Sidious said only one cheated death. Was he talking about his former master?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 25, 2005.

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  1. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    In The Making of Revenge of the Sith p. 62 the Fourth Draft of the script has the dialoge of that scene as:

    PALPATINE: ...Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles)
    Plagueis never saw it coming.
    It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.
    According to legend, it was a power his apprentice found no value in.
    So the ability to save loved ones was lost with Plagueis "the wise".


    Obviously the cut dialogue was information that was unnecessary for Anakin to know.
  2. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    Well to Sidious it wasn't important for Anakin to know.To the average viewer,I think taking those lines out makes Sidious look more deceptive,which makes sense. I still think Sidious lied to Anakin.
  3. Darth_Punk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    I think it was partially an ironic thing. Palps and Vader look for the secret of cheating death, and they found it. Vader "died" and was kept alive via the suit and therefore cheated death.
    The secret then died when vader died.
  4. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    See i don't think that counts as "cheating death" If that is the case, people who fight off cancer technically cheat death.People who get kidney transplants cheat death.I think Sidious referred to the ability to bring people back from the dead,which is way more alluring.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He has the power, which is the power of the Dark Side. It is needed to cheat death. Palpatine tells Anakin that he must learn the Dark Side to achieve his goals.


    PALPATINE: "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."

    ANAKIN: "What did you say?"

    PALPATINE: "Use my knowledge, I beg you . . ."


    Anakin has to learn about the Dark Side, which Palpatine can teach him. Once that's done, then they can learn how to cheat death.
  6. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Yes, but Palpatine is misleading Anakin.

    He has no use for Padmé once Anakin has become his new Apprentice, in fact, she would be a distraction to him. (This is why "Plageuis' apprentice" saw no value in the trick)

    And why, after Anakin makes his committment to the Sith Order, Sidioius tells Vader:

    To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

    Palpatine is essentially leading Vader on, IMO, telling him that the power exists, but they will have to DISCOVER it ~ this of course, will take some time ~ Palps would ensure this.

    No doubt, it will take longer than Vader's patience will allow Padmé to survive.

    Palpatine was fortunate that Vader perceived Padmé's "betrayal" at Mustafar as the reason for his actions that resulted in her death.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But Vader may have had to wait for Palpatine. Palpatine can use that for as long as possible, had Vader not lost on Mustafar or had attacked Padme. Palpatine needs Vader on his side long enough to secure the Empire and this is his only solution.
  8. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    That line - To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret. - is one of the most important lines in the movie as far as I'm concerned.

    As soon as Palpatine delivers that line, then the whole saga suddenly forks off in two directions - you can then choose between two different sagas. It opens the door to the possibility that Palpatine has never been telling the truth about anything; you can trace your way back through the PT and doubt pretty much everything Palpatine has ever said.
    But at the same time, there is still that possibility that it is all true, if you choose to believe it.

    Did Palpatine create Anakin?
    Were the Sith behind Shmi's death?
    Was Palpatine behind Anakin's portenteous visions?
    Did Plagueis really learn the power to cheat death?
    Or was it all just a big con?

    It doesn't matter, because the same story works both ways.
    And by that point Anakin has already pledged himself to Palpatine - as he says, he will do whatever Palpatine asks - so he is never going to spot the con...
  9. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    1.Sidious was Plgaius' apprentice and the one that was created out of nothing. He found the secret of immortality but never used it, hence his death.

    2.Anakin was created to balance out Sidious' creation, hence the prohphecy. He didn't know how to gain immortality, only that the ability existed.

    3.It was confirmed that it could be done when Qui-Gon talked to Yoda from beyond the grave. Sidious obviously sensed his return and that confirmed that it could be done.

    4.He told Anakin that he would tell him the power as a trick to get him to join him, but he never really know the exact knowledge of how to achieve it.
  10. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    chopman is this all speculation?the only part that we can assume is that he didnt know how to stop people from dying.
  11. darthvader88 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2005
    star 2
    maybe he was talking about Darth Bane. after all, Darth Bane saved himself and somebody else from a Thought Bomb during the Battle of Ruusan.
  12. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    It seems the only definite we do have is that we aren't sure if he's telling the truth about anything.

    Isn't it handy to be able to show a flicker of hope, to provide a light at the end of a tunnel, when he knows of Anakin's premonitions? Doesn't it prove to be a useful tool to finally ensure Anakin's commitment, at least initially, to the Sith?

    The fact that his story evolves as events unfold and as needs must in respect of Anakin, for me, is enough to throw doubt over everything he says, so much so that there may be an element of truth in parts of his speech.

    But how much is true, and how much isn't simply isn't clear.
  13. mastersith69 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
    no i think sidious all along knew there was no way to cheat death and stay alive for ever, he just needed an excuse to hook anakin in to betray everybody to save padme. that scene with his mother dieing was key to rots because it setup that he was determined to keep padme from dying too.

    in rots when sidious tells anakin about the ability to keep the ones he loved from dying it was simply a hook to get anakin. because notice he doesnt say to keep the ones around him from dying but simply the ones he loved. that is crucial because we know anakin loves her and would do anything and when he hears this he is sold. but what if yoda had said this story before sidious had or yoda change it to an old jedi tale?
  14. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    As I said in my post above, there is a lean towards him having concocted the whole of it.

    Nevertheless, there is enough to also suggest that maybe elements of it are true. We just don't know.

    Maybe even Sidious was lied to by Plageius about his ability to influence the midi's, anyone think of that...?
  15. Sidious_T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2004
    star 4
    If you missed that one, you wern't paying attention.
  16. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    I'm not speculating anything, it's all in the movie.
  17. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    Maybe even Sidious was lied to by Plageius about his ability to influence the midi's, anyone think of that...?


    Reply
    If you missed that one, you wern't paying attention.


    I hadn't seen anyone suggest that before...so thought I'd throw it out there.


    4.He told Anakin that he would tell him the power as a trick to get him to join him, but he never really know the exact knowledge of how to achieve it.

    He didn't tell Anakin he could show him how to save Padme, he never said he could do it. If you listen again you'll realise that.

    reply
    I'm not speculating anything, it's all in the movie

    1.Sidious was Plgaius' apprentice and the one that was created out of nothing. He found the secret of immortality but never used it, hence his death.

    2.Anakin was created to balance out Sidious' creation, hence the prohphecy. He didn't know how to gain immortality, only that the ability existed.

    3.It was confirmed that it could be done when Qui-Gon talked to Yoda from beyond the grave. Sidious obviously sensed his return and that confirmed that it could be done.


    At the very least all the underlined parts are speculation [face_batting]
  18. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    This is interesting....

    Think about this for a moment, If Plagueis created Anakin then that would mean that Plagueis would have had to have done this only 10 years prior to TPM, now if he DID create Anakin then that would mean that there were three sith living at the same time (Plagueis, Sidious, Maul) because Maul is "at least" 20 something in TPM.

    (So either there were three sith at once or Plagueis didnt create Anakin)

    Now say he DIDNT create Anakin then WHO did he create??[face_thinking]

    And better yet...who did he "save from death"??[face_thinking]

    Maybe Plagueis created Maul, and saved Sidious from death.:confused:

    You never know....but the author of this thread is correct, the timeline doesnt add up. (If Plagueis created Anakin and Sidious raised Maul from birth/early childhood)
  19. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    Now say he DIDNT create Anakin then WHO did he create??

    And better yet...who did he "save from death"??


    As you say, this assumes the story is true in the first place [face_hypnotized]

    I suppose in the end Sidious never actually says he did will the midi's and he doesn't say Plageius did save anybody from death and he never says that he can either.

    But the carrot has be metaphorically dangled....
  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Funny, Dark Lord states Plagueis spent his whole life searching for the secret,
    BUT NEVER FOUND IT.

    Now I am unable to locate that specific page, but I did find this:

    Dark Lord page 133.

    For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been pursued by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful at discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ANCIENT SITH LORDS had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced. Now that the galaxy was his to rule, there was nothing to prevent Sidious, too, from unlocking that mystery.

    ***
    Dezdmona posted:
    He has no use for Padmé once Anakin has become his new Apprentice, in fact, she would be a distraction to him.


    You are correct.

    In Dark Lord page 134,

    For all she loved him, she never would have understood or forgiven Anakin's actions in the Jedi Temple.

    Even if she had survived Mustafar, their love would have died- Padme' might even have lost the will to live-


    />

  21. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Nope falty thinking there. With that you could argue Dooku was Palpatines apprentice for 70 years. We all know that's not true! Maul could have started training at the are of 15 for all we know.
  22. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    Nope falty thinking there. With that you could argue Dooku was Palpatines apprentice for 70 years. We all know that's not true! Maul could have started training at the are of 15 for all we know.

    That doesnt apply with Sidious/Maul because we all know that Dooku was a jedi so that theory doesnt work. But I thought it was common knowledge that Sidious found Maul as a child?:confused:

  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9


    Two problems.

    1. Lucas said that the Sith could've done it or the Force did.

    2. The New Essential Chronology backs up that statement.

    Luceno wrote the book before he heard what Lucas had to say on the issue. That it doesn't matter if the Sith created Anakin to be the Chosen One, because he's still the Chosen One regardless of his birthright./>
  24. Kryptonian_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2005
    star 1
    How the heck are there plot holes? What other source material in the movies contradict it? In the movies, everything's solid; outside the movies all we have is speculation. Don't get me wrong, I love all these theories, but just think about what your saying. The only thing that could make any plot holes is Lucas, and his not making any more movies, is he?

    As to all this other stuff, I think it's possible that Plaguis was Palpatines master, but maybe he didn't teach him all he knew. When Palpatine becomes impatient he kills his master while he sleeps and then collects his Plaguis' holocrons and tries to decipher his "memoirs". However, as I speculate, he soon learns that even with all his power, he isn't strong enough to access the true secrets of the holocrons. So he seeks to train an apprentice that would be strong enough to aid him in accessing these dark teachings. He finds one, and trains him in the Dark Side. Of course we know how that ends. So he takes on a second apprentice, a stronger apprentice, a doomed apprentice. So then he starts talking with Anakin, methodically sewing seeds of doubt, anger, and frustration in his mind. Soon Anakin falls, and soon Anakin will aid him in garnering the secrets of immortality! Unfortunately Anakin slips up and is encased in walking tomb and has lost signifigant amounts of power. Now Palpatine will either have to spend decades teaching Vader how to use his decreased power to its fullest, or find a new apprentice. In steps Luke and the rest is, as they say, history.
  25. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks for this quote SithStarSlayer, I remember reading it and it has been rolling around in my head as I've been reading this thread, but I just hadn't pulled the book out to look it up. [:D]

    I guess the question boils down to the definitions of:

    saved from dying
    cheating death

    As Sidious says "cheat death" directly in response to Anakin's plea to save Padmé from dying, I had naively "assumed" they were talking about the same thing. :oops:

    The above quote appears to equate "survive death" with "cheat death" but both are different than "save from dying".

    Sidious is a silver-tounged devil is (again) saying one thing and meaning another.
    He isn't answering Anakin's plea, he's talking about his own dream.

    "Cheating death" sounds like a purely dark side twisting of the Force whereas "saved from dying" could encompass almost anything.

    "Cheating death" is also much different than "Immortality", although if achieved, extended influence the individual would still have.
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