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Sifo Dyas could be mistaken for Qui-Gon

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by JMaster Luke, Aug 27, 2010.

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  1. JMaster Luke

    JMaster Luke Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 7, 2000
    I'm sure this has been brought but, but wouldn't you think that when Obi-Wan is talking about Sifo Dyas that a casual viewer would mistaken him for Qui-Gon?

    Obi-Wan says things like "Sifo Dyas died ten years ago" "When my master first contacted you....". A casual fan would at least remember that Obi Wan had a master in the prevous movie that died. And they would remember anakin was a small boy and now he's a young adult. Thats about 10 years.

    One thing that i could think of is didn't the Kamino character say something like "Is Sifo Dyas still a member of the Jedi Council?" Which if a casual fan remembers, Qui-Gon was trying to be on the council but never got there.

    But i do wonder if for the heck of it, if it would of made sense to MAKE Qui-Gon the Jedi who ordered the clones. Then when Dooku says that Qui-Gon would of joined him then that would make the audience wonder if maybe he would?

    The only thing is.... WHY would qui-gon order the clones, but then again why would this other random jedi order the clones? (i dont know the story of Sifo Dyas so i really dont know his reason for ordering them.... but either way the movie doesn't say) IF maybe they USED the Jedi name of Sifo Dyas to order the clones just so the trail doesn't lead to Dooku then couldn't they just use another died Jedi name.........Qui-Gon?

    Anyways just some thoughts I wanted to through out there.
     
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  2. FalorWindrider

    FalorWindrider Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jun 7, 2010
    No. The characters are clearly different from how they are described. Sifo-Dyas was big on premonition, while Qui-Gon would have said the present was more important. Trying to conflate the characters is just trying to make Qui-Gon the Omniscient Mary Sue that fanon and eventually George Lucas tried to make him.
     
  3. Darth Kruel

    Darth Kruel Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 3, 2000
    Although Qui-Gon Jinn and Syfo Dyas died around the same period, they are two different characters. Syfo Dyas was a leading member on the Jedi Council as Lama Su implied while Qui-Gon never sat on the council because of his maverick ways. They are clearly two different characters.
     
  4. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    ^ Agreed. And if any casual viewer mistakes the characters for each other, that is pretty much their problem. In fairness, though, it's not as bad as the casual viewers who watched TPM and a)thought Anakin was Luke, and b)wondered where Darth Vader was. [face_laugh]
     
  5. Gary_Buchenara

    Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2009
    LOL. I get that too, especially from kids. "Didn't Luke get burned?"

    Despite that, you'd be hard pushed to confuse Syfo and Qui Gon. Sounds like Syfo was a lot more pro-establishment, and therefore probably a lot more clueless.
     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    He was a rebel like Qui-Gon, in the sense of doing things like contacting Kamino without the authorization of the Council.
     
  7. Dark_Paoki

    Dark_Paoki Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 22, 2010
    With all this discussion, I am concluding that Lucas non only hadn't a six movies script in his mind, but I don't even think that he had AOTC when he made TPM...

    If he did, I think that Dooku would have played a role in TPM....He is by far a very major character in the series, to be simply introduced in AOTC, coming out of the blue and saying "Oh hello Obi Wan, I am Qui Gon's master, I noone ever mentioned me back in TPM, but never mind, I left the Jedi Order because Qui Gon's death devastated me"...

    We see other "useless" Jedi in the council in TPM and I think that it would be much better if Dooku was a member of the Council in TPM...
     
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  8. JMaster Luke

    JMaster Luke Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 7, 2000
    ^^^ 100% agree. Dooku should of been in tpm. but he wasnt even in georges mind at the time.
     
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  9. Orvakki

    Orvakki Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 9, 2010
    To be honest, I thought Sio Dyas was Qui-Gon and did research into it because of course not knowing who Sifo Dyas was it was a reasonable explanation. Of course, now I now they are two different people.
     
  10. Gary_Buchenara

    Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2009

    Good point. A leading member of the Jedi Council he may have been, but a bit of a sneaky one...
     
  11. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Ehh, Qui-Gon was always gonna be the super-Jedi of the prequels as far as Force Ghosting went. His name is a shabby translation of the Arabic for spirit {djinn/Jinn) and the Mandarin for life force(Qui-Gon).

    "Life Force Spirit"....hmm gee, nah George must have just done that by accident and been like "hey cool!" a few years later. :rolleyes:



    Anyway, while it's tough to say just what Qui-Gon would have thought of the clone army as he's dead by the time it appears, but from what we get in TPM I don't think he'd be much of a fan.
     
  12. Gary_Buchenara

    Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2009
    Definitely. A special role as far as the force is concerned was set aside for QGJ from the get go.
     
  13. mjerome3

    mjerome3 Jedi Knight star 6

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    May 11, 2000
    When Obi-Wan Kenobi told Lama Su that Master Syo Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, I'm willing to bet that everyone instantly thought of Qui-Gon Jinn. I did too. But as mentioned earlier the thing that separates Qui-Gon Jinn and Syfo Dyas is that one was on the Jedi Council while the other wasn't. If Qui-Gon placed an order for a clone army he would have mentioned it to Mace Windu, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council.
     
  14. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 30, 2001
    Sifo-Dyas - A name change during production made him a real Jedi. But the ultimate conclusion (in the movie) from the Jedi is that Dyas died before the army was placed and thus didn't do it. So was this the best route to take? As has been stated, their might have been confusion with casual audience members mistaking him for someone else.

    Sido-Dyas - The original name is an obvious hint towards Sidious. It would have been a fake name used by the Dark Lord. Obi-Wan would have instantly recognized the name is fake but wouldn't have pieced the two names together until Dooku drops the Sidious name later. But when Lama Su mentions Sido-Dyas, Obi-Wan wouldn't know to cover for anything and thus he likely would have told Su that there was no such Jedi. Imagine the horror on Lama Su's cgi face. Probably would have looked like E.T. This is partially why I believe they changed the name because the script kept moving forward without the natural follow up from Obi-Wan. So Lucas (and Hales?) changed it to a real Jedi so that he could say he died "almost" ten years ago and thus keep Lama Su in place. Of course then the dialogue gets kinda ugly when Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace he was under the impression he was killed before "almost ten years ago" which is to tell us he didn't do it but makes little sense if Obi-Wan was covering up the time of his death before he knew what he was covering up... but thats another matter.

    Qui-Gon Jinn - The point of using this name would not be to put doubt in star wars fans, but to be a slap to Obi-Wan's face from Darth Sidious. I mean Obi-Wan could have said Jinn died 10 years ago and Lama Su could have continued on just thinking he died after the order was placed. And since Jinn didn't really do it it wouldn't conflict with the rule of two in so far as Dooku erasing Kamino from the archives during a time period in which Maul was alive.



    Conclusion: I think Lucas (and Hales?) realized during filming in the summer of 2000 that the name Sido-Dyas is too close of a link to Sidious given what is presented later and thus had to be changed without causing too much damage to the storyline. So Lucas changed one letter and only needed (in his mind) to change the dialogue in one or two scenes. I doubt Qui-Gon Jinn came to their minds at the time and had they used that name, a bit more would have had to have been rewritten. Remember, the domain name of SIDODYAS was registered well into the summer of 2000 suggesting the name change didn't come until principal photography was wrapping up or even later in production.

    Sido-Dyas would have made for a good choice had the script reflected the fallback from using it, but since it didn't the name had to be changed and Syfo-Dyas was sort of a plan b that tried to patch things up without refilming a bunch of scenes.
     
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  15. luvlucas-com

    luvlucas-com Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Sep 1, 2009
    sifo dyas is the biggest plot hole in the entire saga.also was it dyas or dooku who erased kaminos location,i remember lucas actualy saying in a interview he would explain it in episode 3 but he never did.

    and like people have said before lucas really hadnt figured out the ins and outs of aotc when he wrote tpm or dooku would of been init or mentioned same with sifo dyas. lucas could insert dooku into the council scenes,the jedis arriving on naboo,qui-gons funeral and perhaps even when yoda and mace are talking about the sith on the bluray. or get christopher lee in before he dies {sorry he is old} and have a short scene of dooku and sifo after maces and yodas conversation.
     
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  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    No, that was just Obi-Wan's impression. The ultimate conclusion is that they don't know for certain ( in other words they don't reach a definitive conclusion in the film ).

    In the EU it was said to have been Dooku.
     
  17. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 30, 2001

    When Mace and Yoda didn't correct his impression, I took that as a sign that Obi-Wan was correct and Lucas wanted to move away from Dyas being involved. Especially since Sifo-Dyas is never mentioned again.
     
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    However, this was right after they told Obi-Wan not to assume anything. If they practice what they preach, they also do not assume his initial impression regarding Sifo-Dyas to be a certainty.
     
  19. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 30, 2001
    And yet they do not correct him on his "impression." How can they expect him to carry out an investigation if they're holding back facts? And if they didn't know, how hard is it to check? It was written so that we could move on from Dyas.

    P.S. As if the Jedi always practice what they preach. :p
     
  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    They're not holding back any facts, because they don't know for certain.

    Yoda had to go to Kamino, apparently. However, as far as "checking" is concerned, Obi-Wan's timeframe wasn't at all specific, and that's the problem -- given two events which both happened "almost ten years ago", either one could have happened first.

    We're left with "whoever placed that order", not exactly a definitive endorsement for either alternative.
     
  21. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 30, 2001

    Which is why later on in the story...... oh wait, Dyas is never mentioned again. Because finding out when Dyas died isn't important or because they already believe he was dead before the order was placed and thus no need to check?




    What are you talking about? I'm talking about them dialing down to Jocasta Nu and asking when Dyas died while they're on the phone with Obi-Wan. Yoda flies to Kamino to inspect and take custody of the army to back up the Jedi flying to Geonosis.


    Yet for the purpose of the film, the audience is already told by Obi-Wan that he believes Dyas was dead before the order was placed. This scene is the last the audience hears on the subject of Sifo-Dyas in the saga. The audience is meant to trust Obi-Wan here so that the investigation can move on to interrogating Jango Fett to find the truth.

     
  22. shanerjedi

    shanerjedi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Mar 17, 2010
    To be fair, Yoda came in ESB though.

    But I do agree in wanting more Dooku. But I think that's because I think his character as-is is so slight.

    I still would've liked Dooku and Qui-Gon to be the same character(without the sithi-ness).
     
  23. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    LOE.

    Maybe it took them a while to find his body and they don't know exactly when he died. On the clone end, as far as what is shown explicitly in the film is concerned, Obi-Wan's dealing with imprecise information from Lama Su in the first place.

    In the EU he also discovers that Sifo-Dyas was indeed alive long enough to make the initial contact with Kamino. Thus, in that continuity, if the Jedi had been certain Sifo was dead when the order was placed, they would have been wrong.
     
  24. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 30, 2001

    For those still confused, he means the expanded universe book known as "Labyrinth of Evil" by James Luceno. Entertaining book.




    As far as the film is concerned we are given what we need to know from Obi-Wan Kenobi so that the story can move on.




    Fortunately that is the expanded universe where Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers and Ki-Adi-Mundi is a Jedi Knight on Council with wives. I'll just stick with the films on this one where Obi-Wan says he was dead before the order was placed, Mace and Yoda didn't correct him, and the story moved on without ever mentioning Dyas again.

     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    At one point it was believed that ROTS would feature the answer to this mystery. If it had been generally assumed that the question was in fact answered in AOTC itself, that would not have been the case. The story moves on just fine without the assumption that the question has been definitively answered.

    Except Obi-Wan and Owen are not actually brothers in the present-day EU continuity, because that continuity reflects the PT and is intended to be consistent with it. Similarly, LOE is consistent with the PT due to the fact that AOTC does not definitively prove which of these two events from "almost ten years ago" happened first. Mace and Yoda do not correct Obi-Wan because there is nothing to correct; his impression is his impression, and all he said was "almost ten years ago".
     
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