Simple Tricks

Narundi I believe Kyp was trying to trick Fen into killing him so he wouldn't be killing himself while if he'd manipulated Fen's body and pulled the trigger with her hand or through the Force, for a Jedi that's no different that putting a blaster to his head and pulling the trigger himself. Kyp's too much of a coward and doesn't really feel that strongly that he should die to actually do the deed.



I believe the Kyp here and the Kyp in the NJO is a logical progression even if it wasn't intended that way.

I don't remember exactly how long but it isn't that far after the events of the JAT in Simple Tricks and at this point Kyp is semi-legit remorseful, at this time. Kyp's the type who can rationalize almost anything and what obviously happens between Simple Tricks and the NJO is that Kyp has successfully rationalized his mass murders as perhaps the end justifies the means and he's convinced himself of this by the NJO so I don't believe we'll see him turn around at all in the NJO.

My personal opinion is Kyp never completely left the dark side. He's not a complete dark jedi but he's been way more influenced by the dark side since he supposedly rejoined the light side than Luke Skywalker ever was (according to Zahn's lame, see through explanation for Luke's behavior pre-HoT) and if anything now he's even more in the dark side than he'd been before the YV show up. I wouldn't be suprised if Kyp's sees the YV as a religious fanatic sees an infidel, any and all means of stopping and/or killing that person are perfectly alright because all that matters is the end result.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if Kyp's sees the YV as a religious fanatic sees an infidel, any and all means of stopping and/or killing that person are perfectly alright because all that matters is the end result.

The YV are also religious fanatics, don't forget. I think the entire NJO eerily shadows our present day conflicts with groups like the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, not to mention lots of right-wingist groups here in the US. The entire NJO is about this alien race with religious views that machines are an abomination to the gods and that all infidels should either be converted or gotten rid of. It's just scary how real all this seems! I know they couldn't have known when they started that something so awful as the WTC attacks would have happened, but the parallels are striking. But yes, Kyp does think the ends justify the means, but so do the Vong. Neither one of them set terribly good examples. Both have some elements of evil, but they also have in common the fact that they act according to what they themselves see as the right thing to do. Who's to tell the Vong that "hey, your God is wrong dudes. Machines are the way to go."? They'd be gutted on the spot!

That's just my .02

Jae Angel

 

On the subject of Kyp Durron:
Call the man stupid, insipid, arrogant, ignorant, but PLEASE. Stop it with the "He's really a Sith and I just know that his character is still on the dark side, blablablah." By the way, no,that was not a direct quote, I was attempting to summarize many of the complaints I've seen about Kyp. Kyp has been in fights with the vong along side Luke, the Solo kids, and Corran, and never have they described his presence as one of the darkside. I don't care how much you dislike his use of Jaina for "his own" ends, or his lack of immense outward grief over the deaths of members of the Dozen. He has not been frying vong with force lightning, or similar dark jedi tactics. Kyp is NOT EVIL! Everywhere he goes, he defends life, and promotes rampant destruction only when it is dealt to the vong, those whom he sees as the enemies of life. Kyp just tends to see the universe in terms of black and white, which may or may not be correct. Yes, he "used" Jaina to destroy a worldship. Were not Ben and Yoda trying to get Luke to kill Vader for them, a man who was Luke's own father? They didn't tell Luke about that, though, did they? Ben said, that from a certain point of view, Vader had indeed killed Anakin, which is what they had told Luke in the first place. Now, maybe the Worldship that Kyp convinced Jaina to help destroy was not a superweapon in the strictest sense of planet/star-destroying superweapons. However, from a certain point of view the Worldship was far greater than a Death Star, or a Suncrusher. The worldship is the weapon the vong intend to use to repopulate those worlds that they conquer. Kyp sees that the destruction of the worldship will isolate much of the vong population, and he does what even ObiWan and Yoda did: he gives the NR military a certain point of view, maybe not all the facts, but a certain point of view on the worldship. Jaina would never had helped had she had all the facts. The question remains, though, had Ben told Luke the entire truth, would Luke have ever faced Vader? The Jedi have never been above the "use" of others, and yes, sometimes the ends do justify the means. So stop painting Kyp like some evil-hearted demon, and try to think of him as he is portrayed: a simple pragmatist, a man who sees a problem and immediately tries to solve it. His view may be simplified, but IMO it is not of the Dark Side.


Risste out.

 

Narundi,

The whole infidel angle and the similarities between Kyp's views and logic and most of the YV's views and reasoning. Now weather or not you think Kyp is evil will likely (indirectly but it will effect your view because of your view of what is evil or wrong) depend on if you think the YV are inherently evil, if their methods are evil or if they are not evil but just there (like a predator in the wild maybe).

The central conflict in the NJO with the religious aspect of the YV doesn't just shadow today's current version but is using a modal that is thousands of years old.



Risste,

I did not say Kyp has been using Dark Jedi or Sith powers. My feeling is Kyp is like I said in my previous post about the dark side's influence on him. This is the same thing as the supposed taint ('Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny' or about that) that Luke carried from DE to the later part of the HoT. I submit Kyp is in a similar situation but didn't try as hard to completely sever himself not just from active manifastions of Dark Side power but how it colors his thinking. We all know Kyp is arrogent, I think almost everybody can agree on that.

Kyp's view of right and wrong has sifted. Imagine a 360 degree circle. A pure Jedi's view of the Force and how it is to be used goes from zero degrees to about 20 degrees. A Sith or Dark Jedi goes from about 150 degrees to 210 degrees on the same circle. If I were to mark Kyp on this circle I would place him between roughly 30 degrees and 50 degrees. I hope that's intelligible, it makes sense to me though preferably I'd give that explanation with a pencil sketch to hope.

Also remember how easily in Kyp's early days (Jedi Search) he fell into using the Dark Side so easily. I believe the first time we see him using the Force (or if he used it before the first time both Kyp and the reader can concentrate on what he's doing with no other distractions) in his prison cell aboard a ISD in the Maw with his food tray. He's angry and scared (two Dark Side emotions) and he tries to peel a wrapper back with the Force and can't do it and thinks maybe he needs to be mad and he rips it off with the Dark Side of the Force.

Hmm, it's not very often in the NJO that Kyp has actually fought alongside Luke, the Solo kids and Corran. He's been too impatient (a Dark Side vulnerable trait) to wait for Luke or when Luke actually has a real plan he still won't stick around for the time it takes to set up.

I don't call what Kyp was doing before the YV invaded "Everywhere he goes, he defends life", far from it. He was in the OR attacking and killing beings he thought deserved it. Smugglers, pirates, slavers, semi-legit cargo haulers, etc. He made himself judge, jury and executioner based on his warped sense of right and wrong.

I have no problem with Kyp "using" Jaina like he did in Rebirth. Though I can't blame Jaina's reaction, for the most part, either.

Kyp's not a pragmatist, he's a twisted idealist if he's one or the other.

 

Ah Kyp, my old friend......



although i havent read the story simple tricks, upon reading the exerpts posted here and everyones comments, it seems to me that what would be more accurate here is to look at kyp like an attempted suicide victim. He was feeling sorry for himself and "wanted" to die, but it seems more likely that he wanted help.

Perhaps he was trying to get her to...respond with a little caring and feeling and "Kyp, of course people would mind if you died"...that kind of thing. And it seems pretty clear that, wether he used the force or not, he WAS trying to manipulate her in some direction by what he was saying to her, verbally and mentally.

As far as kyp being evil....no, hes not fully on the dark side. Maybe not even partially. But hes heading there. And while the skywalkers and solos and eveyrone else might not be sensing a "dark presense" they most certainly are picking up on something because every time they deal with him they all go, "oh great....its kyp." its not a positive experiance for any of them(at least, not till he wises up in SxS.)

And on that note, drawing a comparison to obi-wan telling luke Anakin was killed by vader(which has some merit as a point of view truth) Kyp presented his information to Jaina and the rest of the NR military in such a way as to present the world ship as something that it wasnt. Namely, some kind of star sucking super weapon thing. He wasnt ambiguous about what it did. He made a claim and thats what they acted on. It was a lie, plain and simple. Thats why Kyp sucks.

And honestly, its almost irrelevant what he did or why because of his little superiority speech at the end of rebirth when he admited to being adicted to power and stuff. He might be on a path to redemption, but its his own personal path that leads to him not feeling like a jerk to himself.

 

-"He might be on a path to redemption, but its his own personal path that leads to him not feeling like a jerk to himself."
Ummmm, call me stupid, I don't know what the above sentence means. Pls explain?

Anyway, I would argue that an absolute pragmatist IS a twisted idealist, but then perhaps my definitions are off. I agree that Kyp's set of guiding ethics is not the same as that of Luke, or especially Jacen. But IMO it isn't correct to consider one of those sets of morals above the others. As Ben said, there are many possible points of view on this subject, none of them being the absolute. To a pacifist, the ethics used by Jacen would probably seem best, and to a diehard Luke fan, whatever he says goes. For me, Kyp's no-nonsense view of the vong and the threat they pose seems the most realistic. Winning should be key in the minds of the jedi at this point, with some albeit less concern for the temptations of the dark side. Once again, I posted only that IMO Kyp is not the source of evil that many think he is. I think he is arrogant, and plenty deceitful, but not a "bad guy".

I did not say that Kyp fought "often" with the other jedi, only that he HAS. And never has anyone felt as though he were a distinct darkside presence. Got to go, thats it for now.


Risste out.

 

-"He might be on a path to redemption, but its his own personal path that leads to him not feeling like a jerk to himself."
Ummmm, call me stupid, I don't know what the above sentence means. Pls explain?


Nah, its not you, its me. I was in too much of a hurry to wrap it up.

What i meant was, he might be trying to redeem himself, but if he is, hes trying to do it so that he feels better about himself, not because hes trying to make ammends with the rest of the galaxy. Make more sense?

 

"And while the skywalkers and solos and eveyrone else might not be sensing a "dark presense" they most certainly are picking up on something because every time they deal with him they all go, "oh great....its kyp." its not a positive experiance for any of them(at least, not till he wises up in SxS.)"

I think it's more likely that they don't like him personally and find him annoying. If they were really picking up hints that Kyp was heading towards the darkside, I think they would attempt to deal with it. Luke hasn't done much of anything to stop Kyp's actions. Personally, I think this is because although they are not what he would do, he can't really find fault in them. They all needed to be done, with the possible, and I stress possible, exception of the Worldship.

"He's trying to do it so that he feels better about himself, not because hes trying to make ammends with the rest of the galaxy"

I've always viewed it as the opposite. He's stated in Vector Prime and Rebirth that he doesn't like what he's become. If he was trying to make himself feel better about himself, it would make sense that he'd try to make himself into a mainstream Jedi, not distance himself further. Rather, he's doing very visible actions, because he wants the public to see he's not just sitting on his hands. For the most part, the public has applauded what Kyp has done. I think he'd rather ruin his reputation within the jedi and the established government than be thought of insensitive to the plight of the common man.

 

The only reason why I believe that both Kyp and the YV have elements of evil is because they both believe that the ends justify the means. The ends justifying the means is a pretty bad philosophy, at least from the views thats christians, jews, and muslim hold. It basically says that it's ok to even kill innocent people as long as the end result is "good". And what's "good" for one group may just be awful for another. Look at the different examples through our history on Earth. The Taliban, the Nazis, the constant fights on the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I'm sure there are plenty more that I didn't list here. It seems that some groups have forgotten that fundamental "don't kill people" rule just so they can further their cause. Do I think they're evil for it? Yes I damn well do. But that's just my christian point of view. And people who will kill because of religion ARE in the minority on Earth.

Now, back to Star Wars. The majority of the YV we've seen are willing to die for their beliefs. To them the people of the NR are the evil ones that need to be taken care of. There aren't too many YV who have taken a step back and realized that not all NR citizens are bad people. We don't see any evidence of the YV thinking it's WRONG to kill people. That complicates things. From the point of view of the jedi, killing is wrong unless done in self defense. From the point of view of the YV everything possible must be done to rid the galaxy of infidels so that it might be pure again. It is a lot harder to judge then if they are evil or not. From the jedi standpoint they are. From the YV standpoint they aren't.

Jae Angel

 

Jedi Cryix, I see your, point, and I see why you would think that Kyp puts himself before the rest of the galaxy, heck, hes done it enough before. I also agree with Face on this, though. If Kyp really wanted just to prove that he was a "good jedi" to himself, then he could just never trust his own judgement again, having turned to the DS once. However, he hasn't done that, instead taking the responsibility on his own shoulders of making decisions, even command decisions for other people. I think this shows that he wants to prove his "worthiness" to the rest of the galaxy as well. He HAS said that he doesn't like what he has become...
I think my main point is that Kyp is doing what he sees as right, not neccessarily what IS, but what he thinks is. I agree with the sentiment that "The ends justifies the means." is a terrible philosophy, capable of transforming people into in human monsters. Sometimes it is neccessary to make a call on whether losing on principle is worth not winning in a dishonorable fashion. Take the use of strategic bombing by Britain in WWII. Was it neccessary? Perhaps not. Did it contribute greatly to Germany's defeat? Yes. The same comes with the use of the A-bomb.
These are macrocosms for the strategic dillema that the jedi face, and Kyp has decided to fight his enemy wherever and whenever he can. Not that he couldn't improve his ethics, but IMO he does operate according to what he sees as right. I think that it is most important, when speaking of the dark side, is whether the use of the force is in the end selfish or selfless. Kyp has no apparent ambitions, other than the annihilation of the vong, and does not IMO seek to gratify his own ends with his actions. That is why I think he is not Evil per se.

P.S. Cryix, thanx for clarifying...it makes much more sense when you put it that way.


Risste out.

 

Well said, Risste. I agree completely.