Sidious+Vader+Luke=3

In light of the information we learn in TPM about Siths always working in twos, I wonder now how we can reconcile this with the plot of ESP, where Vader and the Emperor want Luke to join them. (And forgive me if this has come up before; I did some searching but could find nothing on it...) The problem, as I see it, is as follows:

A)If the Emperor wants Luke to Join him, then Vader must know that he-- Vader-- is on the outs, and would try to do something to stop this.

B)If Vader wanted Luke to join him, it must mean that the Emperor was going to be victim of a coup, and surely he wouldn't want that.

Given this, what's the motivation to turn Luke to the Dark Side in ESB and ROTJ?

Think about it-- when Vader brings Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ, it's clear that the goal is to convert Luke. Knowing this, why would Vader go along with the plan? Why not kill Luke before he ever got to the Emperor? Or why not 'accidentally' let Luke strike down the Emperor as he gloats and goads in his fancy chair?

Even if one tries to explain it all as a giant double cross, where Vader and the Emperor are just waiting for the right time to screw the other, the actions of Vader in ROTJ just don't seem to fit.

What's going on here?

 

The best explanation is that the "rule of 2" was thrown away. The whole idea of the rule of 2 was as a model for the sith to get themselves into power.

For Palpatine- Once back into power, Palpatine probably got arrogant and didn't think the rule of 2 was needed anymore. He could control one Skywalker, why not two.

As for Vader- The earliest sign that Vader has feelings for Luke is that he wants to turn him instead of kill him. Luke was right about both of them:

"Overconfidence is your weakness."

"You didn't have the resolve to kill me before and I don't think you do now."


---Obi-man

 

I don't think the rule of 2 was necessarily out the window. By Sidious telling Vader that he has foreseen Luke destroying him, Vader is like "cool, I get to be the Emporer now!" So Vader goes out and vigorously tries to find Luke.


Only in ROTJ, Vader is a little more cynical and knows that Sidious is looking for a younger, stronger less crippled apprentice.
He also, deep down, cares for his son.

They both secretly start to form their own agendas except the Emporer is way stronger than Vader. Vader becomes the pawn and the tables turn on old Palpy in the end.


Here's a question, did Vader destroy Palpy because he was killing his son? Or because Palpy betrayed him?

I'm thinking both, but more so because his son was being killed right in front of him.

 

Vader wanted Luke to kill the Emperor and Palpy wanted Luke to kill Vader. Either way, only two Sith remain.

 

If Luke joined Vader and the Emperor, then one of the 3 Sith would have been killed off, leaving 2 to continue the order.

 

The Emperor looked at Luke as an asset. The Sith rule of two I think was still in effect. But in this case Luke was a danger to their existence. The Emperor to me wanted to kill off Vader. He even tempted Luke to do away with Vader. Then there would have been just Luke and the Emperor.

 

interview

MOYERS: When Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire side, offering him all that the Empire has to offer, I am taken back to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world, if only he will turn away from his mission. Was that conscious in your mind?

LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side. One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies.

 

Yes, in ROTJ, the only way Luke would have turned to the Darkside is by killing Vader or the Emperor. In ESB, had he joined Vader, they would have gone right out and killed Palpatine, or he would have killed on of them trying. There would never have been 3 sith for any substantial amount of time. Neither Vader or the Emperor were trying to have a three man army. ThE Rule of Two is completely relevant and in effect in the OT.

 

I don't mean 2 get off the subject, but this kindov sparks up another question: If Vader wanted the Emporer dead, why didn't he let Luke kill him when he tried to? Why did Vader block his attack?

 

The plan was never really to have Luke join them. Vader and Palpatine were plotting against each other.

 

"If Vader wanted the Emporer dead, why didn't he let Luke kill him when he tried to? Why did Vader block his attack?"

This could signal the start of Vader's "turning" towards Luke, and thus not wanting his son to fall to the Dark side. Also, if Luke should fail in his attempt, Palpatine would kill Vader on the spot for his failure to protect his master. Vader may also know or believe that Palpatine would not be felled by a lightsaber.

 

Vader was still loyal to the very end.

or

Vader wanted to prevent Luke from making the same mistake he will probably make in Episode III.

 

Its probably a combination of both. He was still somewhat loyal, but there was a part of him that didn't want Luke to follow the path he did.

Also, we don't know what the Emperor would have been able to do had Vader let Luke go. He was probably expecting it all the way, and Luke didn't exactly throw a quick strike at him. He probably had some sort of contigency plan had Vader not stopped Luke.

 

But wait, Vader wanted 2 "...rule the galxy as father and son." If he let Luke kill palps, then he could do that, right?

"Vader may also know or believe that Palpatine would not be felled by a lightsaber." But Palps is ancient. A lightsaber would probably kill him. I read in a book that when Vader picked up the Emporer, right away Palpatine's ribs cracked. So a lightsaber would most definatley (sp?) kill him.

 

Remember that there are two things happening during the throne room scenes.

1. Luke is being tempted by the DS but is hanging in with the LS.

2. Vader is being tempted back to the LS but is still attached to the DS.

When Luke makes a move for the Emperor he's making a move towards the DS, but doesn't completely turn. Vader is still pretty much with the DS so he must obey his master.

THe fight goes on, Luke re-grouops to the Light side and turns-off his saber. Veder then strikes back, still in the DS.

Luke jumps to the catwalk. And tempts Vader for the "conflict", Vader still clings to the DS and tries to kill his son.

Vader tempts Luke with his attachements to his friends. Luke goes to the DS and beats Vader to the ground.

The emperor takes this chance to ask Luke to off Vader and join him. Luke makes his decision to surrender to the Light side and throws his saber away.

The Emperor then taps to the DS (anger) and starts to kill Luke. This action sends Vader to the Light side (I guess only he could harm Luke), he surrenders his life to save his son and offs the Emperor.


CONCLUSION: There were never 3 Siths, as Luke never did convert to the DS. IF Luke would have gone to the DS it would have been by killing Vader, thus the end result was still 2 Sith. If Vader hadn't turned to the Light side the emperor would have killed Luke, still 2 Sith. If Luke would have killed the Emperor, then 2 Sith.

SO still the rule of 2 was mantained.

Sorry for the long post.

 

The rule of 2 was developed by Darth Bane after the sith had all but destroyed themselves. This protected you from having too much power. Kind of a checks and balances thing. In the Classic Trilogy, Vader and the Emperor are trying to get Luke for their own individual advantages. The Emperor wants him to destroy his father and take his place at his side. Vader wants him and says that together they would rule the galaxy, no mention of old Palp's. So maybe since the Emperor sensed Luke's strongness (is that word) in the force that he believed him to be more powerful than his father. maybe... And Vader wanted him because, 1. it's his son, 2. he is very very strong in the force, 3. it's his son.
Ok, there's my 2 cents.

 

I'm comfortable that the "rule of two" applies to the OT, but this thread is intelligently knocking this around. Cool.

Don't forget, Lucas probably hadn't thought of the whole "rule of two" thing when he wrote the original trilogy. I'm not even 100% sure Lucas came up with it (wasn't it one of the novelizers?), but I'll give him credit anyway.

It seems to me that the whole "rule of two" was probably created precisely to give the Luke/Vader/Palpy triangle an historical context. The Luke/Vader/Palpatine triangle is a working illustration of the "rule of two" in action.

You start with two Sith, Palpy and Vader. A potential new Sith appears...Luke. In order to add Luke to the Sith equation, you have to subtract one of the first two. Both Vader and Palpatine know this, and I think both are quite aware of the ramifications of recruiting Luke. Both see the potential benefits...

If Vader succeeds in recruiting Luke, Vader can overthrow Palpy and become the head honcho himself.

If Palpy succeeds in recruiting Luke, and if Luke defeats Vader, Palpy has a new, stronger enforcer. If Vader defeats Luke, well, Palpy still has the galaxy's top Force-wielder working for him.

As for WHY Vader protects Palpy at the end of ROTJ when it seems letting Luke kill Palpy will fulfill Vader's ambition? As Vader himself says, "it's too late for me." In ESB, Vader thought he had a chance to recruit Luke and plot the Emperor's downfall. In ROTJ, Vader knows that once Palpy starts working on Luke, the opportunity is gone.

My argument would be...do you really think Palpy would sit there unarmed and let Luke kill him? As we found out later, Palpy is never "unarmed." Perhaps there's some merit to the idea that Vader is preventing Luke from making the same mistake he himself makes (in Ep. III?). In any case, the difference between ESB and ROTJ is that in ESB the discovery of Luke's identity and abilities has Vader feeling frisky. When that plan fails, his spirit is broken and he's resigned to serving the Emperor.

 

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
--George Lucas

 

I agree that Vader's attitude towards Luke changed between ESB and RotJ. When Vader was the only one of the two Sith to have propositioned Luke, he knew there was a chance Luke would feel their familial connection and immediately be persuaded to side with him. Palpy, however, is a master manipulator, and I think Vader realized that the situation with Luke would change drastically as soon as the Emperor started working on him. That could explain in part why Vader blocked Luke's blow at Palpy. The offer he had initially made to Luke no longer stood as it was originally proffered because the situation had changed.

Vader certainly hadn't given up on the possibility that Luke would join him in RotJ, but it's obvious that he changes his tactics in response to the addition of Palpy into the formula. Vader goes back to goading Luke into using the dark side with taunts at Luke's skills and threats against Leia just like he attempted to goad Luke at the beginning of their ESB duel.

 

Very interesting topic!

Like with all Sith, Vader harbored thoughts of over-throwing his Master, and likewise, Palpatine did not trust Vader.

Vader decided to act upon those thoughts when he learned that Luke was his son-- instead of bringing Luke to the Emperor, he tried to convince Luke to join the Dark Side and rule the galaxy with him. Palpatine himself was probably suspicious when Vader failured to deliver Luke to him.

This suspicion clearly grows during Return of the Jedi. When Vader says that he has felt his son at Endor, the Emperor answers that it is strange he has not, and wonders if Lord Vader's thoughts on the matter are clear? At that point, it is clear that Palpatine does not trust Vader.

I think that Palpatine's objective was to seduce Luke to the Dark Side, and then provoke a fight between Luke and Vader, or vice versa. If Vader defeated Luke, it meant that Vader was still powerful enough and loyal to Palpatine (willing to kill his own son). If Luke defeated Vader, than Palpatine gained a younger, and quite possibly stronger apprentice. Vader's own objective was to convince his son to join him in the Dark Side, and togethor overthrow the Emperor. What neither of them counted on was Luke defeating Vader, but then resisting the Dark Side. I think that Luke's mercy for Vader and refusal to turn really affected Vader. Vader had heard Palpatine encourage Luke to kill him, saw that Palpatine was now torturing and killing Luke, and finally found the strength to turn back from the Dark Side. He then killed the Emperor, but not because of any lust for power.

ROTJ is really an interesting movie to watch. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but it seems as if Vader is almost resigned in his attitude toward the Dark Side. When he tells Luke, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side," it's almost as if Vader wants to turn back to the light, but can't--the Dark Side is too strong, it has too much control over him.

On a slightly different note, has anyone noticed the similarity between the scene in AotC where Dooku tries to convince Obi-Wan to join him, and where Vader tries to convince Luke to join him? I know that people have asked why Dooku would reveal that the Sith were in control of the Republic--I think the answer is that Dooku was plotting the overthrow of his master. In fact, I question if Dooku ever considered Sidious to be his master, or even considered himself to be a Sith. Dooku probably thought he was "using" Sidious for his own just purposes, and never realized how far he had fallen into the Dark Side, and how much control Sidious really had over him.

 

Oh, come on! it's obvious they're both planning to knock the other guy off; Palpatine wants a new and pliable apprentice; Vader wants to be the Master. You actually thought they were saying all that was going on in their minds?

Palpatine + Vader + Luke - Palpatine= 2.

 

If I recall correctly, it may have been either in the ROTJ Novel or some other source that Vader in the scene where Luke uses the force to grab his lightsaber and strike the Emperor and Vader blocks is something like

" Its ashame I couldnt let the boy kill him yet, If he had killed the emperor he would leave and return to his friends, and that luke needed to fully embrace the darkside, before Vader would let Luke kill him."

Something like that...