Discussion Should the Sequel Trilogy Use Western or Eastern Influence for Lightsaber Combat?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Scars Unseen, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. Scars Unseen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Okay, so I think we all know what probably will happen. The choreography in Ep VII - IX will follow that of the prequels. It's almost a certainty. The question is should it?

    In the classic trilogy, there was a fairly clear European influence on the style of fighting used in the lightsaber duels(most identifiable in the last exchange between Luke and Vader in RotJ). It's old, a bit on the clunky side to modern audiences, but it is definitely there. Force use was mostly limited to object manipulation by Vader.

    The prequels eschewed that influence for a more energetic eastern style that would fit better in a Chinese wuxia film than in a European fantasy epic. TPM still kept things relatively grounded, but Ep II & III... well there's a gif that I'm sure most people on this site are pretty familiar with by now. Regardless, it is clear that the Prequels took an order of knights and made them seem more like an order of fighting monks. Some may prefer that; some may not.

    So now we come to the sequels. If we take what is on screen as canon, it seems that either the highly developed Jedi fighting styles of the Old Republic died with the order that used them, or Obiwan felt that Luke didn't need to learn them(maybe he was saving that for the advanced class... oops). Either way, Luke's fighting style is not that of the old Jedi Order. Unless he uncovered a holocron or something that detailed the old forms of fighting, it seems likely that any new Jedi Order(not referring to the EU NJO) would develop its fighting style along the lines of what Luke knew.

    So what do you think? What would you want to see on screen for the sequels?

    Here's an example of how a western influenced fight could look(the video is not fully choreographed though, so take it as a rough example):

  2. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Why is that almost a certainty? Nothing is certain at this point, since nothing is known at this point.

    The PT fights are flashy but lack substance. Lots of waving around and very little that makes any kind of tactical sense.
    That being said, a fight can at the same time be visually appealing and still have a more realistic feel to it, which is something that I think they'll go for. Every move should look like it's actually trying to kill/maim/disarm the opponent. That move can be complex and boosted by Force powers, but it shouldn't look like a ballet with neon tubes.

    So, something between the OT and PT styles, probably.
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  3. Scars Unseen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013

    Well I would certainly prefer something with more substance, but... well I've seen Abrams' Star Trek, so I've currently got my expectations set to "well at least it isn't Michael Bay."
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  4. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

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    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    Well that's a matter of personal taste. In my view, Star Trek was everything that a revitalizing reboot of a dying franchise should be. Fun and dynamic, entertaining without being dumbed down and a good fun flick that sets the stage for things to come. It had substance and it had great action, and they were in a good balance.

    I would certainly not compare it with Michael Bay since Michael Bay is...just crap.
  5. Scars Unseen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Wasn't trying to say that Abrams is on Bay's level... okay. Let me clarify: I think that Abrams is perfectly capable of creating a movie that exceeds the quality of what we got in Attack of the Clones. On the other hand, I absolutely don't think that he has an Empire Strikes Back in him. Abrams's work has struck me as being best described as "serviceable." A step beyond "adequate," but a whole order of magnitude below "great."

    So that's what I'm expecting to happen with Ep VII. I expect that the movie -including any lightsaber duels- will do what they need to to be entertaining, but little else. I'd just prefer more.
  6. TheManFromMortis Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2012
    star 2
    _ _ _ _

    This is an interesting question. I think there are a whole bunch of questions about how different the new Jedi Order, if such an order even exists in the ST, will be when compared to the PT-era Jedi. I think we'll probably all agree that Luke's training was probably far less extensive than those of the PT-era Jedi, for instance. Then there are the questions about marriage, love, attachment etc. I'd like to see Luke realising that his training was, to an extent, not really completed. I'd also like him to begin to understand that the old order had its imperfections and that things can be done differently.

    With specific regard to fighting style, I think Luke will still be more OT than PT. The younger Jedi will probably develop their own style, which may or may not borrow more from the PT-era fighting styles .... assuming they have any access to information about those fighting styles.
  7. yodasbum Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2004
    star 2
    I'd like a new style to represent the need to learn lightsaber combat for themselves. All Jedi trained by Luke Should adopt some of his OT style.
  8. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I expect to see light saber duels more akin to that of the PT, this is the 21st century guys, the light saber duels of the OT are dated, as is the OT itself. It's safe to guess that the ST will begin a minimum of 32 years post-RotJ, so Luke has had time to either re-discover the old forms of Light saber fighting (or talked with Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Anakin about such subjects) and teach them to the new Jedi of the fledgling Order. Whatever form the Jedi Order takes in this time, it will probably be small, and mostly young, and therefore more prone to taking acrobatic risks in lightsaber combat--like Anakin Skywalker did.
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  9. BountyHunter76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    I think Luke can be depicted using his OT style, or he can enhance it to something new. Either way to me part of the fun is seeing the contrast in whatever saber technique the enemy is using.
  10. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    Maybe the new Jedi will only use the force for knowledge and defense and wont train with the lightsaber at all.
  11. Scars Unseen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    False dichotomy. The western influenced fighting in the OT isn't dated because it's western influenced. It's dated because the OT is old. There is no reason that the Sequel Trilogy cannot take the western influence of the OT and apply modern choreography skills to it instead of doing a complete 180° on the fighting style like the prequels did.
  12. Darth Claire Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2012
    star 4
    Well which one gives me the more brutal, less overly choreographed fights? I just dont want this again
    [IMG]
    I just want to see Jedi and sith brutally beat the **** out of eachother without any fancy smancy swirls and such.
    Last edited by Darth Claire, Mar 6, 2013
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  13. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    Go to 2:40:



    This is what I want the ST duels to look like. Its almost a style unto its own, not clearly influenced by eastern pr western choreography. Fast paced, enthralling, and complimented by excellent use of camera movement. Also, notice how each strike is a potential killing blow, and each block is a life saving one.

    The best thing about this style is that it elevates your opinion of the people in the duel. The viewer can see that these aren't just people waving around fancy glowsticks like in the prequels. By the same token, you can see that these people aren't fighting slowly due to lack of experience or other disabling issues like the duels of the OT. These are clearly masters of their craft, able to place their saber exactly where it needs to be almost on instinct, able to change their approach on the fly without ever slowing down, able to go from an aggressive lunge attack to a defensive stance in the blink of an eye.

    As you're watching this, you realize that these aren't things an ordinary person could achieve. Only through mastery of the force can a Jedi or Sith be able to fight like this.
  14. Order66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2004
    star 1
    Maybe a better question might be: Who do you think is likely to be the stunt coordinator/sword fight coordinator?

    Peter Diamond did the OT (but he’s passed)
    Bob Anderson helped Diamond and stunted Vader (he’s passed too)
    Nick Gillard did the PT
    Kyle Rowling stunted for Dooku
    Andreas Petrides just finished Merlin TV series
    Ray Park as Darth Maul is certainly capable

    Then there are choreographers of very popular programs on TV, cable, and in the movies: Spartacus, Highlander
    Revolution, 300, Pirates of the Caribbean, Gladiator, Last Samurai, Knight’s Tale, Rob Roy, Musketeer, Game of Thrones, Kill Bill, Troy.

    These stunt coordinators are always looking for the next gig.

    The distinction of East vs. West may be too broad a brush stroke, and perhaps irrelevant since choreography can be very distinct while still being eclectic in its influences. Obi-Wan’s iconic stance with lightsaber over head and an extended hand is a direct steal from a tai chi move, but his lightsaber style is far from tai chi.

    Western martial arts don’t look cinematic enough and Eastern martial arts look, well, Asian.
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  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Ryan vs Dorkman style please. These duels are extremely intense while including a "bit" of flash (not too much though imo). *drool*

  16. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    What I love about RvD is just how insanely inventive it is. That fight has so many little "what if?" scenarios that remind me of Raiders-era Speilberg. I think that sense of fun and unpredictability, mixed with some really wicked looking athletic choreography (see my post above) would be absolutely amazing. In fact, I'd say a fight such as that would be better than any cinematic duel we've ever seen.
    Last edited by starmin76, Mar 6, 2013
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  17. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    They're going to be flying and floating around.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @starmin76
    Absolutely. What I also love about these fights are the facial expressions: determination, surprise, pain and even sadism. It really sells that those two people are fighting to the death.
    Another thing I noticed are those little slower sequences (example the wall scene). Those are almost more intense than the fast ones. I think it is really important to give viewers a bit of breathing room so they can properly realize what is going on.
  19. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    @Darth_Pevra Definitely, and that brings me to another point: pacing is everything. The RvD duel is six minutes of straight lightsaber fighting, but not once did I get bored.

    Contrast that with Anakin vs Obi Wan. That duel starts with an energy and ferocity that kept you engaged (intercutting with Yoda/Sidious helped) but by the time you reach the balance beam or the "Tarzan with lightsabers" sequence, you're already bored. They tried to go for high emotion the entire time, while moving to increasingly ridiculous stunts. It just didn't work.
  20. DARTHLARS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    The moves in that video are not that different from moves used in Japanese sword fighting.

    A technique in western sword fighting, though, is that the fighters build up adrenaline to help unleash themselves against their opponents... As you may already understand, that would not be the Jedi way.
  21. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    They'll be fighting with Yeastern influence. Violent Bake sales and epic cookie baking standoffs.
  22. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    If the Jedi are bakers, the Sith should be confectioners.
    YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE PEPPERMINT BARK-SIDE.


    Sorry. Back on topic.
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I'd like to see OT style, less wasted motion. Although I do like the Maul fight in TPM.
  24. Sith-Lord-Gunray Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2003
    star 6
    Western style would be more appropriate.
  25. Darthchrontis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    I'd rather see a pt duel than ot duel any day, and I grew up with the ot, I'm not sure the about the reverence of the ot duels. I don't think it will be a mix either.
    Sitara likes this.