says it.

So she doesn't care about Obi-wan one way or another? I see. Lovely characterization of Padme we're presented here.

How? By putting in an unncessary relationship?

Yes, we don't want too much character development in these movies, that would give them too much depth.

What scattered mess?

" The ensemble is factioned into little groups, which is what I said when I mentioned them talking through buffers. Nice try in attempting to steer the point away or blow it out of proportion. For the sake of clarity, we have Mace, Obi-wan, and Yoda conversing with dull line delivery against blue screen. They just kinda stand there, look in Yoda's general direction when he says something, and take a few steps again."

OK. So what's your point?

"Let's see, the supposed Chosen One, and the head of the Council never interacts with him..."

There isn't a need for an explanation. It seems to me that you're the one who's reaching, for yet another reason to snipe at the PT.

Neh, not really, you're masking your inability to defend poor decisions made by Lucas (saying they don't "need" an explanation) by writing them off as anti-PT rhetoric.

Like what?

As was said before, you have the DVDs, they're there.

Yes, please, because what you're saying still isn't that clear.

Oh, it's quite clear; you're simply muddling the discussion by asking questions when you can't formulate a response.

No, they talk like Jedi who are discussing something.

ie, dull PT dialogue with bland deliveries against artifical backdrops, very PT Jedi-like, yes.

Yes, they do. Were they supposed to turn cartwheels and make faces?

Jar Jar wasn't in the scene.

How so?

"Dooku doesn't make an appearance until the last part of the film, and his role was cut considerably shorter by Lucas in the editing phase."

Wait, I thought you thought the Clone War battle scene was too short.

It's called "compromise." The cutting of the Clone War would be more tolerable if the visible villain of the film were better developed, but did we get that? No. We got an abbreviated villain presence, AND an abbreviated Clone War. It ended up with both ends of the stick being short.

No, I contradicted your point. You said that we meet Dooku and then jump into the duel. Thirty minutes is a pretty good chunk of a two-hour movie.

Not for the main visible antagonist of the film.

And a character can be mysterious a lot more easily without unnecessarily sticking him in scenes just to have him in scenes.

If he progresses the plot, it isn't unnecessary. You're polarizing the issue.

True. So what's your point?

That you can't defend your stance without saying he's "he's not the main villain," as you did with myself and Stryphe.

Yep. But you keep contradicting yourself.

Oh? How so?

Yeah, so again, what's your point?

That Lucas wasted so much of AOTC reintroducing old characters that he shuffled off the new villain to the end; jeeze, it's not hard, Shelly.

My question was, where is this "wasting of 3/4ths of the movie by reintroducing characters"? You have yet to answer that.



When are we reintroduced to the returning characters in AOTC?

Um, in the beginning when Padme comes on scree

 

Should The Phantom Menace have been a prologue, not Episode I?

No.

 

I actually prefer that this movie be the first bona fide episode of Star Wars. That is how it was intended and how it was written. We got to trust that Mr Lucas knows what he is doing. It is his story to tell after all.

 

While we are talking about villians (Dooku, Palpatine, The Emperor and so on), everyone seems to be missing something.....














Darth Vader is the main and true villian of the Star Wars!

 

I actually prefer that this movie be the first bona fide episode of Star Wars. That is how it was intended and how it was written. We got to trust that Mr Lucas knows what he is doing. It is his story to tell after all.

Absolutely.

While we are talking about villians (Dooku, Palpatine, The Emperor and so on), everyone seems to be missing something.....

Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus and...

Darth Vader.

This is getting out of hand. Now there are four of them.

 

Darth Vader is the main and true villian of the Star Wars!

ANH didn't seem to think so. *tarkin!*cough*tarkin*



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Ooooo, good one there, Adam.

 

Loco:
OK, now, you see, comments like "...Neh, not really, you're masking your inability to defend poor decisions" and "Oh, it's quite clear; you're simply muddling the discussion by asking questions when you can't formulate a response" tend to lead to flaming (the term flame-baiting mean anything?). Breath in. Breath out. Then post. Let's have no more of that style of posting. That means you, too, Shelley. Don't rise to the bait.

 

What nerves the most,now that I read the varius posts,I realise that the two -probably- more important events in Anakin's life are not shown on screen,while THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!!I'm reffering to his training and the Clone Wars!Instead we get an animated series and probably some EU books,which offcourse do not make out for missing probably a good chance to see Anakin's potential during the training or a full scale of the "great hero" he should have been evolved into the Clone Wars...

 

Like that detail changes the context of the scene.

Loco, of course it changes the context. You suggested with them hugging that its an informal meeting and this to indicates the "friendship" they have.
Whereas the truth is they shook hands and this is more of a formal meeting and that indicates a more cordial, nostalgic friendship, which something I agree on with Durwood.

So she doesn't care about Obi-wan one way or another? I see. Lovely characterization of Padme we're presented here.

Thats not what Shelley was saying and neither should you try and make that argument, it just shows you're not doing very well.
The point is because Obi-Wan is Anakin's mentor, she does care about him because not only is he important to Anakin, but Obi-Wan did protect her from an assassination attempt. Or did you forget that?

 

I feel your pain, Obi-Kris_Kenobi.

 

Loco, of course it changes the context. You suggested with them hugging that its an informal meeting and this to indicates the "friendship" they have. Whereas the truth is they shook hands and this is more of a formal meeting and that indicates a more cordial, nostalgic friendship, which something I agree on with Durwood.

There's also the detail given by Stryphe in reference to Palpatine. It would look incredibly stupid for the character to be saying an untruth on something so simple or extending "friendship" to mean something other than friendship.

Thats not what Shelley was saying and neither should you try and make that argument, it just shows you're not doing very well. The point is because Obi-Wan is Anakin's mentor, she does care about him because not only is he important to Anakin, but Obi-Wan did protect her from an assassination attempt. Or did you forget that?

So friendship doesn't play into it? It's "returning a favor" then?

 

There's also the detail given by Stryphe in reference to Palpatine. It would look incredibly stupid for the character to be saying an untruth on something so simple or extending "friendship" to mean something other than friendship.

But it all depends on how you would define friendship, doesn't it?
And I've already defined what type of friendship is shared between Obi-Wan and Padme.

So friendship doesn't play into it? It's "returning a favor" then?

Can't I simply add to the friendship bit with other reasons why she would want to save Obi-Wan?

I'm tired of your arguing for argument sake.