Speculation Should there be gay characters in the ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Jedi Mountain, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. JainaSoloYJK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2010
    star 4
    I don't care...but there's no need for anything to be said or done on screen.
  2. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    I really won't care.
  3. darksideyesplease Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2005
    star 4
    I don't want to say that "Oh I don't want to see that." Because then it just feels like you are bashing it or something.

    Honestly I have no interest in seeing that. As a man, I actually do like romance and romantic movies and I like romance within movies that aren't really romance in genre. But I relate when it is a man and a woman falling in love because I relate to that.

    I think people like relationships because that's such a huge part of life and it is easy for the audience to connect with. "Oh yeah, I can see why Anakin would be in love with this beautiful young lady."

    And then the girls and guys go write these fan fics, because they want to be the one kissing Han or Leia in this fantasy world they are creating. I think that has a lot to do with it.

    But being a straight male, it doesn't interest me to watch homosexual relationships flurish, because I don't relate to it. In the real world I think people should be with anyone that makes them happy. Not having a companion really sucks.

    Now I also don't own a lightsaber and fight Sith, but I'd like to. So I can relate to that.

    Hope this doesn't come off at ignorant or bashing because it isn't intended to be. But if the OP is asking whether I WANT to see this, no. It would have never even crossed my mind.
    Last edited by darksideyesplease, Nov 12, 2012
  4. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    No. There's no need. We have known slave owners in the PT (the Twilek Senator) but no one dares insult their "culturisms". The fact is unless you're in the bedroom, gayness has nothing to do with work. We don't see a lot of romantic stuff going on unless it is completely pertinent to the story. The story is about the Skywalkers and their lives, so we see them but we don't have to have that randomly thrown out. SW is about archtypes, fathers and sons, mothers and daughters and heroes and villians.
  5. Plebeian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    If they can do it in a nonchalant manner that doesn't end up in people complaining about how gay the film is, then I don't care.
  6. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Personally, I don't want to see it. For me, Star Wars is an escape from the politics of the real world and with that being such a hot topic right now, I'd rather not have to deal with it in the GFFA.
  7. darksideyesplease Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2005
    star 4
    It's funny that your avatar is what it is and what I'm about to say, because in the scene your avatar comes from, that is probably the most intimate scene between a man and woman in all six movies. But as you say, it is very important to the story. Obviously Padme has to reveal she's pregnant so we can get Luke and Leia but it is also very important to establish how much Anakin loves and cares for Padme as that is the main focus of why he turns to the dark side.

    So yeah, just thought that was funny but we only get a couple of scenes like this and some in AOTC because his relationship with Padme is actually very centric and important to why he becomes Darth Vader. So in that case, it actually is needed.

    In the OT would it change anything if Han and Leia don't fall in love? Do the rebels loose on the forest moon of Endor if they don't have the hots for one another? Maybe by some weird butterfly effect or the argument that they work well together because they are in love... But Luke would have still went to save Han at the beginning of ROTJ whether or not Leia had romantic feelings for Solo.

    So I guess we do see two different cases. One were it directly effects the story and the other just adds to it.
  8. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    He's way into machines.
    zarkinfrood likes this.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I didn't ask, and he didn't tell.
  10. Jedi Mountain Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    'Now I also don't own a lightsaber and fight Sith, but I'd like to. So I can relate to that.'
    THANK YOU!!!!!
    Now this helps.....
  11. Ichor_Razor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2004
    star 2
    Gays are people too and I'd have no problem with them in the GFFA, especially since we know they already do such as Juhani in KOTOR.
    cwustudent likes this.
  12. adraco4 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    I see what you did there
  13. DARTHKANISS Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 1
    Oh my god...!!!
    No left wing softness, no sexuality preferences, no environmental messages, no recycling, no hippies and no religious messages....Just a Star Wars movie.
    jmf4, zarkinfrood, Padme501st and 2 others like this.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yeah, you don't want lefties and environmental messages involved with Star Wars.





    ...what?
    cwustudent likes this.
  15. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    That's really the only answer to my question that I would accept.

    But then you ask: would having gay characters hurt the movies? If it's done at all, it then all depends on how it's done. If it interferes with that sense of escapism you mention, then yes, it hurts the movies. Because what makes it escapism is partly that it's timeless; it isn't tied to current issues in any way other than the broadest possible interpretations of them. The moment you impose a social issue that is locked to one specific period - our present - on a story that by definition entirely transcends any specific period, and has become popular enough to transcend the viewpoint of any specific period, then you rob it of some of its timelessness. You make the films about the issue, not about the story or the characters we're meant to care about, and thus you instantly date the film, and a film that feels dated is, by definition, not timeless at all. Billy Dee Williams may have been black, and yes, his inclusion, in all likelihood, had been meant to silence critics who wondered where all the black people were in the previous film; but it had not been meant to make a comment on the subject of racism in the United States or any of the accompanying lesser issues that go with that. He was just there. To do any more than that would have derailed the film; by making him a fully-rounded character in every way but that, the films show that such issues were irrelevant - for his part, Williams himself believed the issue to be a non-issue and simply portrayed Lando as exactly that fully-rounded person, not as "the black character."

    So what, then, would be most likely to be done in the new films, should those who ask for gay characters get their wish? To give the questioner credit, Jedi Mountain himself wasn't expecting anything loud and in your face. So, in all likelihood, one of the major characters would not be LGBT, nor would any character they were involved with romantically, and historically it has only been through the main characters that significant plots about relationships, straight or otherwise, can be raised in Star Wars. That leaves the background characters, the dudes who appear in the crowd scenes. In any such scene, it would indeed be possible for a cut to a quick shot of a background character, or a fuzzy glimpse of one behind a main character in such a scene, either talking to or holding the hand of another background character of the same sex; but then one could easily argue that you'd probably get the same point across, and fit in the universe better, if it was an alien character appearing to evidence attraction and/or romantic love towards an alien of a different species - but of course that's not what you're saying; you're saying that if a LGBT audience member needs the validation you're discussing, then he/she has to see a human character like him/herself doing it, because what does it say to him/her if the best one can do for him/her is to show a crab-alien attracted to a squid-alien? He/she can't relate to that/it.

    But then the deeper question is: why should anyone assume that LGBT audience members need something that specifically speaks to their sexuality to find reasons to feel like these movies are applicable to their lives? Do they define themselves only by what gender they're attracted to? Or (as I believe) are they just like everyone else, and have far more complexity and richness to them than that? If Star Wars really has a message, it's that people are defined primarily by the choices, for good or for evil, that they make each day, and by the consequences that stem from those choices; and that such consequences can affect not just the person who made those choices, but others as well, for we are all connected; all else, when it comes to defining who a person is, is secondary, the stuff of "crude matter," rather than something that really speaks to the luminous being that is the totality of a person. I myself have no patience for people who define themselves strictly by one thing about them, particularly when that thing is in actuality of far lesser importance than whether said people are actually good people striving to be good. It's actually a terrible weakness of character for someone to so care about one aspect of oneself, and a minor one at that, that one only finds validation when that specific aspect has received validation, and takes offense when it's not to be found; the world is crawling with such people nowadays and we're all the poorer for it. If someone is gay, it's one thing for that someone to say that it would be nice to have a character represent this sub-group of our culture, even if it's a background character (which is likely all that Jedi Mountain was inquiring about); it's another for that same someone to say that if said character is not included, then he/she can't connect to Star Wars, or has a harder time connecting to it, than it would be if said character were included. Shouldn't Star Wars be able to reach an audience regardless of that audience's sexual orientation? If it can't, the problem is not with Star Wars, but with the audience.
    Valairy Scot and Bacon164 like this.
  16. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    If it does have gay characters, it should have them. If not, it doesn't really matter. There might be a love story in the trilogy, but that would probably be between man and woman.
    Personally, I'd welcome a gay love story as readily as I'd welcome a straight one, because it makes no difference to me whatsoever.





    "You love her. Don't you?"
    /LM
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  17. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    No body has ever had sex in a Star Wars movie.

    So without that how you know which characters are homosexual and which are hetrosexual?

    So unless every character's sexual orientation is spoken of at least once, I don't know how that would be achieved?
  18. Jedi Mountain Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    And I think with P. meister's post, this thread can now be closed. Thank you all .... and May the Force be with You!
    Last edited by Jedi Mountain, Nov 12, 2012
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  19. ThatWanFromStewjon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2012
    star 4
    Star Wars DOES reach an audience regardless of sexual orientation.

    My sister-in-law likes it plenty.
  20. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    I'm just going to be blunt about this. The Star Wars Universe was never about color or sexual preference. Wars based on race, yes. I like many of you enjoy Star Wars, we wouldn't be here if we didn't. The real question that many have asked is an important one, for our world, but not for Star Wars. However, sexual orientations are not the focus of these movies.
    Last edited by JediKnightOB1, Nov 12, 2012
  21. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    Ugh... Why is there always a question like this? Doesn't matter if you're on a sports, video game, anime, Star Wars, whatever-kind of forum. There's always gotta be some guy who thinks this sort of thing is actually relevant.
    Last edited by Death T, Nov 12, 2012
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  22. klooney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    We don't even know the genders of half the characters in the films, or anything about what they are into, such as Wookies or Jawas. Who knows what groups of Neimoidians do when they gather late at night or often at lunch hour behind closed doors. I doubt it will ever be shown on-screen by Disney.

    As far as gay audiences, I don't know how they've really been served any differently than straight or bi audiences. In six films we've been presented with scant romance, and Anakin had to procreate to have genetic progeny. Which makes me wonder; if beings of high midichlorian count are all recruited into the celibate order of Jedi, won't the universe soon run out of force-sensitive beings?
  23. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    The LGBT proportion of the population is, best answer anyone can manage, somewhere between 2-7% of the total. That is simply not a large grouping. Essentially, if we're being random, there's a 1 in 20 chance of any human character to demonstrate such traits (as an aside: while homosexual behaviors are observed across widely variant species lines on Earth, we simply cannot make such assumptions about alien trees of life, though it might be an interesting place to do something unusual). So it is simply unlikely, even if you took every potential major character and rolled a die, for a major character to be gay.

    Further, because LGBT traits are not apparent on outward appearance, the only way to present such a character without simply using an artificial out-of-universe declaration as in the Dumbledore situation is to have them engage in behavior that is incontrevertably an expression of homosexual or bisexual attraction, or to directly express being in a homosexual relationship. There are only a few cases where this can even happen.

    1. Make a major character involved in a romance gay.
    This is an extremely unlikely maneuver. While the odds would dictate it as a possibility, it would be seen as hijacking the overall plot of the film(s). It would also, presumably, detract from the audience appeal a romantic plotline is intended to produce, as heterosexual audience members are not really able to live vicariously through an expression of attraction that they don't experience.

    2. Showing an expression of homosexual attraction in the background.
    Pfluegermeister mentioned this somewhat extensively, but I would add, that regardless of the relative ease of showing such a scene, it would be distracting and produce contreversy regarding whatever specific shot was used. 'Are they gay?' type columns and the rest. Such a maneuver seems unlikely to go well, even if the hearts of Disney/Lucasfilm were int he right place by inserting it.

    3. Make a minor character gay, but not involved in a romance.
    This can be done by having a character sufficently important to have a speaking role, but not a huge player, make some comment that reveals they are gay within the existing flow of the sequence. The easiest way to do so is through marraige: by having a male character reference a husband or a female character reference a wife, as part of some other piece of commentary ie. 'I have to get back to by wife', 'I lost my husband on Alderaan', etc. This could be done, though it would be distracting and the precise kind of character to utilize in this fashion is rather strict. Ideally it would be someone who appears in multiple scenes, has a small number of lines, and builds sufficent rapport that the character is not defined by his/her sexuality.
    jmf4 likes this.
  24. Jedi Mountain Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    I thought this thread should be closed with P. meister's post above that was articulate and substantive as any post I have ever read on any of these forums. You may not agree, but give credit to the poster, who thought the frack out of his argument and made it sound coherent and heartfelt at the same time, a hard thing to do.

    Let's just leave it at that. However, if you want to whine about "why there are always questions like this", then start a new thread. When I am on a "sports, video game, anime, Star Wars, whatever-kind of form" I hear allot about the following: "he sucks" or "she sucks", the game "sucks" because it's not realistic enough, the anime sucks because it's "to dark" or 'too cartoonish", and Star Wars sucks, in general, because it's because Lucas lost faith or sold out to big business.

    The truth is, we live on a planet of plus five billion, and you should get used to some differing opinions. And who said I was a guy? You are truly not-so-relevant.... I still heart you, though!
  25. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2

    Thank you. I agree. That is why I love that picture of Anakin. It is his purest moment of sweetness and joy of his life. There's complete purity in it. He'd hid his truest self, that was so beautiful. He was afraid of showing that side and he let fear overwhelm him. Why do we fear being authentic so much? It's the same with all true love. He should have remembered that love conquers all.

    But the biggest criticism in the whole saga has also been their relationship, it has been panned so much, that people have done edits on the movie to cut it out. It's sad that GL felt that he was too ostracized to do anymore movies mainly due to love.

    My thing is I love TCW but it is too focused on fighting. There should be more; other relationships. I understand this is power play but I am tired of power tripping sometimes, and we all need a break from it. That was m favorite scene in ROTS, not Anakin on fire.
    Last edited by Jedifirefly5, Nov 12, 2012
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