Discussion Should there be a gay character in Episode VII Pt 2

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Esg, Nov 17, 2012.

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  1. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    i am seeing some gay sith on sith action on the horizon .. like maybe a demi moore 'ghost' pottery scene with an emperor type doing a reach around on a maul type ... ya know showing him how to build his lightsaber or something like that ..
  2. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    Good lord, @Yodahasgreenfeet, just make sure there aren't any Twinkies around.
  3. Yodahasgreenfeet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2
    I don't get the joke or if it was at my expense but I've let go in this thread expecting that others would too. If you hold onto any grudges or bitter feelings then we really are connected but in a way that doesn't benefit any one . I was wrong I admit that now. I never liked Twinkies.
    Last edited by Yodahasgreenfeet, Nov 18, 2012
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    No, I certainly am not, and I have said as much. In fact, I think the concept of the "token gay character" is insulting to gay people in its assumption that they aren't normal and need some "gift portrayal" from movie makers that we "normal" folks don't need. You, however, are assuming that those of us who don't think that gay characters should be BANNED from the series because of their sexual orientation, must be trying to make a statement and that inference was predetermined in your mind before you even read my posts.
  5. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Here's a suggestion: before you click "post reply," re-read your post, but now imagine the word "Black" where you wrote "gay," and "White" where you wrote "straight." If your post all of a sudden seems to look like bigotry now, don't post; it was bigotry before as well.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Nov 18, 2012
    Mia Mesharad, krtmd, Robimus and 2 others like this.
  6. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I did read your post.
    The thing is, that is a ways outside of what is normally in a Star Wars movie (traditional love stories), as well as the movies and stories that influenced Star Wars to become what it is; that is why the idea feels forced to begin with (unless Ming the Merciless was gay, but I don't think he was...). If the writer of the new movie was inspired to use a gay character when he was writing the story as part of his normal writing process (he wasn't adding it for the sake of adding a gay character), I don't per se have a problem with it, provided it was a good story (and fit well with the overall Star Wars tradition, and wasn't a fish-out-of-water story). I just don't see this happening, but you never know.
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    There are so many subtle ways to make that reveal.

    And no its not discriminatory to not portray a gay character in stereotypical fashion. Quite the reverse actually.

    I wonder though, does including a gay or lesbian character(or characters) in a Star Wars film mean that they would become the central focus of the film(s)?
    Last edited by Robimus, Nov 18, 2012
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Fuchsia lightsaber crystal?
    Esg likes this.
  9. aguywithabiggun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 1999
    star 4



    (dont know how to do that cool overlapping quote thing)

    No of course I didn't mean it in that way and I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt. There are of course a multitude of context within the SW universe that the LGBT debate can benefit from and vice versa. The point I was trying to make is that in a universe with billions and billions of entities there are going to be a variety of beings with a variety of traits. We can infer that some are going to be gay, lesbian, bi and transgender just as we can infer that there are beings who adhere to various spiritual paths; this has never stopped anyone from loving these films. Furthermore, and I must disclaim that I know nothing of the EU as I am one of those freaks that prefers non fiction (I read physics books for fun what the hell is wrong with me), it doesn't even appear to be an issue at all in the SW universe. It seem exclusion and bias are non essential equations when galactic domination is the order of the day. (unless you are an ewok)

    This is part at least, of what makes it so great. It's a model for what we all hope one day can be our paradigm for the LGBT issue. I wanted to clarify what I think some people in this thread are trying to get across and that is that it's probably not neccessary to make a focused point about it as we all already know they are present. Thats not to say that the SW universe could not benefit from the interesting implications and context created by an inclusion of a LGBT character; it certainly could. However it wouldn't benefit from bringing an emotionaly charged issue to the forefront in lieu of smashing rebel scum. (and ewoks)

    With all that in mind, apathy is a killer. So the debate here needs to be clarified: are we talking about the inclusion of a LGBT character or are we talking about using SW as a platform for social change? The former is welcomed, the latter is not.

    I know several gay and lesbian people and they, and I'm not just spewing token lines, are some of the most real and down to earth people I know. They tell me that they see change on the horizon even though it's been, and in some cases (just of the top of my head: it kills me to think that if i were gay and married I could not be at my partners side on his death bed at a hospital because I'm not granted the same rights as so called normal married couples), still continues to be a brutal fight. There are so many context for this debate that do not need a sci-fi movie as a platform. It can be done just so, i.e Harry Potter and not so much antagonist i.e Rachel Maddow.

    I say include them. Nevertheless not as a platform for social change.

    I'll be offline for a few hours but I'll be back this evening american central time. I hope I clarified my position.
  10. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Obviously not, but then the argument goes into the same circle, is it really necessary? Does it improve the movie? Is it put in just to make a PC statement that really isn't part of Star Wars? Does it begin to feel like some ridiculous new age SW?

    Again, I don't rule it out, but the idea doesn't jump out at me as a good one. Gay Jedi or space aliens? It feels contrived.

    One important example to add to this discussion:
    Is anyone here a big Sci-fi fan outside of SW?

    If so, one of the great writers of our time is John Varley. In his stories, there are almost always gay characters, and they fit well. However, those stories are VER DIFFERENT from stories, and incorporate a lot of sexuality. For example: On short story is about a society where it is normal to have 2-3 sex changes in a lifetime (not in the surgical sense, but growing a clone of the opposite sex and transplanting your brain into it). The story centers around a family where the wife wants to have a sex change, but the husband is old fashioned, and doesn't. This is fabulous and stunning Sci-fi that I greatly enjoy.

    The difference is, Star Wars is NOT that kind of Sci-fi, and I disagree that putting that sort of thing into a Star Wars movie makes for good story telling.
    Last edited by Lee_, Nov 18, 2012
  11. sashlon1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    But here again, you are conflating "inclusion of a gay character" with "story with a lot of sex or a sex-centered storyline." I don't understand the continued insistence that this is the only way to write a gay character.

    No, Star Wars is not sex-centered sci Fi, but that does not mean that a gay character would have no place in it, as gay people do have lives outside of their romantic interest in the same gender.
    Esg and thesevegetables like this.
  13. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Right, but you persist in trumpeting "what gay is" in life and in movies, and steering aside from my central point here (and not addressing my central point).
    No, that is not the only way to write a gay character, and since I do therapy groups that sometimes include gay people, I am fairly up to speed on there lives outside of romantic relationship; nonetheless, that really is not the point. The point is, is it a good fit in the particular story, and is there a reason to put it there pertaining to the given story? I think there really isn't in Star Wars, but that is just my opinion. If there was a thoughtful way to include it that didn't look foolish, strained and contrived, I am all for it.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    I had a possible example:

    It wouldn't have to be exactly along those lines, but it shouldn't be that hard to come up with.
  15. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Honestly, I think that example is pretty lame (heads popping up in bed together); a flash of gay people is exactly the kind of gratuitously inserted "gay for the sake of being gay" shots I think are ridiculous.

    I was thinking more along the lines of developing a character that is gay.

    The very trite, traditional type of romance between Anakin and Padme is straight out of Lucas's influences that make up what Star Wars is (30s/40s Sci-fi). It is going to have to be really thoughtful writing to make a gay character in Star Wars work, and I don't know that it is worthwhile considering there are a lot of other things to attend to (to make it a great film).
  16. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I would love to see gay people in this new next generation of. Movies, its very important to get the LGBT community behind this movie. It is good for everyone.
  17. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    I will probably get flamed for this. But i see homosexuality acts as disgusting. When i see 2 men kiss or 2 woman, whether in fiction or real life, i think its disgusting.

    Then again, sometimes seeing "acts" between 2 straight people can be disgusting as well. One of the reasons i don't like seeing very graphic sex in movies.

    I prefer seeing normal relationships in films, because i can identify with it more. Now some might say........

    "But StarWarsFan.......homosexuality is normal"

    Yes i know it exists in nature (even some animals i believe are gay), but im talking about normal in the sense as what the majority does (majority of Mankind and therefore romances are not gay).

    Call me intolerant....a bigot....a close minded person who belongs in another time if you would like.

    I like that there are many differences between the GFFA and Earth. I would like to keep it that way.
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    "What the majority does" isn't necessarily a guideline for "what should be included in a movie". In any context, not just romance.
    Danzo, Esg and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  19. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    This thread always turns into biggots who hate gays or gay mafia who want everyone to hug under a rainbow.

    its starwars sexual orentation was not really a big plot point.

    this just needs to be locked or put under community or some thing...yawn
  20. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Tough titty. Some of us have some semblance of mental fortitude
    If everything didn't go against what majority thinks I would be in chains

    Explain Basic. Explain Asians and Blacks in SW. Explain heterosexual realationships. Explain why Humans are called Humans and not something else
    Last edited by Esg, Nov 18, 2012
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Maybe this will be the exception?
  22. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    I don't see anyone here that hates gays. You could be referring to the people who don't want homosexuality in star wars for various reasons. But just because they think so, does not mean they hate people simply because said people are gay. Yes i said earlier, that homosexual acts do disgust me. But that doesn't mean i personally hate the people who do it.
  23. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Why are you here then if you aren't going to bother contributing something worthwhile?
    Last edited by Esg, Nov 18, 2012
  24. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Um.....when i said many differences, that does not mean EVERYTHING is different in the GFFA. Obviously there are similarities or else there wouldn't be humans. I'm simply saying if so many more Earth stuff is added to star wars, more then there already is, star wars would become less fantasy and closer to reality, and i wouldn't like that.
    Last edited by StarWarsFan91, Nov 18, 2012
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    There's lots of interesting questions that could be raised. Like

    "Would it be profitable for Disney to include such a character- would the number of extra people attracted to the movie be higher than the number who "refuse to see the movie the moment they find out".

    Or

    "Is Disney caught in a Catch-22 situation, where whatever they do they will be accused of "pandering" to one or more groups?"
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