Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by Liz Skywalker, Jun 30, 2002.

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Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

Poll closed Mar 24, 2012.
Yes. 134 vote(s) 31.5%
No. 247 vote(s) 58.0%
It should be made optional, but it shouldn't be stricken. 16 vote(s) 3.8%
Undecided. 3 vote(s) 0.7%
Don't care either way. 26 vote(s) 6.1%
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  1. V Wing Fighter Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 1999
    star 4
  2. xoman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Wow, some of you folks are wacky!

    I thought Jesus was a semitic Jew, not white. Furthermore, so were his disciples with the possible exception of Paul who's the traditional founder of the Christian faith. He was supposedly a Roman citizen, but he was from Asia Minor so he most likely wasn't white.

    I could be wrong though, I wasn't there and the records are very poor. In fact, not one of the books of the new testament actually date back to the time of Jesus. According to historians, the earliest one, the Gospel of Mark, dates to 50 C.E.

    Note: C.E. means common era, used by some historians to replace A.D. so as not to predispose the divinity of Jesus.
  3. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    For all of those who believe it is wrong to say 'God' instead of 'Allah', 'Buddha', etc. need to realize that God is the English word for these other names. And, here in America, I don't know if you realize this, but we speak English.

    First of all, "God" is not under any circumstances English for "Buddha." Buddhists do not believe that Buddha is a god or even a prophet. Buddha is a Buddha, but "Buddha" does not equal "God." There is no word in English for what Buddha is believed to be by Buddhists. Get your facts straight.

    Second, not all of us here in America speak English. Either deal with it, or move somewhere else.

    Third, even if you did include all religious communities, you are not representing those who either do not believe in God or who do not believe that their religious identity is part of their national identity and wouldn't want to take an oath to their country and involve their God.

    the POA in it's current form is the very thing the First Amendment was designed to protect against: an oath swearing religious belief as an essential part of loyalty to the country. it's BS and the "under God" line needs to go immediately.
  4. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    The Constitution says "Freedom Of Religion", not "Freedom From Religion".1

    in any case having to do with the government or national civic identity, they are one and the same.

    ======

    If they take out "under God" they aren't giving us Christians freedom of religion, they're taking away that freedom.

    that is such a load of garbage. you are free to say whatever you please. you aren't free to force the rest of us to proclaim that we believe in God if we don't. period.

    ======

    Christians feel persecuted because we are.

    oh, please!

    We are the only religion in the world that has missionaries who are dying daily just because of their faith.

    as has been pointed out, you are the only religion that makes such a big effort on the missionary front. outside of whatever humanitarian work (i.e. spiritual bribery and taking advantage of people's desperation) they may do, missionary work in and of itself is pretty offensive, and most of the missionaries who are killed bring it on themselves by being completely offensive to non-believers.
  5. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    I would just like to point out something V Wing Fighter Pilot said.

    "If it said "One nation, under Allah" Mark my words there would be no problem."


    Now who honestly believes that would be true?

    You would have christians from all over the country up in arms, maybe even a militia of christians ready to take over this country in order to reinstate the phrase "under God" back into the POA. :p

    Latre! :D
  6. Bant428 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 4
    No.
    I think that even if someone is an atheist, they still worship some sort of god (whether they know it or not): Money, Power, Stocks, America, Freedom...
  7. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Wow! I didn't know money was technically a God!

    Thanks for shedding light on that for me. Now my whole idea about this world is shattered, and I now must start praying to the almighty dollar, and pledging my allegiance to this one nation under money.

    :p


    Latre! :D
  8. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    No.
    I think that even if someone is an atheist, they still worship some sort of god (whether they know it or not): Money, Power, Stocks, America, Freedom...


    this is incredibly insulting.
  9. xoman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Hey Bant 428, now that I think about it, you're right. I thought I was a devout agnostic / atheist but it turns out I actually worship you!

    Not!
  10. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    That cleared some things up for me too...Here I thought I was happy being an atheist. I guess I do believe in money. You should all join my money religion. If you don't you will suffer a fate worse than death.
  11. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I for one hate to be off topic, but I'm in! ;)

    :p

    Once again, another post not relevant to the topic, but instead a post used to show someone's belief in a god, and that everyone believes in one! :eek:

    While I try to compromise, and be logical, others use this forum to push their view onto others, and not give a damn about how others feel, or respect other people's beliefs.

    Latre! :D
  12. Jedi4Christ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    Everybody has a "faith" and everybody is religious. Weather they know it or not. Ever body has a belief about how we got here (origins) for say, and that is accepted on faith, since none of us were their in the past to see how we got here.

    Being a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, I say we keep God in the pledge of allegiance. Besides our founding fathers believed in the religion of Christianity, and personally I wish that is something that this nation would return to.

    In Christ,
    - Jedi
  13. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, but this country is not just made up of followers of your lord jesus christ.

    In addition, I believe we are all here just by chance, or "luck of the draw" if you will.

    And we could all easily go at anytime, be it by a man made event, weather event, or cosmic event.

    The founding fathers also belived in slavery and not giving rights to women. Should we also return to that?

    Latre! :D
  14. Jedi4Christ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    No, a pure Biblical Worldview would be best. ;)

    HIS Servant,
    - Jedi
  15. V Wing Fighter Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 1999
    star 4
    No, I ment that if the pledge had "under (insert diety of some minority group in Amerrica here)." There would be no problem because this nation's judges are all way too scared to do anything against any group anymore because then the media gets a hold of it, and yells that it was racisim. My favorite example is that of OJ Simpson. Who, in case your forgetting the evidence, had an extreme amount of evidence against him. But, wait, the media is watching, and the jury, not wanting to be labeled racist buy the media let him walk. This happens with tons of different groups. Why is it nowadays all someone needs to do is yell racism in order to stop something???

    Getting back to my comment about "uner allah"...

    You can now see how I feel about such things. I don't know whos sig its in, but someone here even has said "America is the only country where Minority rules". If you ask him to what extent he meant by this statement, you will see he is completely correct. My point was that if the pledge had included a diety of a religon not practiced by the majority of Americans, there would be no ruling. As Ive said before, anything now is racism... sad really.
  16. xoman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Oh, you poor delusional fools...

    How do you KNOW EVERYONE has faith? Have you talked to EVERYONE? Have you done a study, or survey?

    I don't have "faith." I operate under a working hypothesis. Defined as such -

    A tentative theory or supposition provisionally adopted to explain certain facts, and to guide in the investigation of others; hence, frequently called a working hypothesis.

    F.Y.I.: I grew up a baptist, even went to a baptist school. I was devout, prayed, and even "led" my mom to Jesus (boy do I regret that!). As I grew older, read more, and was more able to use my brain to observe people and the world around me, the brain washing wore off.

    What's my point? Don't believe everything you read, hear, or even feel. Question everything, all the time. Don't be certain of anything, as people who are certain are generally fools. I don't remember who said it, but its true that "the unexamined life is not worth living."

    As for the person that says that the attempt to remove "under god" from the pledge stems from racism, I feel badly for you. You really should get some help, seriously.

    Who is perpetrating this racism? Blacks? Hispanics? Jews? Asians? Middle Easterners? From the numbers I've seen, the vast majority of blacks and hispanics consider themselves Christians. Jews and Muslims supposedly worship the same god. I guess it must be all the Asian lawmakers and judges that are behind this nefarious plot. I don't know how we can defend ourselves against the kind of power these people wield, there are so many of them...

    Again, this issue is not about taking away YOUR rights. Its about taking away the governments power to promote a religious agenda. YOU can still say whatever YOU want to say unless you are an agent of the "man" doing your official duty.

    Its really funny to me that the same folks who won't trust teachers to teach kids about sex are o.k. with teachers giving religious instruction.

    O.k., enough rambling...
  17. I_have_zam_cards Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 1
    our country was built on religion
  18. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    And if we go with that line of thinking, should our country have a national religion, because it was built on religion?

    And if so, who's religion? The one that those who founded this country believed in?

    What then about those who don't practice that religion, or those who don't believe in religion?

    Do we just forget that they even exist just because they are in the minority?

    As I have stated before. You have as much right to say a pledge to your country without there being a phrase "one nation not under any mythical beings," as I do when pledging to my country without there being the phrase "one nation under god," which was not even in the POA when it was first adapted as our country's POA!

    How come the author didn't include "under God" when it was first written? And look at who lobbyed for it to be added to the POA, and for what reasons.

    Latre! :D
  19. xoman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Our country was NOT founded on religion.

    Our country was founded by rich white men who didn't want to give women or the landless the vote. They treated blacks and indiginous peoples as sub-human. A lot of them and their ancestors fled to the New World to escape religious persecution (by other CHRISTIANS!).

    Why is it that people who support the pledge as is, cannot respond to this topic in a rational way? Its always been this way (it hasn't), or this country is going to hell in a handbasket are not rational arguments. Use the brains you think your god gave you dang it!
  20. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I wouldn't have put it like xoman did, only because I wouldn't want to run the risk of getting banned again :p but he does bring up a valid argument. :)

    Is it just too hard to think up a rational reason as to why "under God" should be left in the POA?

    Is it just easier to say that it belongs there because you believe in God, or because everyone believes in a God, or that this country should believe in God, or that this country should return to God, or that this country was founded by God?

    Do you not see why those who don't believe in a Judeo-Christian god, or any religion at all might feel excluded when pledging allegiance to their country?

    Okay, I will admit it, this is not that big of an issue, but that doesn't make it right to have that phrase in the POA, especially when not everyone in America believes in "God." And for others to tell us to just not say it should make the point even more apparent.

    Once again, I'm not saying that you have to stop believing in God, or stop worshipping a God. All I am asking for is a compromise to make everyone feel included when saying a pledge to their country.

    A neutral POA is one such compromise. Another would be two versions, one without "under God" and one with. Or just not saying it at all would be a good compromise, such as Darthmom10 has suggested in past posts here.

    Latre! :D
  21. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    our country was built on religion

    even if we are to accept that this is true, our country was also built with the slave labor of black people over the bodies of red people. the religion of the white people behind both of those atrocities actively encouraged both of those atrocities.

    America had a pretty awful beginning - the challenge is to get better from there.
  22. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Actually most of the founders of this country were masons and as such had different values than christianity.



    I really wish Christians would stop pushing their religion on everyone else.
  23. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks for restating that fact sleazo. :)

    Most people that argue for the phrase to be left in don't even know what religion the founding fathers practiced.

    In addition, just like almost everything in this country, people don't have the same values and beliefs as the individuals did back when this country was founded. Those change over time as well.

    Perhaps back when "under God" was put into the POA, it was very acceptable, no matter how wrong it was to have put it in. It was the beginning of the Cold War, and the country was trying to seperate itself from Russia. Perhaps another outcome of the Red Scare that didn't go away like McCarthism.

    Anyway, America today is very different from when it was founded, as it is very different from the 1950's when the phrase was put in.

    The pledge should also reflect this greater diversity and make everyone feel included when they are pledging their allegiance to this country of OURS! Not just those who believe in a god!

    Latre! :D
  24. Nomi Jade Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I think everyone in here needs to stop bashing and listen. Instead of reading the whole paragraph and pointing out the only bad part, maybe give some credit to others! Some of you, religious or not, are sure showing a lack of faith.... in each other.
  25. Master-Jedi-Smith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well, just for you, I will repost this whole paragraph, and see what is actually the good and bad of it. :)


    "However, in the past few decades, it has become common among Americans to change things. Some for the better, yet some, like this, possibly for the worse. Some adults, not all, but some, are acting like preteens. Lately, it has seemed that the 'cool' thing is to be non-white, be liberal, and not be Christian. It upsets me that the descendents from the once-powerful leaders of this desription are now experiencing prejudice.


    Number 1.

    Americans have not just started changing things in America. It has always been changing from the beginning. Even the first government we had changed to what we have now.

    Number 2.

    Some things have changed for the good, with that I do agree with you. But as for this being something that is a change for the worse I don't. I don't see what is bad about wanting to include everyone, and not just those who don't believe in a god, but those who believe in another higher being other than god.

    Number 3.

    Some adults are acting like preteens. Well, maybe some. :p But then, some of those we "talk" to here are in their teens. Not to look down on anyone because of there age, I am a big believer that the older you get, usually, the more wiser you get. And by that I mean that you just experience more things in life. I was not the same person I was 10, 15, or 20 years ago. To think back about the way I thought and behaved then, it makes me cringe almost a much as when I watch The Phantom Menace. :p

    Do I believe that all adults are smarter, heck no. I know many a stupid adult. But my point is as you get older, your world expands. You are not confined to just your family and circle of school friends. But hey, that's just been my experience. :)

    Number 4.

    As for it not being "cool" to be white, conservative, and christian, that is all a matter of perception, and shows just how diverse our country is. It is not made up of just white, conservative, and christian individuals. As for the coolness, those who are those three things probably do feel that it is cool to be so. As do those who aren't those three feel that is it cool to be what they are.

    Number 5.

    As for being upset about the descendents from the once-powerful leaders of that description now beginning to experience prejudice, well what can I say, what goes around comes around.

    Now before people get all upset let me tell you, I, probably like many, many, many other people here am of mixed race. I have German, Mexican, Native American, English, and who the hell knows whatever else in me. :p

    What does that mean? It means, that I don't believe one race of people to be superior over another. Nor do I believe that one group should have an unfair advantage over another. Life usually doesn't work that way, but at least here in America, we try to level the playing field for everyone.

    Are we to put those descendents that you mention up on a pedestal and worship them like a god because their forefathers were who they were? If so, should we pay African Americans reparations because their forefathers were slaves?

    I would have to say no for each case. Is it prejudice because they aren't worshipped anymore, and losing power? My self, I don't see that too much has changed over 200 years. Powerful, white, religious males are still in charge of many things in America. As I said before, changes have come about in order to level the playing field because otherwise nothing probably would ever change.



    There, I dissected a whole paragraph! :eek:

    And I actually agreed with something in it! :p

    Anyways, don't think I think about this stuff all day long. I just like to get a good discussion going! :D

    Latre! :D
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