Sidious' Triumph. Destroying the Jedi or Creating Darth Vader?

What meant more to Sidious, what was the greater triumph. Turning Anakin to the Dark Side or destroying the Jedi?

 

Destroying the Jedi. Vader was the tool in doing that.

No matter how much potential Vader may have had, he was nothing next to the ancient, ancient feud between Jedi and Sith that Palpatine ended in victory for the Sith.

Palpatine, not Vader, was the greatest Sith who ever lived.

 

The destruction of the Jedi. Vader was a great tool, but still just a tool to the Emperor.

 

I think arguments can be made for either side.

(1) Let's not forget Palpatine's line to Yoda, "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." So, if Palpatine is just a pawn in the greater Sith scheme of galactic domination than turning Anakin into Vader was the biggest boon to the order.

(2) However, the Jedi were massively overwhelming and could have easily stopped both Palpatine and Vader en masse. Destroying them was a masterstroke.

I tend to agree with the latter. Even with Vader (and forgetting for a moment that Anakin is destined to destroy the Sith), the two could not have accomplished galactic dominance without eliminating the Jedi. And, working form a position of weakness (2 against 10,000), Palpatine precipitated the downfall of the entire Jedi order. Pretty impressive.

-kai

 

I'd go with the latter, although the former is a good point. The destruction of the jedi and ascention of the Sith was Palpatine's priority and he used whatever tools were at his disposal to achieve that end. Vader was one mighty useful tool, though, which is why Palpatine put so much time and effort into him. In the end, though, Palpatine was happily going to trade Vader in for Luke, in the same way he did Dooku for Anakin.

 

Destroying the Jedi.

 

Great question, and it's a tough one too. If Palpatine sat back and reflected on it, by the time of the OT, his destruction of the Jedi Order was probably what he was most proud of. But, maybe in RotS, he's most proud of turning Vader. Converting Anakin Skywalker ensured that the Sith would survive forever and become much more powerful under Vader.

 

Both are among his greatest triumphs. Destroying the Jedi Order, taking control of the Republic and creating his Empire was the long term goals of the Sith Order since the Battle of Ruusan. One thousand years of waiting paitently for this moment, for this chance to have their revenge. It was estatic. But turning Anakin Skywalker was just an added bonus for having lost Lord Maul all those years ago. The perfect capper to the perfect plan. Minus the fact that he will never be what he should've been, because of Obi-wan.

 

Creating an Empire out of a democracy to restore the Sith's rule over the galaxy while at the same time destroying the Jedi Order were two of Sidious' triumphs, both of which beyond belief.

However, none of the above could have happened had it not been for recruitment to the Sith of the one person capable of stopping it all...Anakin Skywalker.

It is for that reason that the turning of Anakin was Sidious' ultimate triumph. Knowing the danger before it existed in a form to defeat him, Sidious turned what could have been his victor using him instead as his accomplice.

A masterful use of fate and ultimate irony indeed.

While Sidious' other accomplishments are grandiose in scale, nothing compares to his work in so successfully trapping Anakin in a prison of his own making.

 

Creating Darth Vader

Exploiting the Jedi's weaknesses and corrupting their Chosen One, making him turn his back on everyone and everything, including the Order itself, allowing for its swift and unfettered destruction, is Sidious' greatest triumph. He had to have a great insight into human nature and the entire system to do it, and did it he did. Destroying an entire order of venerable knights / warriors / monks is child's play by comparison!

 

I agree, it would have been perfect... were it not for Mustafar.

 

I have to agree. Converting Anakin was the bonus. My only question is: If the events on Mustafar never took place, would Vader then be considered the Sith Ari?

 

Nah, because he wouldn't destroy the Sith Order. He would just learn all that there was to learn from Palpatine, then kill him and move on to being Emperor.

 

I love the evil smile when Palpatine realizes the monster he's created.

 

eXactly...

Lucky for some us, the alternate ending to the ROTS video game gives us something close to that. What was really cool about it; in an ironic sorta way, was Sidious went out like Qui-Gon did. Poetic justice? If only it was canon... LOL

 

Revenge of the Sith was the title of the movie. In order for the Sith to get their long awaited revenge on the Jedi, it would take a great deal of planning and plotting. In the end the Sith destroy the Jedi. That was Palpatine's biggest goal.

 

Yes.

If you notice, Sidious doesn't really complain about the fact that his face has been mangled. In the book he says something like it was interesting or appropriate.

Even if Darth Vader is crippled when he is put in the suit, he is still a greater symbol of fear and power than he would be as a punk ass blonde kid.

In the Galactic Empire, Darth Vader does his job better in the suit than healthy. Sith just love looking bizarre and creepy.

 

Destroying the Jedi.
Even if Anakin didn't convert, Sidious would still order 501's attack on the Jedi Temple, go to Mustafar and kill the Seperatists and execute Order 66. That's what the Sith wanted all along: destruction of the Jedi and galactic domination. Vader was just an extra thing, and he threw Sidious down the reactor in ROTJ anyway.

 

How about tying them together? Sidious's greatest triumph was using Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader to help him destroy the Jedi...the Jedi in the Temple would have been a LOT harder to kill, and without a Jedi to do it, might not have even been possible.

 

I'm going to have to say Destroying the Jedi. I think that he created/used Vader as a tool to achieve this long-term objective. I think that if he could have used Dooku to do it, or Maul, he would just as easily have used one of them. Vader was the perfect one though.

 

Everything was interlinked. He couldnt have achieved one without the other. His success in the PT was his biggest success - until he discovered that his trophy had been pawned by Kenobi!

 

I wouldn't say it was Sidious's triumph to begin with. In a way the Empire was more Vader's creation than Palpatine's. Sure, Sidious was the one who hatched the plot and carried it out, but in the end all his scheming only brought him down to the business end of Samuel Jackson's lightsaber. Instead, it was Anakin's actions that brought about the death of the Republic and the downfall of the Jedi, not Palpatine's.

The reason I say this is because the role Palpatine plays isn't really that of a person, he's more like some evil entity that plots to destroy the good guys and does so only because that's all he exists to accomplish. So in a way, Sidious climbing up to become Supreme Chancellor was inevitable, and the only thing that really matters by then is that balance point where Anakin had to choose which side to take.

 

It can be argued that Sidious converting Anakin to the Darkside was a greater victory than destroying the Jedi, primary reason is he prolonged his life by clouding the Choosen One's loyality and thinking, by doing this he lived a lot longer than he would have if Anakin had't been converted. Palaptine's victory over the Jedi was done not through active personal moves, but rather done through the Confederancy, through the Clone Wars, through the Senate, through giving Order 66, through Darth Vader and the Stormtroopers/Clonetroopers. All Sidious did was give the order he had little to do with the actual defeat of the Jedi outside personally being the mastermind of the whole plan, though Sidious had EVERY hand in converting the tool that would later destroy him. Anakin Skywalker.

Sidious's greatest victory was extending his life by controlling the Choosen One, so the prophesy wouldn't be fullfilled, until Anakin resurfaces and finally does what he was ment to do, 20+ years prior to the events in ROTJ.


Its kind of like saying whos worse Hitler or the S.S. for the attempted purge entirity of the Jewish people in WWII, Hitler though he gave the order, he didn't kill them personally, that was done by the S.S. through "Concenstration Camps."

So whos to blame the one whom gave the order? or the one who carries out the order? to save a entire hour from a philosophy lesson, I'll just give the short and correct answer which is. Both of them are wrong. Period.

 

Argh, no! Sidious didn't triumph over anything. Darth Vader was created by Anakin, who turned to the dark side out of his own heart and will, and it cheapens it to say that this Sidious person made him do it.

 

Sids main goal was to destroy the Jedi. Not convert Anakin.