Lit Shouldnt the Cloned Palpatine have recruited Grand Admiral Thrawn?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Matthew78, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

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    definitely! and Thrawn prepared well for the final showdown when the Emperor would show himself. He probably even counted on the New Republic siding with him in a temporary truce until the Emperor would be defeated if he would not be able to finish that before he revealed himself. wouldn't even surprise me if some of the later conspiring people had once been in Thrawns camp.

    Ultimately, Thrawn had recruited Joruus C'baoth to recruit and train forcesensitives for HIS empire. Thrawn tried to recruit Mara Jade, tried to have Joruus recruit wisdomhungry Luke indirectly. He got his Jediclones in the UR where still many questions are unanswered like how did he get the DNA samples? Kam Solusar was an Emperor's darksider servant and thus his DNA probably stored in Mount Tantiss, like that of Mara etc.
    Maybe he also contacted Lumiya and Jax, and informed them about the Cloneperor so that explains how they'd know and why they conspired to overthrow Palpatine instead of flocking to his side. Thrawn played them all against each other. He planted pockets of clonetroops like the Fel clones all across the galaxy to come to his call with surprise to the enemy. Even himself he cloned to return should he be betrayed or killed. A backup army + a backup self. A pity that failed.

    So ultimately Thrawn prepared not only with military and strategy but also with Forceusers of his own, as well as on purpose trying to get territory, ressources and the RIM for his empire, knowing and avoiding the Deep Core for obvious reasons. The NR would be trapped between Palpatines and Thrawns forces only left one choice if they want to survive. Side with Thrawn so they can be strong enough to win against Palpatine, as well as be a puffer to buy Thrawns Rimpire time to get stronger, should they be stupid enough not to accept the truce.

    And he sure collected lots of Ysalamir.. not just because of Joruus or Luke. He sure knew about the Cloneperor and prepared well with all roads covered.. except one certain Noghri..

    the only art one can not see and study is stealth after all, and there Noghri excell
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Jun 25, 2013
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  2. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

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    Interesting theory. A shadow chess game between Thrawn and Palpatine... That the Emperor won, naturally. (Thank you, DESB!)
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  3. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

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    more like a draw since both died.. palpatine lived longer, sure, but thrawn could have come back in Visions of the Future.
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  4. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

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    The DESB indicates that Palpatine played a role in Thrawn's murder. Which makes sense; while Thrawn is the superior military tactician, Sidious is (despite Zahn's posturing) the far more accomplished strategist.

    Hence why I say that he won the chess game if your theory holds.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Jun 25, 2013
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  5. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

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    Keep in mind that Zahn didn't have the PT to go by when he wrote TTT.
  6. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

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    I do. But Palpatine's appearance in ROTJ was enough to establish his immense skill as a manipulator and strategist that Zahn didn't take into account, so eager was he to exaggerate Thrawn's importance.
  7. Mechalich Jedi Knight

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    I really don't think we can say that Thrawn was aware of a reborn Palpatine - at least not in any confirmed sense. What Thrawn did assuredly know is that the New Republic had not taken Byss and had not accounted for its - very substantial - military assets. he also was astute enough to understand the power structure of Byss and recognize that whomever had taken control of that system was surely force sensitive. In many ways it functionally amounts to the same thing - since not all members of the Empire acknowledged Palpatine's call even though it was legitimate.

    What Thrawn almost certainly was not aware of include Palpatine's massively increased dark side abilities circa Dark Empire, and presumably the existence of the Galaxy Gun - which represents the ultimate in game-changing superweapons.
  8. Havac Former Moderator

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    I sincerely doubt that Thrawn knew Palpatine was on Byss. He pursued Force-sensitives because they had tactical uses in terms of Force coordination and he lacked his own assets (the indication that therefore the mainstream Empire was bereft of Force-sensitives by 9 ABY deserves a fuller examination, I think). He went to Wayland to pick up a Force-sensitive and to obtain technology that would give him a tactical edge against the New Republic. None of that has any bearing on Palpatine. We already have the full explanation, and his actions don't make a great deal of sense if he genuinely feared Palpatine. The explanation is thin. It's like declaring that the New Republic secretly knew that the Yuuzhan Vong were going to invade because they built up their fleet and made peace with the Empire in advance of the invasion. No, they built up their fleet because they were an emergent galactic power that had to police the galaxy and fight the Empire, and they made peace with the Empire because the Empire wanted peace and was small and powerless and the New Republic was sick of fighting it. Taking fully explained actions and projecting a patchy set of secret motivations onto them is just an exercise in silliness.

    I'm also not convinced that Thrawn would have even known of Byss. Palpatine was building those fleets secretly; only the highest-level Imperial officials complicit in his scheming, such as Dangor, Pestage, and possibly Isard, would know. The assumption is that they were lost in the chaos of defeat and warlordism. Thrawn was never around for those years; he was out in the Unknown Regions. He wouldn't have been there to analyze things in real time and pick up on more data, or to notice anything to be suspicious of and give him reason to dig in. He also wouldn't know that Byss was an unaccounted-for fortress world, since it wasn't really a powerful fortress world beforehand; it was Palpatine's private vacation paradise. Well-guarded, yes, but not the massive hardware depot Palpatine turned it into. That only happened after Palpatine started gathering resources in secret. Thrawn certainly wouldn't have just known that such a massive percentage of the Empire's resources were sitting at Byss unaccounted-for. It's just not a compelling theory.

    You're missing the point; Palpatine has those assets to unleash when he's ready, not to give to someone else. If he's got the assets and he's confident that he's going to win, what does he need some conventional commander for? He's moved on. He's all about Force storms and Dark Side Elite and superweapons now; his regime is an insane dark side theocracy preparing to brute-force-conquer and enslave the galaxy. What place does Thrawn have in that? Why would Thrawn go along with it? What does Palpatine need Thrawn for to accomplish that? Palpatine's not particularly interested in bringing Thrawn back to Byss. He's certainly not interested in handing over his assets to Thrawn so that Thrawn can secure the galaxy. When that's the case . . . why not just let Thrawn do whatever he can whittling away at the enemy while Palpatine bides his time?
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  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    I think Zahn may have been underwhelmed by Palpatine's behaviour in RoTJ- as well as his "trap" that ended up not working, thanks to Ewoks.
  10. Mechalich Jedi Knight

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    I don't know, that all depends on elements of timing - namely what was constructed on Byss and when it was made. The vast development of the Deep Core was common knowledge, even if details were scant, and moving 19 billion people to a system with a previous population of basically zero draws attention even in the Star Wars galaxy. . That probably would have shown up in reporting that Thrawn, and all the other Grand Admirals for that matter, had access to prior to 4 ABY.

    The resources diverted to Byss were massive, enough to build 5 Star Dreadnaughts, the Galaxy Gun, and the shipyards necessary to construct them at minimum. Those pretty much had to have started being moved prior to 4 ABY, conceivably many years prior.

    Frankly this massive diversion of resources has never been all that well-accounted for in any source, as it is difficult to imagine how such a level of resource diversion could have been hidden as secret projects. Even if most of the resources used in Byss construction were largely harvested from nearby systems in the Deep Core (possible, if unlikely) it just seems strange that a secret passing through literally billions of hands didn't slip out more concretely to the New Republic or really anyone.

    I suppose that means falling back on broad-spectrum mental manipulation by Palpatine, much as Thrawn himself hypothesized. We can use that explanation to hand-wave over most irregularities in Imperial activities so long as Palpatine was in the picture anyway, no reason why Thrawn should be unaffected.

    The citadel Inquisitorious was on Prakith, also in the Deep Core and way behind enemy lines. If the majority of post-Endor Inquisitors retreated to that world (or Byss) because they were highly unpopular with the brass, that would have put them way behind enemy lines and presumably out of the reach of Thrawn, who apparently did not have the requisite Deep Core navigation data to get there.

    Speaking more broadly, I personally think there's room in the Imperial history books for some kind of late-day purge of many Force-users conducted at some point either pre or post Endor. Possibly the destruction of the Prophets of the Dark Side by Lumiya and Carnor Jax was only part of a larger purge of Imperial force-users beyond the Deep Core.
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  11. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Thrawn never tried to account for the missing Imperial warships -- he seemed singularly uninterested in the sort of hardware that could take on SSDs, nor did he even try to acquire a single one from the warlords out there. He didn't try to unify the other warlords, nor did he do anything that would adequately prepare for the Emperor's forces to emerge against him. His war machine was built for quick strikes against the Rebellion, not for heavy battles against the cream of the Imperial Navy.
  12. Havac Former Moderator

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    Thrawn would certainly know that Byss was, pre-Endor, Palpatine's resort world and had many resources invested in guarding it, as well as some production capacity, but I'm not sure he would have known the full extent of it. And even so, the massive buildup, the stockpiling of firepower and manpower and resources, came post-Endor, as Palpatine quietly siphoned units away from the Empire in the chaos and into the Deep Core where he built up for his eventual emergence. That's what Thrawn wouldn't have known about -- not that Byss had been Palpatine's private stronghold, but that a significant percentage of the Imperial war machine was secretly hanging around in the Deep Core.

    Knowing that Palpatine had stuck some hardware on Byss that Thrawn can't get to anymore doesn't indicate anything about knowing that Palpatine would be coming back; it would be the post-Endor diversion of forces to Palpatine that could be that signal, but Thrawn wasn't even in the known galaxy for the vast majority of it, and I'm sure Ars Dangor and the others were quite good at hiding their tracks in any case.

    Many of the dark siders no doubt ended up recalled to the Deep Core to serve Palpatine, but it raises some interesting questions about who and how and why, and what the Empire at large thought was happening. Was Palpatine's network of darksiders so secret that no one but the very highest levels, the people like Dangor who were in on it, would fully realize that they had gone missing? Certainly for the Emperor's Hands, you could make that case. But the Inquisitorius was a pretty big organization; it can't simply up and disappear. And even if you pull as many people as possible to Byss, there's the odd fact that Palpatine seems to run out of Force-sensitives awful quickly in Dark Empire, and is reduced to imbuing non-Force-sensitives with the Force to get a cadre of dark side servants.

    Do a ton go warlord? I think an expansion of Lumiya's purge would be a pretty good way to go. There's also always a chance to give Kyle Katarn some more to do between Jedi Knight and the JAT. But I think there are still a lot of interesting questions left -- what is the response of the Empire to mass losses of darksiders? Do they know the extent of darksiders in Palpatine's Empire? Is there a big tension between the mainline Imperial establishment and the darksiders who are used to being in charge under their master that's being exploited here? Where do they end up? Specifically, where are established survivors like Cronal and Tremayne during the process? Is Thrawn's need for C'baoth more a matter of not having any extant Force-sensitives who can pull off the coordination aspect rather than not having any Force-sensitives at all? This could really probably sustain its own thread.
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  13. darklordoftech Jedi Grand Master

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    As I said, Zahn lacked the PT to judge Palpatine by.
  14. rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master

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    Thrawn has always been overrated to me.
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  15. Sable_Hart Jedi Master

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    Yeah and I was underwhelmed by Thrawn's performance at Bilbringi, assassinated by a bodyguard he'd betrayed, deceived, and enslaved (along with said bodyguard's entire race). No way THAT could backfire, eh?

    No doubt Sidious's cockiness in ROTJ got the better of him... As did Thrawn's. But Zahn was apparently shrewd enough to understand that a fatal blunder doesn't retroactively erase one's prior accomplishments.

    As it was, while Endor was testament to the dangers of hubris, it was also proof that Sidious could dupe the entirety of he Rebel High Command and its famed personages (Ackbar, Mothma, Han, Lando, etc.), outplay Vader, and drive a guy he'd just met closer to the dark side than he's ever been with mere taunts.

    I think there's ample evidence in ROTJ for Zahn to have reached the same conclusion.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Jun 26, 2013
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  16. Vialco Jedi Master

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    I agree completely. Thrawn is nothing compared to the sheer genius of HIMS.
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  17. fett 4 Jedi Grand Master

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    One of the most unintentional ironical and amusing things in the Hand of Thrawn books, is that Zahn uses Mara to ridicule the idea of Palps reborn, while at the same time having all the other characters treat seriously (and in Han and Lando literally quiver in fear) the idea of Thrawn reborn/return.
    He then to hammer the point home, spells out Thrawn is the bigger threat by having Mara explain how Thrawn was 2 steps ahead to Palpatines 1.

    Side note in Choices of One Zahn does have Thrawn tell Palpatine to beware the Ewoks, which of course Palpatine dismisses :p
    Last edited by fett 4, Aug 18, 2013
  18. FTeik Jedi Grand Master

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    Considering what happened the last time an imperial leader returned from the dead, their reactions are quite understandable.

    Jealousy and bitterness. Remember Thrawn at least attempted to recruit her back to the empire in DFR. Her beloved emperor didn't even bother to call her back to his side on Byss. Mara clearly suffers from delusions of grandeur, because she thinks she is "the only Emperor's Hand", so if the guy in DE doesn't call for his most valuable servant, then he can't be the real thing.

    We also learn in Zahn's later works, that Kinman Doriana, who according to Voss Parck Palpatine attemtped to replace with GA Thrawn, Darth Vader AND Mara Jade (Mara Jade on the same level as Thrawn and Vader [face_rofl]) was nothing more, than a glorified errand-boy and that the fifteen well-armed ships with the best crews available dispatched to destroy Outbond Flight - and who Thrawn so awesomely destroyed - are anything but that. So Parck is clearly buttering Jade up and spin-doctoring a lot of events to suit his purposes. The ability to manipulate information is one of Thrawn's greatest skills after all.

    Concerning the topic of the OP: There was no need for Palpatine to call Thrawn back. If Thrawn wins on his own (and until Bilbringi it looked exactly like that), Palpatine can simply step in and order Thrawn to be a good soldier and hand the power back (and keep in mind, that Thrawn controlled only the military, not the bueraucracy of the empire). If Thrawn refuses, he will be crushed like a bug. Should Thrawn lose against the NR, pity, but can't be changed, lets unleash World Devastators, GalaxyGun and armadas of warships.

    There is also no need for Thrawn or many of the top-brass of the empire to be aware of what happens in the DeepCore or the build up taking place. The empire and its intelligence-apperatus control the flow of information and if they could keep the construction of something like DS2 over half a year secret for the most part, they should have no problems with a twenty year build up of the Deep Core. I'm not talking about the colonisation by the imperial elites, but the industrial development of the region.

    As a last, there is no need for Palpatine to have a hand in Thrawn's assassination. Thrawn didn't know, that the Skywalker-twins were Vader's children (which gave Leia the opening to negotiate with the Noghri) and it was Thrawn himself, who caused that decon-droid to behave suspiciously by turning it into a spy-unit.

    As for Voren Na'al's account in DESB, lets not forget the good Voren is not the most reliable source of information. He is clearly aggrandizing Palpatine - who is such a mastermind, that he has to be responsible for everything bad that happens, including the death of a five year old Gran in a speeder-accident on Malastare - and consequently aggrandizing the NR, which managed to defeat such an evil.
  19. jSarek VIP

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    I will once again remind everyone that, while there are boxed vignettes mentioning Voren in the DESB, the text itself is not attributed to him, unlike, say, the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook. So while it may be him, it's by no means confirmed.

  20. FTeik Jedi Grand Master

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    I think one should also consider the possibility, that Palpatine - from whose point of view those quotes are - is also delusional at that point of time. Reading through HttE and the accompanying sourcebooks, Thrawn never expected to meet an insane guardian for the MountTantiss-storehouse. Same about the thing with the decon-droid. That not only lead to Thrawn being killed, but it also cost the empire the Noghri. If Palpatine would have wanted Thrawn dead, he could have had that a lot easier as evidenced by Mara's infiltration of the Chimera in DFR.
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    If
    If Thrawn was such an all knowing mastermind how did he die to a knife in the back lol.
  22. CeiranHarmony Jedi Master

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    he did forsee that.. he just did not know when it would happen. hence his clone and some people of the Empire of the Hand knowing he will return. he just was unlucky that Luke and Mara stumbled upon the clone by accident.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    When did he "foresee" it? From my knowledge he wasn't Force-sensitive.
  24. blackmyron Jedi Grand Master

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    I think you've missed the dark humor of the final words of Thrawn. He didn't truly understand the Noghri because their "artwork" was their killing methods.

    The clones were a backup plan. Thrawn was never intending to be killed, but wasn't supremely arrogant enough to believe there was no chance he'd fail.

    @Havac - I can't imagine that Thrawn didn't regard with suspicion that build-up of forces in Byss, or at least how numbers of ships were "missing" - this was a guy who tracked down a lost fleet from the OR days. And he was well-aware that Palpatine had access to cloning technologies. I don't think he knew, but he must have had his suspicions.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    In The Essential Guide to Warfare, Imperial revisionist historians theorise that it was Palpatine who called Thrawn back from the Unknown Regions in the first place.