Speculation Should there be gay characters in the ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Jedi Mountain, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Why not include Native Americans and transgendered folk? It doesn't have to be about them, but their presence doesn't hurt the film.

    I don't really see why you're attempting to equate including a gay character to abortion, though. Abortion is an action and an issue and would obviously have to deviate from the plot. Including a gay character wouldn't affect that in the slightest besides, y'know, the individual in question being attracted to individuals of the same sex rather than the opposite sex.

    Personally, I have to say that if we found a species of sentient, human-level intelligence dogs on Eart tomorrow, I would be more uncomfortable with a relationship between a human and a dog person than a gay relationship. Perhaps that's due to lack of familiarity, but there's probably a larger biological difference between two species than there is between the male and the female of a species -- just sayin'.

    That the latter discomforts people while the former doesn't just boggles my mind.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Nov 14, 2012
  2. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    So someone is not really a christian if they think homosexuality is a sin? Well that's news to me. Looks like the majority of the christian population are just Christians in name only.
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  3. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Regarding the political side of it, as long as they don't create a big deal about the character marketing wise, I don't see any harm. It's just that I know that some people may be sensitive or have doubts, as per what I said previously here. I'm sure they won't just create a gay character and call it a day. He or she would most likely have a noticeable (I'm assuming positive here) role in the film.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Nov 14, 2012
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  4. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Just No !
    We get enough politically correct stuff going on in everyday life.
    This is escapism at it's finest, please don't ruin it.
  5. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Well you won't notice it and that's what I am trying to suggest. You'll see and hear the character but there won't be anything to remove your suspension of disbelief. I don't think Luke will go around and shout "he's gay!"
    Last edited by GGrievous, Nov 14, 2012
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  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I believe you misread the post in question. Esg found it depressing that someone called themselves a Christian but used the incorrect spelling of "Christain" to label themselves as such.

    And certainly it's possible to be a Christian and not believe homosexuality is a sin. Christ himself never said anything about it directly and certainly many other portions of the Bible are ignored by believers, such as passages concerning slavery, the mixing of fabrics, etc. The post in question quoted Leviticus but I'm sure the individual in question doesn't take into consideration how to treat Hebrew slaves versus Gentile slaves, which is also found in Leviticus.

    But anyway, to get back on topic, I do hope that if a gay character was included that they would be written intelligently -- as a character first, who just happens to be gay. I dislike it when tokenism comes into play and we end up with "the gay one."
  7. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Thanks for clarifying PiettsHat, sorry about the misconception Esg.
  8. DarthMateous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 4
    As long a
    I'm not sure there's a place for that in the SW universe.
  9. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Learn 2 read. I was making fun of his typos
    Last edited by Esg, Nov 14, 2012
  10. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I would still welcome something like a gay character in the GFFA, as long as there won't be any issues political wise. That could tear this forum (or fandom) apart. :p
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  11. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2008
    star 4
    Star wars is escapism.

    I also wouldn't want a g@y character/dwarf in the upcoming Hobbit film either. It's just that i think some certain fantasy/scifi fiction do not need homosexuality.

    Yes i know the whole accept homosexuality thing as good/normal is all over in society these days, but that doesn't mean it has to show up in fantasy, especially when said fantasy has no connection to the earth and the humans of it.

    And star wars films have tended to lean more toward the family film status.

    Remember folks.....star wars does not have to have similarities to 21st century Earth

    Now if star wars was like star trek on the other hand, taking place in the future, connected earlier human history.....then that would be different.
    Last edited by StarWarsFan91, Nov 14, 2012
  12. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    But dismemberment, emotional manipulation, child killing, slavery, racial caricature, graphic immolation and english people are totally kosher.

    Interesting disconnect, in a franchise where a guy is burned alive onscreen while screaming about hate two guys kissing is gonna make people squeamish?
  13. EviL_eLF Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    Star Wars is made for kids... most likely the issue won't be approached. The closest you may come is someone like Dumbledore in the Harry Potter series... where it's sometimes vaguely implied at best.
  14. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    How would a gay character affect SW's family friendly status?
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  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    But how does a gay character hinder escapism? I guess that's my question. When black people were introduced in Star Wars in Empire Strikes Back, did that somehow hinder the escapism?

    Plus, I think it's a bit unfair to say that homosexuality is some "issue" in "society these days" or "21st century Earth." There have always been gay people -- the Spartans, famous historical figures (like Oscar Wilde, although he was more bisexual), the older word for lesbians, after all is "sapphists" from the Greek poet Sappho. In any given human population, at any given time period, there are going to be individuals who are gay -- it's as much a part of the human condition as the existence of different hair colors.

    Also, gay people are hardly antithetical to the idea of the family. Many gay people have families after all.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Nov 14, 2012
  16. Emperor Von Schweetz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1

    *daughter

    Yes, but it was undertone. And whenever they did surface, it fit into the story. So unless they can fit the character's homosexuality into the story, it shouldn't be in there.
    Last edited by Emperor Zombie, Nov 14, 2012
  17. Danzo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1

    Well the point isn't to bring sex into the game. The game isn't your typical MMO, it's a story driven game much like other titles from Bioware and one thing they often include in their games is romance with companions and NPC's so that you're story can go in the direction you want. The fade to blacks are merely there to show that the relationship has moved to another level.


    I'm genuinely curious to know if you also apply the rest of Leviticus to your life? I assume you don't eat fat (3:17)? Don't let your hair become unkempt (10:6)? Don't eat pork (11: 4-7)? Don't wear clothes with mixed fabrics (19:19)? Don't shave (19:27)? Are opposed to tattoo's and the people who have them (19:28)? I am honestly curious if you also abide by these or if you don't see these as a problem since society has evolved so much since the days in which these books were written?
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  18. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    The hell is a Christain? Does bleach work on it?
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  19. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    1. The Game: I see. I thought, though, one of the points of computer games was escapism - to get away from the every day turmoils of life such as relationships. Now it seems that just saving the universe is not enough :p

    2. The Bible: Don't be to quick to judge Legacy, Danzo. The New Testament does over rule some of the older beliefs at times. There is a lot in there too that is open to interpretation.
  20. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    What does that mean?
  21. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Whose escapism are we talking about here? Certainly not the numerous gay people worldwide who you would deny representation in Star Wars. Where is their escape? Is escapism only for the select few, who pass certain requirements and meet specific criteria? What then are we asking to escape to? A universe of intolerance, where people of differing ideas, beliefs, preferences, or traits are hidden, disallowed, persecuted, or even purged based upon archaic, nonsensical values? What the hell is the point then, at all?

    And I would almost laugh at the people decrying "political correctness" in this instance if it weren't so utterly disgusting. It's not a matter of being politically correct whatsoever, it's about common human decency being held as an ideal rather than being spat at. And asking that we leave out "political correctness" is just another way off asking to be an ******* without suffering the repercussions.
  22. Danzo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1

    In regards to the game, it's not so much that just saving the universe isn't enough but rather that people enjoy a good story. Look at games such as Force Unleashed or Grand Theft Auto IV or the Mass Effect series, they all feature potential love interests. A great form of escapism is immersing yourself in a story. In a computer game this is fairly easy to do since you take on the role of the main character and are able to directly influence the story. In SW:TOR this is fairly predominant since much of the game revolves around choice, do you chose to kill this person or spare them? Do you chose to send a squad in one direction whilst you attack from another or accompany them to increase their chances of survival? Do you chose to romance this person, that person or not romance anyone at all? I guess you could say it seems that just saving the Universe has never been enough since games have featured romance for the character you play for decades. :p

    In regards to the Bible, I'm honestly not judging but genuinely curious to know. If we bring in the subject of The New Testament it has almost nothing to say on homosexuality and that what it does say doesn't condemn homosexuality nor refer to it as a sin. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been. Moreover, there is nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Since The New Testament has little to say on the subject and he directly quoted Leviticus, I'm just honestly curious if he applies the rest of the passages to his daily life.
    Last edited by Danzo, Nov 15, 2012
  23. THE PortmanLuvva Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2012
    star 2
    If a gay person gets upset by the fact there aren't any gay people in the film, they shouldn't be watchin.
    If I get upset by the fact there aren't any girls in a film, I shouldn't be watchin.

    Ok, because Star Wars is so big it might be like a kick in the teeth but tough.[face_worried]
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  24. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    The Game: Isn't real enough difficult enough though? ;)

    The Bible: Perhaps "judge" was too strong a word - and I should have been more open to interpreting what you were asking as I was accused of something similar just last night in another section of the forum when I too was just curious. :)

    I had intended for my response to be more detailed but I was called away.

    There are many things in the Bible that are open to interpretation. All a person can really do is that.

    For examples, parts of the Bible say homosexuality is a sin, while others say love your neighbour and let who is without sin cast the first stone. It tells us it wrong to kill, yet it also says there are times when it is right and just.

    I just think we should all get along. I'm going to get judged at the Pearly Gates for enough without having to worry about the next guy. ;)

    BTW, I can't recall, but does the Bible speak just about men laying together or does it also mention women laying with women.
  25. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, indeed I am; let's be clear about that. My sole concern in all this from the beginning was just one thing: if you change something in this fashion, the films better still look and feel like Star Wars at the end of the day, or we've introduced diversity at the expense of the story, rather than to enhance the story. Your premise in turn was simple: "OK, then how about if you replaced a heterosexual character of one gender with an identical but homosexual character of a different gender, but keep the lines and all the rest intact; does that get the job done and still keep it looking and feeling like Star Wars?" My scenario about "Londa" was my way of answering: yes, it does; but as you said, it's not as simple as all that. The character would then need a polish in another draft of the script to make it seem like a real human being rather than a woman reading a man's lines.

    Why? Because if you introduce a change like that - or, indeed, any change at all - you then have to follow through on all the consequences of that change, essentially saying that if the character is a woman, she needs to be written like one - and yet she still has to do all the story duties Lando did in the film: she still has to appear friendly to Han, and charming to Leia, to lull them into a flase sense of security; she still has to invite them to dinner and reveal that Vader is there, and apologize to them; she still has to feel shock and remorse when Han goes into the carbonite; she still has to switch sides, risk being killed by Chewbacca, and then run around with the heroes shooting stormtroopers; and she still has to help go find Han at the end. But it has to be done in a way that is realistic for the kind of character you envisioned in your premise.

    As for the question of stereotypes, of "lipstick vs. butch," yes, I confess it: that was reductive in nature. But that's how it is in Star Wars: all the characters are reductive to a degree because they are archetypes; I insist that's not the same thing as stereotypes - Star Wars starts with an archetypal character because it needs to make it easy for the audience to understand where the characters are coming from - essentially, so they have something familiar in an unfamiliar environment - and then progresses that character into something more, greater, and different by the time it all ends. Han Solo, for instance, began as your basic off-the-shelf drug-runner character type, who prided himself on not needing anyone other than Chewbacca, the Falcon, and a cold beer to feel complete, and ended as a hero who understood what it meant to need someone and what love truly meant; that's his character arc, but he had to start as an archetype to allow that process to play out.

    It wouldn't be any different for "Londa," but it would have to play out in a way that suits a female character. And to do that, the writer would have to make choices about how to do that, and that's the only point I was making. Visual concerns are just as important here, because the audience has to understand at a glance what this person is like before she says a word (that too is a Star Wars thing to do). So that's why the question of how she looks becomes relevant, hence my questions about look and wardrobe. It does become the movie's problem: how to communicate things to a general audience as fast as possible? A general audience does take cues from little things like, as you cite, hairstyles, and yes, it would make one conclusion based on short hair, and another on long hair. In life, of course, it takes all kinds, and as you say, there are a myriad of personality types within the LGBT community as there are in all human beings; but this is a movie. Audience prejudices do come into it; how do you make that work for you? How do you harness that to your advantage? Discussions over things like look come into it, and they can help accomplish what you propose.

    My question about "minor concerns" is simply that: if you make this change, how would you design and write the character to do what you're proposing most effectively? The answer, of course, would be mere speculation - but this entire thread is speculation, so that point is moot. My scenario about a stolen girl or something along those lines was simply a flight of fancy, and was meant to be used as an illustration of one way - the first way that came to my mind at the time, but by no means the only way or the best way - to polish the character to make her work effectively. It's not so much that I'm throwing the question back in your face (although it could be perceived as such); it's more like I'm agreeing with your premise, but now I'm asking you to run with it and flesh it out: a change in gender requires a different character to get the job done, not just a switch in casting, so how would you go about doing so in a way that still serves the story of Empire as we understand it? Your answer will not definitively resolve the question this thread was meant to cover, but I suspect (and hope) that it'll at least get us away from discussing Biblical passages; that way lies madness. :p

    PS: And since we're on the subject of casting, who would you cast? I picked Pam Grier; who do you see in the role?
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