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Shroud Of Turin: Real or fake?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Chris2, Oct 15, 2002.

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  1. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    The Shroud Of Turin has often been venerated as the burial cloth of Jesus. It has been subjected to numerous scientific tests, which have been fairly inconclusive. So is it the true burial cloth? Well, maybe not, if we weigh this evidence.

    1. The shroud is inconsistent with the Gospel's burial accounts of Jesus.

    2. There is no menton of any shroud bearing the image of Jesus in acts or the epistles.

    3. The Shroud is not mentioned anywhere until at least the sixth century; and not properly located until the Thirteenth. The sixth century is the time when the traditional, classic artistic images of Jesus-long hair with a beard-first appeared, interestingly enough. On a side note, it was considered a sin for ancient Jews to have long hair unless they were of a certain tribe.

    4. Letters dating back to the thirteenth century seem to state that the shroud is in fact a Catholic forgery, in the same way other holy relics have been exposed as forgeries.

     
  2. TeeBee

    TeeBee Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2002
    Everything I've heard about it recently suggests that it's a fake, only about 600+ years old. I actually just read about how we date stuff in a Nat'l Geographic and it was one of the items 'dated'.
     
  3. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    This page states the shroud's been dated to the early-to-mid 14th century.

    But do we really have to call it "a Catholic forgery?" For one thing, there were no Protestants in 1355. The distinction seems unnecessary. There's also no evidence of deliberate deception by the entire Catholic Church.
     
  4. Whimper

    Whimper Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 1999
    I read an interesting book on the Shroud of Turin, years ago. Verdict on the Shroud was the title. Although it's conclusiosn weren't to be trusted, the book itself was an excellent read. Great for some cultural anthropology.

    Anyways- I don't really think there's a question any more that the Shroud isn't two thousand years old. Carbon dating and all that. What I'm interested in is how the image was created. The books I've read on the subject say that the markings on the shroud are most consistent with a fast-burn, as opposed to a slow burn, a dye-process, or paint of some kind.

    What do you think?
     
  5. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    I believe it is authentic.

    I have a video from Discovery Channel that sheds light on the carbon dating question. The reason it dated 600 years is because of microscopic/organic material present on the surface of the Shroud that was that age.

    The actual fibers and some of the plant material (used in the burial) are dated to 1st century Judea.

    In addition, no artistic technique existed in the ancient world to create such an image visible in the negative as such.
     
  6. Jedi_Master_Mom

    Jedi_Master_Mom Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 29, 2002
    On the Discovery channel I saw one person using medieval techniques create a convincing duplicate. It was basically taking a statue of a face, putting a piece of fabric over and then painting it. Anyways, I?m still up in the air about it, but lean more to a medieval forgery.
     
  7. Darth_Reign

    Darth_Reign Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2001
    I don't think it was the burial cloth of Christ.

    The image of Christ's face is consistent with the mainstream Christian European images of Jesus, which is most likely an inaccurate portrayal.

    I think it is a fake, but in being a fake is also one of the greatest works of art ever produced. The forgery is truely magnificent and would have taken a master to create. Donatello and Raphael's names (No not the ninja turtles, the artists) have often been brought up whilst discussing who may have created the shroud.

    It is still fascinating none the less.
     
  8. Jon_Snow

    Jon_Snow Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2001
    Leonardo?s name has also been linked to the shroud. Some scholars have him being in the right place and time playing with some techniques that could have created the shroud.
     
  9. Tukafo

    Tukafo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2002
    I never knew that there was even a discussion about this. From everything I ever read about the shroud it is pretty clear that it's atotal fake. It's like the photo of the Loch Ness monster or the face on Mars
     
  10. Ariana Lang

    Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 1999
    Oh, I always thought it was fake. What bothered me though, was when I watched an A&E special on it that said "Millions of people base their faith on this piece of cloth." And I was floored. So Christians base their faith on the authenticy of a piece of cloth? Last time I checked, that wasn't in the Bible. :D

    Sorry, just a little rant.
     
  11. Darth_Doug

    Darth_Doug Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Some Catholics might, but even other Catholics don't agree, to say nothing of the rest of Christianity. I hope that "millions of people" could find something a bit more deep-seated than a length of cloth (regardless of where it came from) upon which to base their faith. Those are my thoughts at least.
     
  12. Ariana Lang

    Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 1999
    Oh I agree. That's why it bothered me that A&E worded it like that. If that's what someone bases their faith on, they need to evaluate what they really believe.

    I seriously doubt most Christians would just be traumatized if the shroud turned out to be a fake.
     
  13. tenorjedi

    tenorjedi Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2000
    I think it's a fake, but then who am I to say. I've seen programs but that the extent of my knowledge.

    I saw a potato chip that looks like elvis once though (but I ate it)
     
  14. Bithysith

    Bithysith Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2000
    The actual fibers and some of the plant material (used in the burial) are dated to 1st century Judea.

    In addition, no artistic technique existed in the ancient world to create such an image visible in the negative as such.



    I saw that program, but I also read an article presented in my Art History class that suggested the cloth itself dated back to 1st century Judea, but the image was added later as a forgery. In fact, there are some who suggest that a man (probably a Caucasian, Darth Reign makes an excellent point) was actually crucified to create the image on the cloth ? as the nail wounds are on the wrists, not hands ? a mistake often depicted on crucifixes.
     
  15. MadMardigan

    MadMardigan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Oh, I always thought it was fake. What bothered me though, was when I watched an A&E special on it that said "Millions of people base their faith on this piece of cloth." And I was floored. So Christians base their faith on the authenticy of a piece of cloth? Last time I checked, that wasn't in the Bible.

    Millions more base their faith on much less if anything, so I don't see anything wrong with someone basing their faith on a shroud.

    Of course I have huge problems with the concept of faith anyway. But that's a whole other discussion for a different thread now isn't it? :)
     
  16. JediFarfy

    JediFarfy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    The shroud is a really interesting piece of art.

    JediFarfy
     
  17. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 1998
    I call it a mystery and leave it at that. My faith doesn't rely upon the authenticity of a cloth with the impression of some dead guy.

    If it is the burial shroud of Christ, that's great. If it isn't, then so what, I've still got my faith and salvation.
     
  18. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    I concur with Bithy... while there is some evidence to suggest that the shroud itself is authentic, in that it bears the marks of someone who may actually have been crucified... there is no evidence to suggest positively that the individual in question was Jesus Christ.

    Christ was certainly not the only individual crucified in that day.
     
  19. GrandAdmiralPelleaon

    GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2000
    ...as the nail wounds are on the wrists, not hands ? a mistake often depicted on crucifixes.

    If somebody was really crucified to picture it then they would have made the wounds in his wrists, seeing as putting the nails in the hands would just result in the persons hands tearing and him falling from the cross...
     
  20. Bithysith

    Bithysith Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2000
    Yes, which is why some have suggested that individuals who were knowledgeable about the affects of crucifixion on human anatomy were able to fake the shroud (by means of crucifying an anonymous man) relatively accurately. It's quite a sickening prosect, really.
     
  21. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Who would believe that it's real?

    I certainly don't.
     
  22. psychoengine

    psychoengine Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2001
    It's a great story, regardless of its veracity. But then, the same could be said of the bible in general.

    Anyway, the Shroud figures in my comic book, that'll hopefully get published someday...
     
  23. Master Salty

    Master Salty Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 1999
    My gut feeling is the shroud is fake.
     
  24. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    As is mine and from what I've heard on the Discovery Channel it indeed is a fake...
     
  25. SaberSlinger

    SaberSlinger Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2001

    I think it's a fake also, made in the Middle Ages by a very skilled artist.

    Carbon dating can be tricky with a piece like the shroud because it was involved in a very serious fire about 400-600 years ago (not quite sure on the time frame) so an accurate reading would be hard to obtain with carbon residue from 2 different time periods.

    Although an interesting argument for the shroud's authenticity is the lines that make up the outline of the body. I remember watching a History Channel special on it and they said it would be almost impossible to make those lines using brush strokes, whereas a brilliant flash of light is more likely to have caused them.


    o]||||{ -------SaberSlinger-------
     
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