Should victims of IRA terriosm be able to sue Americans?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Sir_Oninksalot, Aug 16, 2002.

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  1. Ramius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 3
    "Where did you get this, where did you get that", stop avoiding the issue and debate it! Jeez. The fact is there is a large group of American's, not the majourity of Americans however, that support the IRA and in some cases even provide funds for them.

    What is there to debate? Let them sue, I don't care. Just because you sue someone, doesn't mean you're going to win.

    And what's wrong with asking someone where they got their info from? He said 40 million Americans support the IRA, and I asked him where he got it from.
  2. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    ""Where did you get this, where did you get that", stop avoiding the issue and debate it!"

    Yes, why let things like facts and references get in the way of an informed debate?
  3. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Almost the entire first page is filled with people asking for the original poster for proof of the stuff hes saying. He already provided a bunch of links, what more do you want? Then theres guys just making a big joke out of it.

    It comes down to this question. If victims of the Sept. 11th attack can sue foriegn organizations, then why can't victims of IRA attacks?? A case against any american or any american organization wouldn't even reach the courts, im willing to bet. Its double standards. One rule for the Americans, one rule for everyone else.
  4. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I think that if American victims of terror are allowed to sue the funders of the terrorists who attacked them, then Irish victims of terror should be able to do the same. If that means suing America, then so be it. It's only fair, I think, and anything else would be a double standard.
  5. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Ummm.... anyone is allowed to sue.

    The proper question would be more along the lines of, "Should they win?"
  6. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    They should have an equal chance of winning as the 9/11 victims. There should be absolutely no differnces between the cases. Terrorism is terrorism. It doesn't matter how many people are killed, what the terrorists are fighting for, or who their victims are. Americans, Irish, it doesn't matter. It's not like an American life is worth more than an Irish life. It's the same crime, and it doesn't matter why it's committed. It's still a crime. Terrorism must not be allowed to be used as a form of political activism, for any reason. You can't make exceptions. "Well, the IRA is fighting for a just cause, so it's OK" is not acceptable. They may very well be, but their victims are just as innocent as those people in the WTC.
  7. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I agree completely with Admiral Thrawn. If the victims of IRA attacks wish to sue, and the people they sue are proven to support and/or fund the IRA, then the victims should definitely win the case. Any other result is, as Thrawn said, a double standard.
  8. Ramius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 3
    No one is saying they can't sue. As Rebecca said, you can sue anyone. If the evidence you say is there and some organizations are at fault, then you shouldn't be worried about losing. You seem to be getting upset at the U.S. for something they haven't done yet, which is denying to hear the case.

    I have yet to see any real evidence that there are charities in the U.S. that give money to the IRA specifically for weapons. One of the links Sir_Oninksalot gave was about Bloody Firday and the violence in Northern Ireland, which isn't proof that Irish Americans support the IRA. In the other link, I only see one charity could be considered funding terrorists:

    Ulster Unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson wants to see the strong measures extended to Noraid, which raises money for the republican party Sinn Fein, which itself has links with the Provisional IRA.

    "Without their funding, the IRA would not have nearly the same potential for violence that it currently has," he says.


    But as the article goes on, it states that Noraid says the money is for humanitarian aid:

    Noraid has openly expressed support for the IRA but says it gives money for humanitarian aid, and denies its donations are used for the purchase of arms.

    So unless there is any real evidence, it comes down to your word, saying they do give the money for weapons, and their word, saying the money is for humanitarian aid.

    The article also says that Sinn Fein has, of course, come in from the cold in recent years. It was de-designated as a foreign terrorist organisation by the US State Department in 1994 after the start of peace efforts in Northern Ireland - a move which allowed its leader, Gerry Adams, to travel to the US. which means that since Sinn Fein isn't seen as a terrorist group, the U.S. would have no reason to crack down on Noraid for giving them money.

    One link with a few paragraphs talking about America's connection with IRA is hardley proof that all Irish Americans support the IRA.
  9. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Let me expound upon my friend Rebecca191's statement, which read:
    Ummm.... anyone is allowed to sue.

    The proper question would be more along the lines of, "Should they win?"


    Where would one sue? In the US, we have the Custom's Court for foreigners trying to sue the US. Would one try the case in the ICC? The US is not a member of that body, so any judgement would be non-binding. The Hague? Once again, any judgement placed against the US would have no effect on the US. What would the World Court do to enforce their ruling? What agency enforces those decisions?

    If this were to proceed to trial, I think that it would be laughed out of court. Any lawyer worth his degree would argue for the defendants that all they did was provide money to an Irish organization, once they had done that, their control over how that money was spent, was out of their hands.
  10. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    The victims of the IRA should be able to sue the American people that have funded and supported the IRA for over 30 years.

    I also think that the American Government should stop the group 'Noraid' from funding and supporting the IRA,but i expect them to do nothing and continue to turn a blind eye,because the terrorism in Ireland and the U.K doesn't directly effect them !!!
  11. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    This is a very complex issue and one that no one here has the capability of fully undertstanding unless they have had first hand experience of the issue. However, I will give my very humble opinion on the matter.

    The victims of the troubles come from both sides of the troubles. Both Catholic/Republicans and Protenstant/Loyalists have suffered. Most of the victims have been innocent people. Even young soldiers who have no choice but to do the "Tour" are innocent but obvious targets.

    The victims of the IRA/Real IRA/Sin Fien should have the right to sue Noraid and similiar organisations. Those who contributed to Noraid knew deep down where that money was going and because of some ancestoral link feel they should help with the war against the occupiers (ie: The British). This is nonsense and just adds to the troubles.

    Saying that, the Republicans should also have the right to sue supporting organisations of the Loyalist terrorists in the British courts.

    It is worth noting that the planners of the Omagh bomb are having civil action taken against them and are being sued by the vistims as the criminal case against them has failed. These people live frugal lives but in fact have large sums of money and assets hidden away.

    One thing to remember: The leaders of the terrorists groups are gangters. They do not want peace and want the "war" to continue becasue it makes them feel powerful and makes them money!
  12. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    I'm just poking around and I found a point that bites close to my heart. Yes they SHOULD be allowed to sue BUT the problem is a) finding out exactly WHO to sue... watch the responibilty for shifting funds get buried faster than you can say "Enron". b) Collecting the funds... just wouldn't happen.

    I remeber living in Britain during the 80's, two things you were gaurenteed to see on the nightly news... Princess Di and the IRA...

    If England stays there, massive bloodshed... If England pulls out... Massive bloodshed... a vicious bloody circle, one death calls for revenge on the next....
    A loose loose situation that "Irish Americans" have no buisness in. (the closest they've ever been to Ireland in 3 generations is that nasty green shake that Mc'D's serves every March.)
    DB
  13. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    I am sick of people blaming the US for others problems. We need to return to isolationism and see how long it takes for Europe to erupt in a war again and come begging us for help putting out the problems that they cannot.

    Well last time I checked not all off Europe entered the war.

    If I can remember clearly Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Iceland etc. did not beg for the US to join the war...

    And of course US and UK begged some European countries, with no or little succes, to enter the war...
  14. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Well last time I checked not all off Europe entered the war.

    If I can remember clearly Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Iceland etc. did not beg for the US to join the war...


    I think you mean Ireland and if you did not, I did not know Iceland was considered part of Europe. And no, those countries decided to remain neutral. It is always better to have someone else fight your battle in your backyard than it is to fight it yourself.

    And of course US and UK begged some European countries, with no or little succes, to enter the war...

    Sure, it was their duty to fight a war. Did they actually THINK that Hitler would let them survive as independent nations? No, you go after the big boys first and then when they are beaten, gobble up the little guys.
  15. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Sure, it was their duty to fight a war. Did they actually THINK that Hitler would let them survive as independent nations? No, you go after the big boys first and then when they are beaten, gobble up the little guys.

    hmmm what about Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg & Denmark those are little guys. Hitler gobble them up before France...

    I think you mean Ireland and if you did not

    Ireland is a part of the etc. :)

    I did not know Iceland was considered part of Europe.

    yeah it is, you always learn something new on these boards. ;)

    THINK that Hitler would let them survive as independent nations? No

    you read that in Mein Kampf? If not how would you know that Hitler will not invade Iceland and all the other neutral countries.

    it was their duty to fight a war

    Those countries are also too weak to fight Germany off and there are different ways to fight a war. e.g Supplying your allies with recources, allow the Allies to build a base on their territory etc.
  16. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    I think that if the victims of the IRA can prove that a charity illegaly gave funds to terrorists, go ahead and sue. The charity would be punished or disbanded. To sue America or individual americans is unwarranted, but to stop such activities from a "charity" seems rational enough to me.

    Of course if NORAID is taken out then some new organization will most likely pop up though.
  17. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Ireland had and still has a crappy army anyway. It would have been a very very small contribution to the war effort. Anyway, alot of irishmen still joined the British Army, and fought in the war. Including my Grandfather.
  18. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    hmmm what about Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg & Denmark those are little guys. Hitler gobble them up before France...

    They were also closer than Spain.



    you read that in Mein Kampf? If not how would you know that Hitler will not invade Iceland and all the other neutral countries.

    How would I know that he did not intend to invade those other countries? I don't know. Do you know he did not intend to invade the neutral countries? If so, please list the source. To me, it seems implausible that a meglomanic such as he would be stopped when their was still land he could take.



    Those countries are also too weak to fight Germany off and there are different ways to fight a war.
    Yes there are, guerrilla fighting is one example.

    e.g Supplying your allies with recources, allow the Allies to build a base on their territory etc. What do you think would happen to their "neutral" status if they did that?
  19. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    guerrilla fighting is one example.

    Well IMO guerrilla fighting is only succesfull in jungle type environment.

    Spanish already failed the guerrilla type war far during the civil war...

    What do you think would happen to their "neutral" status if they did that?

    Strange enough they were still considered neutral...
  20. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Well IMO guerrilla fighting is only succesfull in jungle type environment.

    Worked wonders during the American revolution.
  21. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Well during the revolution they didn't had any tanks and airplanes...

    so... :p

    I never knew that the American Revolution was considerd guerilla warfare...
  22. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I never knew that the American Revolution was considerd guerilla warfare...


    It was. Funny 'eh?
  23. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Look up the beginning of the Revolution at the Battle of Lexington and Concorde. The first showdown began with British soldiers taking places in the classic two line format where they would kneel and fire, then the second rank would advance, kneel and fire while the first reloaded. This would continue until one side was routed and withdrew. After the initial exchange, the British withdrew to Boston, and on the way lost over 250 redcoats to guerrilla style tactics from Colonists who fought from anything they could use for cover: barns, trees, stone walls, etc.
  24. PingOneDown Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2002
    Sir_Oninksalot, I could leave u with thousands of examples of people that have lost their lives in Irish history, and unjustifiably at that! But I wont, because I believe its time to move on. Although I am not a supporter of today?s IRA I believe they were once necessary to free Irish people from British oppression. So therefore I do not believe American aid groups should be sued, because if you sue them, then you must also sue Loyalist originations, which continue to this day to target incident catholic people. They also have strong links with Far Right originations like the English Combat 18, which just shows the bigotry we are dealing with! Many people have lost their lives in this war and I hope no more will die. Your post was very one sided as you did not mention any crimes committed by any Loyalist originations. You also talked about the Omagh bomb, which was carried out by the Real IRA, an attack that killed both Catholic and Protestant people. Although the Real IRA is a splinter group from the IRA, they have never, been founded by any American aid group. I?m sure u got your sources were also as one sided as your posts and I believe you should read about your own history before creating such a topic!!!
  25. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Warning:

    Stay on topic and keep the discussion civil.
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