Sidious said only one cheated death. Was he talking about his former master?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 25, 2005.

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  1. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Well Luke wasn't trained from a baby and look at the bad arse he turned out to be. Besides not realy sure if it is common knowlegde Maul was raised by Sidious since his childhood. I've never heard that. That knowledge is not canon is it?

    <*shrugs*>
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    No problems here.:D

    We aren't writing about the same secret, Sinister.
    Everything I wrote was about cheating death, NOT about creating life.

    [face_peace] />
  3. TCG Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2005
    star 2
    forgive me for not reading the previous 2 pages.

    i believe Sidious WAS talking about his former master. i've watched the scene several times, and it really seems like he enjoys talking about it. as if he's reliving it fondly each time. just like when you tell a great story to someone who hasnt heard it before.
  4. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    vadersmyfather,thank you.Chopman's statements were definitely mostly speculation.I don't think Palpatine really had any clue how to cheat death.I think he was just saying,"Well only one person knows,BUT join the dark side and we can do this."It was a shame that Anakin was so naive.
  5. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    "Well only one person knows,BUT join the dark side and we can do this."

    That's exactly what he says, and he never offers anything more.

    He offers Anakin access to abilities that may allow him to discover the power.

    He doesn't say that if Anakin joins him he will save Padme.

    Still, even those points assume that Plageius had discovered the power and Sidious is telling the truth [face_mischief]
  6. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    Well I dont follow the EU but I did hear that Sidious found a very young Maul, tortured him, and trained him into a dark side killing machine.

    The OS (www.starwars.com) has some info on it but it's EU

    Darth Maul's EU origin

    I personally dont follow EU but just based on the movies, it seems like the only force users who were trained past 5 or 6 years old were the skywalkers.
  7. DarthNeil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 4
    ****Comments Removed****
  8. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I meant to say the only force users that STARTED training past 5 or 6 were the skywalkers.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Most Jedi and Sith Apprentices were trained from six months to four years of age. Lucas did state that Sidious instead of finding another baby to train, he turned Dooku so that he could turn Anakin. So the origin of Maul is accurate, even though it comes from the eu. Everything that's said in "Shadow Hunter", the Darth Maul mini-series by Dark Horse and the Darth Maul journal is about as canon as you're going to get. The last one features Sidious using a Lightsaber and fighting Maul to determine if he's ready or not.
  10. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I forgot about that Lucas quote.
    (finding another baby to train.)

    So yeah, I guess it's not just EU....he DID find Maul and train him as a baby.

    So now we're back to the timeline thing...If Plageuis created Anakin then Sidious was training Maul in secret while he himself was still an apprentice.[face_thinking]
  11. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    SIDIOUS DID NOT CREATE ANAKIN!! Let's put an end to that right now.The force did as far as I can tell.That is the beauty of it,the force has two sides and he bent it to go to both sides.There was an idea generated early on in the writing of ROTS where Sidious says he made him BUT they didn't go with it.THANK GOD!!!
  12. PyrhanaJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2003
    star 1
    If there ever was a Sith to acheive this power my vote goes to...Darth Vader.
    There is no ambiguity in choosing the Sith with the most midichlorians who ever lived, whose only explanation for being alive is the midichlorians themselves.
    This I feel chops the argument for Sidious and Anakin not being able to pursue this together, as Lord Sidious states, right in half.
    If this could be done by anyone besides the legendary Darth Plagueis, Vader would be the rightful heir.
    This ability might or might not interest Sidious, but I believe the possibility is more potent than it had ever been, even discrediting all the speculation(s) about Plagueis.
    Anakin's dream has always been thus; it is his lust of cheating death that draws him to the Dark Side.
    I guess, really, if we knew if Anakin could feel himself getting closer to this gift we could give merit to Sidious's intimations.

    As far as Lord Plagueis not being able to save himself, much to the chagrin of Sidious, I do not feel this automatically elects Sidious as the direct apprentice of Lord Plagueis.
    Palpatine did not harbor Anakin as a Sith apprentice either until ROTS. He had no knowledge of Anakin until the battle of Naboo. Anakin was not Sidious apprentice until after Darth Maul died, and after that Dooku. However Anakin arrives is beyond the motives of Sidious himself.
  13. adamlee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2004
    star 2
    Exactly Pyrhana.If Sidious had any awareness of Anakin in TPM,we would have heard of it.So let it go people.Sids didn't create Anakin.I don't think Anakin felt he was getting closer to cheating death yet.He still was in the trial period of Sithdom.Plus I think he was a lost soul and only his orders kept him going.It's why he breaks down at Mustafar when he finally has a moment alone.
  14. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Although I personally choose to view the saga with Anakin as the product of the Force itself, and although I think there are many ROTS topics that people should "let go" of, I, sadly, don't think the Sith conception is one of them:

    "Now there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ulitmately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force." - George Lucas, Rolling Stone, June 2005

    Lucas thinks it is valid enough for people to view it that way, and that's good enough for me.
    Divided on this issue, we will remain...
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hell, the original script had Palpatine telling Anakin that he created him and to search his feelings, because he isn't lying. The original idea was that Sidious created Anakin and while waiting on him, he trained Maul and would one day pit them against each other. That way, he can be rid of Maul who would be a leader in the Clone Wars and he'd have Vader, the replacement who is seen as the public hero. But then Maul got himself killed, so Dooku had to be turned to keep on schedule.

    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    What happened is that Lucas made it ambigious. There is no right or wrong answer.
  16. vadersmyfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2005
    star 1
    Hell, the original script had Palpatine telling Anakin that he created him and to search his feelings, because he isn't lying. The original idea was that Sidious created Anakin and while waiting on him, he trained Maul and would one day pit them against each other

    Is the underlined part of this definite or have you derived this from the first part of the sentence?

    If so, how do we not know that Sidious isn't lying about his creation.

    (though I know essentially there is no right and wrong answer)

    I have to say while I didn't enjoy the 'Rise of darth Vader' novel as a whole, I did like the part where Sidious suggests that Anakin was created to balance the force...to get rid of the Jedi. It's a different way of looking at the Prophecy, and in many ways explained Sidious's pursuit of Anakin and some of his actions, for he is trying to accomplish much the same as the Jedi.
  17. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Darth Sidious: "I have waited al these years for you to fulfill your destiny... I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you."

    Anakin: "I don't believe you."

    Darth Sidious: "Ahh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. You could almost think of me as your father."

    Anakin: "That's impossible."

    Darth Sidious: "Nevertheless, you must decide..."


    - ROTS, rough draft, Jan 31 3004

    If you look back at the genesis of all six films, they always go through a process of simplification as everything falls into place.
    Hence the concept of the Kiber crystal and detailed explanations of the two aspects of the Force disappear; the pessimistic side of Luke's character is separated into Han Solo; a sub plot involving Wampas is removed; Luke's secret sister being trained on the other side of the galaxy becomes Leia; a bitter power struggle between Vader and Moff Jerjerrod is eliminated; and a over-complicated face-off between Luke, Palpatine, Vader, Obi and Yoda and an unnecessary trip to the bowels of Had Abbadon is tightened up and relocated to the Death Star.

    It's how Lucas works - he tends to make things as complicated as possible, before beginning the process of making the films as simple as they need to be.
    Everything is considered before he gets to the shooting script, so a lot of ideas fall by the wayside.
    He realised that Palpatine claiming to be Anakin's father just wasn't needed in the film, so he reduced it to something that is only subtly implied.
    Same for Qui-Gon Jinn's conversations with Yoda, and Yoda's realisation that the Jedi were destined to die. The idea that the prophecy predicted the rise of the Dark Side was almost introduced in AOTC, but was cut, and was revisited while Lucas worked on ROTS drafts.
    Ultimately, it just complicated things.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's supposisition based on what was in the earlier script draft, which GIG provided. Combined with what Lucas said about Dooku's involvement in the PT, the intent becomes clear. Note that not only did Palpatine want Anakin to kill Dooku to set up his turn, but he also wanted to eliminate an Apprentice that would compromise his political position. It wouldn't do for the leader of the opposition to be his right hand man. Best to eliminate him and replace him with a Sith who will not draw scrutiny the way Dooku will. It even makes sense why Dooku continued to use his real name, instead of making it known that he is now Lord Darth Tyranus. Darth Maul would've been in the same boat had he lived and was put in charge of the Confederacy. And before you say that Maul didn't have the political background, Nute Gunray could've handled that. But Nute's failure on Naboo and Maul's death forced Palpatine to make adjustments. Hence Dooku serves the necessary function of both political leader and Apprentice.
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Heh - yeah, and it was dated Jan 31, 2003... NOT 3004 as I posted! 8-}

    [comic_store_guy]"Worst... typo... ever.[/comic_store_guy]
  20. darth_obawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 4
    shyea dude, Sidious told Anakin that Plagueis taught his apprentice everything, which I`m thinking includes how to cheat death, and then later Sidious is like, 'together we can figure it out' (it being how to cheat death), meaning Sidious doesn`t know. So..I`m thinking there were a few apprentices between Sidious and Plagueis. [face_peace]

    Unless, of course, Sidious lied to keep Anakin as his apprentice forever, I guess.
  21. GrievousKiller Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 3
    i think i saw that palpatine was in fact plaguises apprentice in the starwars.com database
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yep. It's official everywhere. Plaugeis>Sidious>Maul>Tyranus>Vader.
  23. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine says: "To cheat death is a power only one has discovered" or something like that. I assume Plagueis cheated death several times and/or saved the people he cared for from death. However, he couldn't cheat death in his sleep, when Palpatine stabbed him.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine said that Plaugeis had supposedly saved someone that he cared for, but he couldn't save himself. It might've worked if he was awake, but Palpatine didn't give him the chance.
  25. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    What if Sidious was one of those that Plagueis saved?
    That'd really be psychotic.
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