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Showing the true power of Anakin and Mace

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by yoshifett, Sep 16, 2005.

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  1. Chosen_One1

    Chosen_One1 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2005
    And Anakin wasn't emotional when he betrayed Mace? He was "level-headed"?

    lol, that's exactly my point. In a entirely different scenario - perhaps. In the movie's scenario - not in a million lightyears.


    Level-headed in his regard. Anakin always fights with emotion, he just lost control of it on Mustafar. I don't think Anakin ever really liked Mace anyway he was just another Jedi. He would have had the same state of mind he had when he killed all the Jedi at the Temple. He wouldn't have thought about it until after Mace was dead.
     
  2. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    I just read something that I wasnt aware of. In the shooting script Mace tried to deflect Sidious lightning with his one good hand but failed:

    As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
    The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.


    I just found that interesting. :p


     
  3. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    "Do or do not. There is no try."

    Trying to deflect lightning won't do you any good if you don't succeed. In the ROTJ novelisation, it claims that Luke tried to deflect the lightning.
     
  4. jedi_jacks

    jedi_jacks Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 17, 2005
    personally i agree with sinister, probably because i dont see any big conflict or* contradiction in the jedi philosophy or with yoda.

    yoda saves anakin and obi-wan out of compassion, not* out of need.

    the easy thing to do would hav been to let them go and get dooku, but it would hav also been the darkside way. we even hav the benefit of knowing that catching dooku wouldnt hav ended the war, so we know yoda did the right thing by not getting greedy.

    anakin is different. with sidious he says, "i need him," not "this is the compassionate thing to do." earlier anakin wants to save padme, but its out of a desperate need too. you dont see anakin saying, "stop!" for the clonetrooper that fell with padme do you? yoda makes decisions not on what he wants, but what he thinks is right.

     
  5. r8hitman

    r8hitman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    I cant remember that being obvious. Yoda sensed Dooku and a problem occuring. He went to its source and found Dooku. He then attempted to extract information from Dooku. Dooku realised that Yoda wouldnt be beaten and created a diversion. Yoda saved Anakin and Obi Wan because it was more important that they lived at this time than it was in capturing Dooku.

    Well just from watching the film, it seemed obvious to me.

    Seems to me like he knows EXACTLY what's going on.

    Right when their argument was over Yoda says "hmmmm" as if he's been eavesdropping.

    What's NOT obvious AT ALL is that he went to get info from Dooku.

    Just based on the film alone and Yoda's reaction after Obi/Anakin's argument, you would assume that he went out there because of Anakin and Obi-Wan....NOT anything to do with Dooku.

    If you dont think that's the case then give me some evidence "ON SCREEN" that shows Yoda trying to get info from Dooku, because the film shows the exact opposite, the film shows him not giving a rat's ass about Dooku.

    He didnt go after him when he initially escaped, and he didnt go after him once he saved Obi-Wan and Anakin....he had accomplished what he planned on doing.

    Dooku wasnt his primary reason for going out there, period.
     
  6. Vaeron

    Vaeron Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2005
    Not being repetitive at all... I've seen lots of posts on different threads saying that Anakin killed Mace, and that is so far from the truth I sometimes wonder what movie people were watching. Anakin was only trying to save Palpatine's life, because he believed Palpatine was out of juice.
     
  7. Darth-Bone

    Darth-Bone Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 8, 2002
    Well then, we'll agree to disagree.

    To me it's more than obvious - In Empire he says to Luke that sacrificing friends for the greater good is necessary - a lesson he preached all along and was reinforced to him in the Dooku fiasco.

    In the ROTS novel, Yoda says to Obi Wan he'd let him die if it meant ending the war.

    Well, capturing Dooku could have ended the war (we the audience know better, but Yoda didn't) , as he was the leader, but he chose to ignore his own teachings and look what happened after.
     
  8. DS_Emp_Viper

    DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 30, 2001
    He went to get Dooku, he did not got to "rescue" Anakin and Obi-Wan. "If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will". This shows that Yoda wants to either capture/kill Dooku. Never does he say "If killed Obi-Wan and Anakin are, no hope do we have". He went to capture Dooku, but he didn't follow his own rules of letting people "go"
     
  9. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2003
    "What have i DONE?!?"

    See, but now you're changing the entire purpose of that vital scene; instead of a conflicted and panicking Anakin, we get a calculated coldblooded Anakin. It completely strips the scene of its power.

    Imagine if instead of Vader picking up the Emperor and throwing him down the shaft; we'd have gotten a Vader who grabbed his lightsaber and started duelling it out with Sidious.

    Doesn't work, does it?

    - O_F
     
  10. brobertsumc

    brobertsumc Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2005
    I like the way the scene played out, but I would have added some indication that Anakin's regret over killing Mace gave way over time. In other words, he stops being sorry he did it.

    How would I do this? I suppose that I would have added the following progression: 1. After Ani turns, Sidious gives him a red lightsaber as part of the "knighting" ceremony; 2. Massacre at the Jedi temple; 3. After the massacre, we see one last shot of Ani/Vader in the Jedi temple, placing his old blue saber on Mace's seat in the council chamber for Obi-wan and Yoda to find later as a gesture of defiance.

    So, in short, I guess I would leave Anakin's act against Mace as it was, but then show that he ceases to regret doing it as he goes further over to the darkness.
     
  11. thechozn1

    thechozn1 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 15, 2005
    I think the whole point is that he never completely gives himself to the darkside. That's why he's sitting their balling on Mustafar. I'm glad that we continue to see conflict within Anakin. It's what sets up his ability to return later.
     
  12. Chosen_One1

    Chosen_One1 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2005
    See, but now you're changing the entire purpose of that vital scene; instead of a conflicted and panicking Anakin, we get a calculated coldblooded Anakin. It completely strips the scene of its power.

    Imagine if instead of Vader picking up the Emperor and throwing him down the shaft; we'd have gotten a Vader who grabbed his lightsaber and started duelling it out with Sidious.

    Doesn't work, does it?


    Anakin is in turmoil after Mace is dead, that part doesn't need to change. Anakin could kill him in rage and then the "what have I done?" scene could still work. I think it would have added some weight to all the Anakin hype that we don't see much of and it would have been a sweet fight.
     
  13. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2005
    I wasn't around Master MaceTheCouncillor........*handshake* thank you for explaining my stance for me in my absence.

    *salute*
     
  14. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Yes Commander, that made perfect sense as far as I can see. I think this is a good point.

    But hear me out, think about the fact that people were so convinced that his turn was too fast; if he went for the block, and then he and Mace started dueling, what would Anakin do? Fight of course! This punk Mace has been dogging you (From Anakin's perspective, I'm not saying that I think Mace is punk, lest I piss off the faithful [:D])

    This fight would be intense, but I suppose story wise it doesn't make that much sense. It's a fanboy dream I guess. Now that I've said that, a fanboy is going to say that this is lame and not their dream [face_beatup]
     
  15. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2005
    Master Yoshifett I'm on your side along with everyone here in wanting to see Anakin duel Mace before he turned from a Fan's perspective.

    I would have paid Lucas hard earned cash for that duel being added as well as extended versions of ALL the other duels in the film. I also agree with you as always:p that adding the Mace/Anakin duel would have done a great deal to show both of their true POWER in greater detail.

    I was just pointing out that such a contest logicly would dictate that Mace wins out over Anakin. But, then again I see nothing wrong with Mace beating up on Anakin and Sidious saving his sorry butt[face_devil]......however IMO that scenario would make us seriously question WHY Sidious would even want Anakin as an apprentice(since NOTHING on-screen suggest he knows anything about the prophecy). I mean Sidious wants Anakin for Anakin's potential in POWER, but if Anakin fails against Mace in front of Sidious....that makes Sidious look kind of moronic in picking apprentices. Kenobi beating Anakin was a BIG surprise to Sidious........I'm sure Palpatine thought Obi-Wab was toast when Anakin ran across him.

    The flipside is that if Anakin beats Mace.....it makes George Lucas into a liar regarding his fabled "Big Three" in Episode III of Mace/Yoda/Sidious........o_O
     
  16. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2003
    Anakin is in turmoil from the moment he gets his first dream; remember, this isn't the same insane Anakin we see on Mustafaaaaaaarrrrrr. This is still Jedi-Anakin. Anakin's not angry at Windu; he's not in "rage-mode", that's the entire point. He doesn't want to hurt him, he doesn't want to help a Sith Lord; but he has to.

    What you want is what we have Anakin vs. Obi for, that's ragemode Anakin right there; the fact that he loses doesn't diminish how powerful he is, it just makes him a dumbass :p

    Would it be a sweet fight? Of course. But it would be far less tragic. Again, imagine changing RotJ ending this way.

    - O_F
     
  17. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    It should have been done ROTJ style, with Mace going to quickly kill Sidious with one blow,and Anakin block it right in time,leading to a small duel.

    I think there originally was a small duel, its in the ROTS game. Sam L. Jackson did have to do reshoots too.

    GL probably figured there were too many lightsaber duels in the movie already, though I dont know how thats possible.
     
  18. Chosen_One1

    Chosen_One1 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2005

    I see what you mean, it's just wishful fanboy thinking[face_peace].
     
  19. Chosen_One1

    Chosen_One1 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2005
    The flipside is that if Anakin beats Mace.....it makes George Lucas into a liar regarding his fabled "Big Three" in Episode III of Mace/Yoda/Sidious........

    Actually it doesn't. Just because Mace can hang with Sidious doesn't mean he can hang with Anakin. Obi couldn't hang with Dooku but he could with Anakin. It's all about how you match up.
     
  20. jedi_jacks

    jedi_jacks Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 17, 2005
    no way anakin could defeat mace windu without some help from sidious. anakin couldnt defeat mace windu, yoda, or sidious even on his best day until he got at least a little older. if he did defeat mace windu, then the loss to obi-wan would hav been an even bigger surprise. hmmm i wonder, do you think obi-wan was afraid to face anakin, probably not.

    Darth-Bone
    In the ROTS novel, Yoda says to Obi Wan he'd let him die if it meant ending the war.

    Well, capturing Dooku could have ended the war (we the audience know better, but Yoda didn't), as he was the leader, but he chose to ignore his own teachings and look what happened after.

    DS_Emp_Viper
    He went to capture Dooku, but he didn't follow his own rules of letting people "go."


    im sorry, but yoda is not a hypocrite, at least not here. look closely, you dont sacrifice someone for the potential to end the war! yoda and obi-wan are talking about more absolute situations, if you knew for sure, a situation more like vader's in RotJ. yoda made the lightside decision. the darkside decision would be to get caught up in the action and leave your friends behind, for only a chance at ending the war (which we know wouldnt hav ended anything). only with that mistake would dooku really accomplished anything. viper, yoda didnt need to save anakin and obi-wan, anakin needed to save sidious, thats what i think yoda was talking about.

    (warning: friendly joking here)
    im sorry yoda failed you in the short term, but let go of your hate. it clouds your vision, yoda is wise and generous with his knowledge to those who listen.
    ;)
     
  21. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2004
    I think if Anakin fought against Mace like he did against Dooku, Mace would have lost BOTH of his hands.
     
  22. Chosen_One1

    Chosen_One1 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2005
    no way anakin could defeat mace windu without some help from sidious. anakin couldnt defeat mace windu, yoda, or sidious even on his best day until he got at least a little older. if he did defeat mace windu, then the loss to obi-wan would hav been an even bigger surprise. hmmm i wonder, do you think obi-wan was afraid to face anakin, probably not.

    Like yoshifett said, if Anakin fought Mace the way he fought Dooku, Mace would be toast. Against Obi-Wan Anakin lost control of his emotions because he was fighting his former master, against Dooku he was focused and whooped him.
     
  23. jedi_jacks

    jedi_jacks Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 17, 2005
    EDIT:
    yoshifett
    I think if Anakin fought against Mace like he did against Dooku, Mace would have lost BOTH of his hands.


    give anakin 2-5 years to improve his skillz, then yes, i agree.

     
  24. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2003
    You're welcome.
     
  25. yoshifett

    yoshifett Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 17, 2004
    I don't think he needs the time. HE DOMINATES DOOKU, who happens to be one of two duelist, according to the OS that defeated Mace while he was still in the Jedi Order. In his duel with Dooku, Anakin, in my opinion (I started a lengthy thread on this) demonstrates the most impressive skills with a saber that we ever see from a Jedi in the entire Saga. If you rewatch this scene, it's amazing to see Anakin's power and skill. And he fights that way to protect his two mentors. Imagine if he was fighting to protect his mentor and Padme! I think he would have been even more focused than he was in the Dooku duel. I think he could have taken Mace. I'm not saying he most certainly would have, but after what he did to Dooku, it's absolutely possible.
     
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