Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Jedi Mountain, Nov 12, 2012.
I think you'll find that "should there be..." WAS the original question
Okay, while I have qualms with some of your posts (I really think that some of the characters' orientation IS questionable, and Luke's is one of them,) I think this is absolutely good. I see this and I think of Captain Jack in Dr. Who - a great bi character whose orientation was absolutely obvious because of the way he was written. It wasn't inclusion because they needed a gay character to say they had one, it's just who the character was, and he was awesome.
I think you'll find the topic title and the topic body were different. But obviously semantics wasn't my point. "Should there be" is a tedious and unproductive topic.
In a previous post I asked to what extent people wanted to see gays represented in the films and never got an answer beyond a sarcastic remark (which I think was directed at me). Some, like yourself have offered ideas about two girls holding hands and stuff like that. But those are very peripheral relationships. For instance, in a thread (I believe on the TCW forum) I had brought up the desire to see an Asian character represented and someone referred me to Bultar Swan, like one extra who was on screen fleetingly was good enough. So I posed the question as to if "gay characters" was just asking for any kind of acknowledgement (like the equivalent of a Bultar Swan - background same-sex couples holding hands, kissing, etc.) or if we're talking more along the lines of a gay equivalent of Han Solo with the homosexual relationship at the forefront of the films in the same way that Han/Leia and Anakin/Padme were.
When it comes to peripheral relationships I fall into the I don't care group. I see no reason why homosexuals cannot be represented. But when we're talking about the likely handful of main human characters thrown in with aliens, droids and whatever else, and if the past films are anything to go by, there's probably going to be a single focal relationship. I don't think it's any more fair to put down those that would wish for that relationship to be heterosexual over homosexual, anymore than putting down someone for not wanting the main character to be Asian. Asked more broadly if Asians (to continue with my example) should be represented in the Star Wars universe at all, if people said "no," I would agree that it would be bigotry, but it's an entirely different question. And depending on any given user, it doesn't seem consistent at to whether or not we're talking about representation of homosexuals at all, or if we're talking about a homosexual relationship front and center.
Absolutely. It's not exclusive if the thought never occurs to you. A case could be made for it being ignorant (remember, ignorant doesn't mean stupid) but it's not by definition exclusive.
Once the idea is brought up, and is in your head space, though, it would be exclusive to deny the viability of the idea outright.
I'd also like to clarify that when I speak of ends not justifying the means, that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes necessary to do something unjust. LucasFilm is a business, and while it would be exclusive to outright dismiss the idea of the main character of Episode 7 being gay as a possibility, such a thing could be necessary. LucasFilm needs to make money to keep people employed and continue to produce entertainment, and it's sadly possible that such a decision could negatively impact their ability to do so.
So while it may be morally wrong, it might also be financially necessary. But that's not something to be proud of, and we here are not LucasFilm execs. When it comes to lending moral support to such an idea, a vote of "No" is, in my opinion, reprehensible.
Also, the above is speaking to something so prominent as to be a gay main character. That's not really the topic at hand. I don't think merely having a homosexual character present in the story presents a major financial obstacle to LucasFilm.
All that being said, SWTOR's servers just came up and I'm off to play. I think I've made my point of view on this issue plenty clear enough, and I truly feel my arguments stand on their own.
Speaking of SWTOR though, that's another place where this discussion has relevance. SWTOR is a game in which we were actually made a promise of inclusiveness, but that promise has yet to be fulfilled a year later. Worse yet, they have maintained radio silence on the issue. That's a serious breach of trust and ethics in my opinion, and I hope they resolve the issue soon so my monthly subscription fee can stop being accompanied with a side of bitterness.
But the the topic title is the original question - irelevant of whether you find it tedious and unproductive or not
There is a huge difference between saying "there should be more x-underrepresented leads in Hollywood movies" and the conclusion that "every lead in every movie needs to be part of x underrepresented group." Look at Red Tails. Lucas and McCallum had plenty of things to say about Hollywood studios being afraid to fund and distribute movies with African-American leads. But they certainly would never suggest that every movie with a white lead is somehow offensive and appalling.
An absolutely excellent example. Harkness was like a Han Solo that happened to be bi. It was a bit more explicitly touched upon in Torchwood, but even there I don't feel like it was anything other than just how that character happened to be. In fact, his portrayal in Torchwood is an excellent example of how a main character can be of a sexual orientation other than straight and not just be a token minority.
And of course characters' sexuality can be questioned, Luke could be in the closet, or bi, but I was speaking about the impression that is given without explicit expression. The point is that a character can be gay without it having to be the crux of his or her character.
You're so right, Stewjon. I'm totally the only person questioning the pertinence of this current conversation. insert smiley face.
Guys, remember we are all entitled to have our own opinions, let's not turn this into an arguement.
I have a feeling the MODS already have an eye on this thread!
I think that kind of thing is what the overwhelming majority of "pro" people in this thread are advocating, which is why those complaining about having major gay relationships are frustrating to us. Tokenism is bad, and forced political messages are bad. No one wants those. No one wants A Very Special Episode of Star Wars. What we should be debating is the ways to do gay characters that aren't those things.
OK, deviating a bit, but I don't see what implies anything about Luke to be gay. He was interested in Leia in ANH and at the beginning of ESB. Then he goes into Jedi training mode and was likely warned about attachments. Then to top it all off the girl that he had liked ends up being his sister. Luke wasn't the epitome of the masculine action hero stereotype, but I never thought he showed any indication that he was not straight. Asexual at best, which might have been due to the Jedi training.
I didn't say that - I was just responding to YOUR post about finding it tedious and unproductive.
There is a little more grey area there when talking about the main characters, but I also still think it's bigoted to dismiss the possibility. Saying it wouldn't be your preference is one thing, expressing the opinion that it shouldn't happen is another. Saying it shouldn't happen because it isn't your preference may not be expressly bigoted, but it is certainly selfish.
Further, Star Wars has always featured an ensemble cast. I see no need to exclude anyone from being represented in favor of representing someone else.
At the end of the day, while the ideas of the questions you posed as examples may not conform to your preferences, excluding the possibility is either bigoted or selfish, and neither is an admirable trait.
Ok, seriously, SWTOR is waiting. I do have the willpower to walk away from this discussion, really I do..... When I post this, if anyone has replied to me, I'll just come back to it later.... I can do that....
(Crap, I totally probably can't do that... Here's hoping no one has replied to me!)
Jedi's running around wearing banana hammocks, using pink light-sabers, and fighting with background music composed by Wham doesn't appeal to me. I am not saying I wouldn't watch the movie, I just think homo-erotic innuendos don't belong in Star Wars.
No, I can't see how a charachter's sexuality would have such a bearing on the series that it would be need to be more than maybe a tounge and cheek reference or maybe somthing that is seen on screen but not explicitly mentioned.
I have only browsed the thread so excuse me if someone else already said this.
I am not homophobic, I think homsexuals should have the right to get married and have any right that any other human being enjoys. I don't wanna see two dudes making out, but I do not think of them as lesser beings.
But I'll tell you right now if there is a guy on guy on screen in your face making out kissing scene then it is done and over and will kill the series.
I hate to even type it out, but it's true and you all know it.
LaMent, I'll simply repeat the first thing I said in this thread for you: Gay Characters =/= Gay Sex Scenes.
I would agree except you are the one making it a statement, my friend. No one here cares about any of this until someone makes it a point. Its all fine as long as people agree with you. Otherwise, it becomes a statement on how "ignorant" people are. Dont flash weapons without expecting a brawl.
We already have the droids
I'm fine with it so long as it isn't in to try and be modern and make a statement. If it fits with a character then fine, but don't do it for the sake of doing it.
Long live the gay rights thread ...
Ah, wait a second, is the thread title reffering Gay people as in really happy people. If it is then yeh im up for having gaypeople people in star wars. Jut not too many otherwise there wouldn't be any fights!
What if they're aliens?
Whats an aliens version of making out??
We could use more gayness in the films, after all, i don't want the ST to be to depressing/sad.
Regarding this, the situation is somewhat tricky. Making a major character gay is tricky because 95% of the audience is gay and to whatever extent they are less able to live vicariously through said character (a debateable factor, but it certainly does something to the 'get the girl/guy' component) the appeal is lessed is way that is impactful. On the other hand, token characters are bad, and no one wants to have a character defined as 'the gay character.'
That leaves open only mid-level supporting roles. Unfortunately the movies have never really had a particularly large number of roles of this nature, or have filled them with characters more or less incapable of exploring this question: droids, Jedi, Imperial military officers on duty, etc. If we look at the OT the only character who could have been utilized in such a fashion is Lando, who is already carrying minority representation.
I personal think that, once the ST script is written, then if it produces characters of this kind who could find a moment to reveal their sexual orientation without it impacting the plot, then Lucasfilm really ought to strongly considering doing that. However if it falls out that the script simply does not produce such an oppurtunity, there's really no good reason to try and push one forward.