PT Sick of prequel bashing...

As much as I love both your examples, I think "Revenge of the Sith" will probably earn the same kind of recognition someday.

Still haven't seen either one, but "Event Horizon" looks more like a horror film than fantasy. The same goes for the "Alien" films, too.

On the whole, I think the prequels turned out very well. Comparing current work to the past on an obsessive level is what ruins most sequels.

There's no such thing as objectivity when discussing preferences alone.

 

Damn straight!

Right on! That last part you wrote is pure gold. But don't "think" that the prequels surpass the originals. Know it. Assert it. If OT-ers and cult-like followers didn't have a presence on the Internet or on public opinion, no one would be comparing the OT to the PT. Wouldn't be worth discussing. The PT is far better than the OT. If you took a thousand people, completely new to the SW franchise and without any prior knowledge of public opinion and/or influence, and sat them down to watch the two trilogies, I'd wager about 950 to 50 would choose the PT over the OT. And even with all other things being equal--lets say the people could view the two separate trilogies in a magical vacuum where the OT upgrades its special effects to match the PT's. Kids would prefer the PT films for basic enjoyment reasons while older audiences would appreciate the PT for it's richer story and subject matter. Now that's not to say people will not love the OT: both trilogies I'm sure, would capture the audience's heart. But the PT is just the stronger, more poignant set of films.

Those people are garbage. Garbage. They're the type of people who live worthless lives talking **** behind a screen. I'd be frustrated too if I was a 30/40 year-old nobody who didn't have anything better to do than vent on internet boards.

You're not clinging to nostalgia. It's the other way around. They're (the OT-ers) the ones who cling on to their precious OT films as some sort of sacred films.

Rest assured, they're not.

You mean how do I deal with unintelligent people saying not-so-intelligent things? Same way I do it in real life. Call them out on their bull crap. Hear out their laughable reply. Then call them out on it again. Here's a thread (now locked) where I tackled what had been an OT praising/PT bashing thread:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/ot-or-pt.50012439/page-12

I'm glad you voiced your concerns in this thread, Rolf. Most likely, you have browsed the Internet only to find disparaging remarks made upon the PT without any apparent voice from the other side. I hope that the strength of my tone here though gives you renewed faith on the PT. If you keep posting, you'll eventually run into some other pro-PT people: granted, they will be more soft-spoken than me. Just don't let all the ubiquitous PT hate get to you.

 

You said it too, but Carrie said it above you, in this post:

I agree with both of you, but I thought I'd refer to the person who said it first. I probably should have referred to both of you though.

 

Ah, but we will get a whole new faction- the ST fans that bash the OT and the PT. It will turn into a situation like Syria, where you have several factions battling it out, not just one side against another. I'll be considered a traitor by any faction because I'll likely enjoy all of them (admittedly guessing on the ST, but I am pretty confident they will make something I like).

 

No Revenge of the Sith is arguably the weakest Star Wars film. People take it seriously because lots of dark violent stuff happens, but a lot of stupid improbably things in the universe happen. Grievous appears out of nowhere...and is dead out of nowhere...and it's supposed to be a big deal? Dooku is killed before any real dread can be developed. Anakin's quick turn is very stupid since he has the objective knowledge that Palpatine is in fact the evil person driving the entire conflict from the start...it's just a mess. The important thing is believable motivations. Being "tricked" (so you can claim innocence) when you have first-hand knowledge of the evil isn't really a believable motivation at all. It's bad writing.

 

Phantom Menace battle droids, clones, midichlorians and Jar Jar. where would you like me to begin?

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I'm not quite sure what you're trying to imply because I love all of those things (though I don't remember any clones being in TPM)

 

I do get why battledroids were used instead of...live opponents...to sanitize it for the all-so-important kids toy department...

but it definitely was a disappointment in the long-run of the prequels, since the opponents were befuddled idiots and not really menacing in any way. Or really believable in their wants and desires. Only that they were dumb enough to also be "tricked".

If I could do it...I would at the very least have made the Galactic Civil war a legitimate civil war over legitimate issues, in which real people fought and died. When it's "revealed" that the entire conflict was a charade...it lowers the stakes significantly.

 

The Phantom Menace was a descriptor for the battle droids. I'm fine with you liking them. I just think they are cheesy and goofy. That is in contrast to more interesting, darker and well costumed characters, such as Tusken raiders and stormtroopers.

That being said, should we ever meet at say, Star Wars Celebration, I will gladly buy lunch and enjoy the brotherhood of Star Wars. so no hard feelings.

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Really, because in my opinion I can't really see that the way Palpatine manipulating the senate and anakin to his advantage wasn't great storytelling, just as worthy of being taught in classes of great script writing as back to the future and the empire strikes back.

 

That's the intention.

But good intentions are not taught in scriptwriting classes. Good implementations are.

This was not a good implementation.

 

It maybe wishful thinking, but it seems to me there is somewhat of a PT renaissance recently. You are starting to see more and more people come out of the woodwork to openly express their admiration for the PT - sort of like the mammals coming out from under the rocks when the dinosaurs went extinct. Yes you still have many angry PT-hating trolls roaming the internet (and in here), but nonetheless I think many of the casual haters of a decade ago have grown out of it a bit. Even if they haven't all come around to loving the PT, many don't feel the need to crusade against it.

 

I'm the PT renaissance.

 

I agree with you. I don't think other blockbuster movies -- even the lauded-to-high-heaven ones like LOTR and the TDK trilogy -- are any match for the thematic gravity, painterly brilliance, sublime existentialism, scatterbrain weirdness, wonderful escapism, and artful operatics that define the prequel trilogy top to tail, inside and out. Lucas' films, in my opinion, just tackle so much more as organic works of art: they better fit, for me, the classic visionary aspect of cinema, as well as pay multifarious tribute to the strangeness of the medium itself. I mean, there are immense subtleties and beauty here. The prequels are both grand and gross, sincere and subversive. Most of their pleasures, ultimately, are wordless. This makes it hard to discuss them in a frank or "objective" way. It's like describing a piece of jazz. It can't really be done. Nevertheless, it isn't through want of trying.

Yes. I think what you're tapping into there, mainly, is the operatic aspect of the prequel trilogy. There's a grandeur to the prequels barely evident -- at least, by comparison -- in the originals. I mean, this is a trilogy that starts in Eden and ends in hell. It's not a cliche to call it biblical. The originals, to me, feel much saner and safer in comparison: almost monochrome. The "broad strokes" of the prequel trilogy help to "tell" a story about the more subtle complications at work. Like, when the world is going to hell in a handbasket in the final act of ROTS, there are reasons for that. Deep thematic reasons predicated on great subtleties. This, to me, is what makes the watching and the contemplation so riveting.

I deal with the bashing by, mostly, ignoring it.

Or, failing that, tackling it head-on.

Both are essential at different times. We all need to choose our battles.

But the best way of all is to simply sit down with one of the films and let it wash over you. You'll know that way if the movies really work for you or not.

Because, again, most of this stuff can't really be put down into words. I'm reminded of Morpheus' classic line in "The Matrix":

"Unfortunately, no-one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."

Ultimately, don't let negativity alter you for the worse. There are many opinions, attitudes, and sensibilities frowned upon in this world. In fact, the spectrum of acceptable opinion -- and behaviour -- in human society is typically very narrow. And life, as a whole, is incredibly transient. Never forget that.

It might help if you're a little bit introverted. That way, you're more comfortable in your own skin, and you don't need other people (or those in your immediate social environment) to validate your opinions, ideas, or beliefs (not nearly so much as the "average" person, anyway). Books, introspection, philosophizing, and deriving comfort from quietly seeing and experiencing the world a different way -- these are your friends.

Note that I only said "might". There are many different ways of functioning and simply liking or disliking a thing. But, for me, I think one sort of needs to find a way to disconnect at times, because the key to life is not to be found by ingratiating one's self with the herd; or, at least, I don't think it is. It could well be that half the opinions you hold could cause you to be looked at as a fool, or at least a little peculiar, by other people's standards. But if you sincerely hold those opinions, then they are yours, and both you and they all the richer for it, I think. The collective is important, but an individual is more precious. Don't do damage to yourself by denying what you feel inside.

I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan.
You must do what you feel is right, of course.

 

"Who's the real losers" indeed! As somebody who grew up with the OT - it is so amazing to have so much more SW to enjoy. I cant really imagine being a hardcore fan in 2014 if there wasn't the PT (or TCW etc). I mean I would still love it, but there's only so much to work with.

That's not at all saying anybody is a "loser" for not like PT, just that they are missing so much more SW that could otherwise be enjoyed..

 

I know what you mean.

I know its all opinions and different tastes, but I don't understand how anyone can even be a fan-or even get any enjoyment out of Star Wars, yet you only like two films in the Whole Saga.

I mean you have to be one boring fan with really boring tastes, if all you like is A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back-but don't even like Return of the Jedi or the PT.

 

It's really this simple...





Why some posters have trouble with this, I'm not sure. I suspect a B-vitamin deficiency personally.

 

Lee: Precisely, that is what I was saying. With the ST we will all likely be being at conflict with some of the surge that might come with the ST. Have at it if you can like all of them though. I like aspects of OT, PT, and EU. I just prefer the OT.

 

The problem is that alot of prequel fandom is just mushy thinking. And not the good kind either. It's like arguing with a 7th day Adventist about if the world will end, or a creationist about science. It all comes down to them viewing the movies as pretty much infallible...when clearly there are some very severe issues with the story and much of the internal logic of the films is just batty.

 

Going this route, we're going to get lost in minutiae, but...

I love ROTS.

I don't think "stupid improbably things" (sic) happen, never mind a "lot".

Grievous appears out of nowhere, and is dead out of nowhere, but it isn't meant to be a big deal. He's designed as a distraction: a freak, a sideshow. Yet he's also rich in symbolic meaning. I like that, personally.

Dooku goes out fast because Anakin is breaking all the rules: physically, ethically, spiritually. A tricky, regal antagonist from the former movie is quickly made light work of at the start of the next. I like that, as well.

Anakin doesn't necessarily have what you term "objective knowledge". As much as he may consider Palpatine corrupt and horribly evil, he's still like a child looking for the missing puzzle piece. His desperation -- and one might add: his naivete -- drives him on.

Being "tricked", when one allows one's self to be tricked, is good writing, in my opinion. That is Palpatine's ultimate bait: lay all his cards on the table and make Young Skywalker think that he is now calling the shots, but he isn't. Or, rather, he is, but from a point of emotional desperation: "I need him" (yet Anakin apparently doesn't see the obverse: Palpatine also needs him).

I actually really liked that final twist in the Tragedy/Comedy of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker. We see on Mustafar that Anakin actually weeps for what he's done, with a bitter look on his face, when alone with his thoughts. He saw with his own eyes that the man he believed in and gladly let stroke his ego for thirteen important years was truly hideous underneath: a "monster" as you said. Yet he still chose to follow him/submit. What does that say about human nature? Quite a lot, in my view. The prequel trilogy depicts a shockingly fatalistic path for its main protagonists.

Now, there is another aspect that I love.

The conflict was simply a charade to allow Palpatine to amass more power -- and to create the requisite levels of fear and doubt to annihilate the Jedi and birth the Empire.

When Palpatine reveals his identity to Anakin, it's like the scales are finally dropping from the viewer's eyes. Yet on into the murk goes Anakin. And the other Jedi with him.

The fact that Palpatine engineered an entire galactic civil war for his own ends ... that's ingenious, in my opinion. It really broadens the thematic tapestry of the entire saga. War is necessary and vital. Until it isn't. The prequel storyline puts a new spin on everything. A fake war in the PT to contrast the "real" conflict in the OT. The two trilogies are like a snake devouring its own tail.

STAR WARS / FAKE WARS

Oh, and when I hear people listing "battle droids", "clones", "midi-chlorians", and "Jar Jar", my mind does a little dance. Those words paint a picture. They are all things I love about the PT; and which I think help set it apart from the OT. That's good because I like contrasts. The bigger, the better.

 

I don't hate the PT and do like a lot of aspects from the PT but prefer the OT more.
Things are going to get crazy when it becomes OT fan, PT fan, ST fan, OT and PT fan, OT and ST fan, PT and ST fans or the 1-9 crowd. Don't even get me started on the possibilities after the next trilogy comes out.