Lit Sith and Racism

Ah I see-so they both fell into a sort of mundane struggle for this World instead of focusing on the transcendent.

And why is obeying the Sith code mundane? It's a code that's for the individual to achieve liberation. Now the Sith often don't follow their own rules but I don't see how the Sith code is mundane. Ideally every Sith wants to transcend the chains of mortality and mortal existence entirely-becoming a god or something even greater.

 

Also on the note of fascism and the Sith. Fascism as an ideology is about extremist collectivism. The nation (or rather the party) above the individual. The Sith on the other hand, as their very code states, are about extremist individualism. The two couldn't be further opposites of each other. I'd even argue that a corrupted Jedi fits the tone of fascism more, as we see with Vader, rather than a true and red Sith.

 

The Sith from Bane(really Andeddu and Addas) to Palpatine also believed the strong have the right to rule the weak.

 

Which is another misconception when fascism is brought up. Strong ruling the weak is about a strong nation dominating 'weak ones'. It's got nothing to do with one individual ruling over another. The whole ideology of fascism is collectivism, it really doesn't work well with the Sith philosophy when you consider that the very end of the Sith Code goes about chains being broken through your personal strength and you being free. I'd argue that Sith philosophy is a lot more in line with feudalism. It's why genuine Sith Empires like the SWTOR one seemed more of a feudal state in nature. I don't count the Galactic Empire as a Sith state, nor would I say it was a wholly fascist state (at least not in the EU). It was a very big and complex entity, it had some elements that are fascist (COMPNOR) and some that could be seen as Sithish (Church of the Dark Side). Sheev used both the Empire and the Sith before it as just tools to advance his personal power. Vader genuinely believed in the extreme law and order enforcement aspect of it.

 

Sith ideology makes use of the Leninist apocryphal quote of "useful fools." The Sith create totalitarian fascist military states with cults of personality to make themselves God-Kings but there's nothing preventing them from doing this with communism, religion, corporatism, feudalism, or any other kind of government.

Ancient Sith Empire= Egyptian style god Kings.
Freedon Nadd = Monarchy
Exar Kun = Religion
Ulic Qel-Droma: Military dictatorship with the Krath Monarchy
Darth Vader= Military dictatorship
Vitiate's Sith=Religious Theocracy/Monarchy (Dark Side Feudalism)

Oh and I forget the name of the guy who didn't believe other people existed in KNIGHT ERRANT but he ran a very deliberately invoked juche-style North Korean communist state.

The Empire's ideology is peace through power and domination but this is distinct from Palpatine's ideology that peace is a lie.

In short, the Empire is fascist while the Emperor is feudalist. Notably, the Empire's heads were aware it was all a scam and they ruled in the interests of increasing their own power and maintaining that power.

This is a contrast to the First Order, which very much believes they exist to bring about galactic peace through power and its leadership believes it as well.

I'd argue that it's not even the CodeTM's fault the Sith become evil to the point of cartoonishness but the Dark SideTM. The Code is all about embracing your passions and self-liberation but the Dark Side is something which requires a person to be trapped in a constant state of anger, rage, and hate which inevitably is going to chip away at your sanity. Palpatine and Bane managed to "master" it by becoming living blackholes of hate to all living things.

However, by that point there's not really much left of you as a person to enjoy life.

Most Sith, by contrast, get caught up in petty dominance games and casual cruelty. Ironically, to truly follow the Sith Code, you'd need to have a somewhat more Jed'ai balanced view of the Force.

Which is also an issue for Prequel Jedi that they need to supplement the Light Side of the Force with enough emotion to not become blinded by dispassion and callousness.

 

Palpatine long term wanted to be God-King of the universe sucking everything else's life force into his will. Vitiate wanted to consume the universe achieve and gain everlasting immortality.

Aren't those end games the goal every sith acolyte should aspire to?

 

Palpatine is the endpoint which Bane aspired to, selfishness to the point of eradicating the universe.

I'd argue Valkorion/Vitiate is actually not a Sith, though.

Valkorion considered the SIth to be comically stupid and pathetic idiots who couldn't tie their own shoe-laces so he just gave them the bare minimum of rule and let the Dark Council run things until he could destroy it utterly along with the Republic. His "universe destroying bomb" wasn't going to hit Zakuul and would have left them, a fairly progressive technological utopia, to inherit the galaxy.

In short, Valkorion rejected Sith ideology and created the Knights of Zakuul because he believed a utopian justice-based society of loyalists was better than teaching your apprentices to hate and want to murder you. Which raised my opinion of Valkorion considerably as he was fully aware of the flaws inherent in the Sith System.

He's no more Sith than the LS Outlander aside from the fact he's an evil Force User. He realized a empty universe is pointless.

 

I'd add Kaan's Sith as a sort of cult of personality mixed with the intention of an eventual military dictatorship. He also knew how stupid the whole Sith ideology was, which is why I'd argue Bane wasn't a 'Sith hero'. He just made it clear that if you're not a backstabbing Randist-tier objectivist that wants to push that more than actually victory over your enemies, then you aren't welcome. And so Set left the building and went off to be a rockstar.

 

Palpatine didn't want to destroy the universe as he wasn't a Morgothian nihilist he wanted to rule as he told Plagueis rule and rule everything or nothing. He did see and wanted to eventually put into practice the notion that every living thing was but a mere extension of his will whose souls in essence would sustain his life.

Vitiate-as I understood was content rule over nothing after consuming everything as he was a void.

 

Are you familiar with Knights of the Eternal Throne?

Vitiate wasn't an omnicidal maniac. He was arguably the smartest Sith in the galaxy aside from Darth Marr.

 

Vitiate was the one pushing for emptying out the galaxy in the first place though. And his operations concerning draining life from planets had to be kept secret from most Sith Lords.

Most of the Sith in early SWTOR just wanted to conquer the galaxy and were doing a fair job of it, through first pushing their war effort as far as it can and then offering terms of a truce buying time in which they can entrench themselves in what used to Republic territory for a generation instead of just being near wiped out after one campaign like Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Revan/Malak. And Zakuul still conquered the galaxy just like the Sith would have if Vitiate ever tried to bring his A-game to table and they still ended up with a lot of subjects that hated them and wanted to overthrow them that Vitiate himself created in the conquered Sith. Valkorian's moral high ground is honestly lost to me as is the idea that he is more efficient as there were dozens of planets and space armadas worth of resources he had at his disposal for centuries that weren't going towards the side he actually wanted to succeed.

 

No, I don't follow the OR MMO stuff that much.

I'm guessing Vitiate or his alter ego Valkorion created this organization?

As for Vitiate seeing the flaws in the system-he got where he was because of the system-killing his father, ruling a planet at age 13 or something, and generally having no loyalty to anyone but himself.

 

The simple thing is that Vitiate's plan seems insane IF YOU'RE A SITH because his plan will kill everyone who is in the Sith Empire and the Republic.

Word of Bioware on Twitter is it would have destroyed everyone in the Republic and Sith Empire but not reached Zakuul or the Unknown Regions.

The assumption of insanity was the mistake of the Sith believing Vitiate cared about the Sith Empire when he considered them failures.

Valkorion isn't a Moral High GroundTM figure but more like the LS Sith Warrior and LS Sith Inquisitor in that he's picked up the Sith Empire DOESN'T WORK and the Sith philosophy is, fundamentally, stupid.

He's purely evil and selfish but Valkorion realizes that teaching OTHER people to be purely evil and selfish doesn't benefit HIM in any way. It's sort of the fact any sane person would note the Rule of Two is stupid because if you really are incredibly selfish, why would you teach your student to kill you? You have to be selfless to the point you want the Sith to be bigger than you but selfish everywhere else.

Valkorion created Zakuul as a place where he could chill out and live an enjoyable life surrounded by fawning worshipers, a family which loved him (he failed at this miserably but he TRIED), and various bodies which he could experience existence in a variety of ways to entertain himself. Killing the galaxy to become truly immortal or conquering it is just a means to an end.

The big difference between him and Palpatine is Valkorion is basically able to enjoy what "normal" people enjoy and has an understandable end-goal of a comfortable life basically. Also, surrounding himself with people who are actually loyal to him. It backfires because, of course, he's actually a horrible father and you can't teach people to be good when you're evil or you get an Imperial Knights situation where Senya wants to kill you for being a monster.

 

I'd say Palpatine pre-Dark Empire and Dark Empire Palpatine are two very different beings. The pre-death Palpatine mostly wanted to rule forever. Be the one and only Emperor and just enjoy himself with that power. Look up Palpatine's version of the Rule of One, he had no intention of ever being replaced. He pretty much did away with Darth Bane's code. Then in Dark Empire, he's fully an entity of the Dark Side, the closest thing we got to one. He doesn't have much plans or anything like that, he simply wants to consume everything and then move onto the next Galaxy. It's why pre-Endor Palpatine had an Empire where Force Users besides himself and Vader played a secondary role, Isard technically commanding non-Force using and Force using agents (Inquisitors) alike and then in Dark Empire its a Dark-side fueled and ran Empire.

Basically Vitiate/Valkorion gave up on the idea of a Sith Empire after being around them for so long. He gave up on the idea of the Sith working long-term, its why he built up Zakuul in secret. A perfect society (in his eyes) that would move in and destroy both Sith and Republic. The Sith were just a distraction, they were never 'his side' as he gave up on it as not working. He saw the failures of the Sith and the infighting feudalistic society they had become, in comparison to the enlightened despot that he was as Eternal Emperor of Zakuul.

 

The very short version is after founding the Sith Empire, Vitiate became disgusted with the Sith because as soon as he got close to getting a group together which could conquer the galaxy, everyone backstabbed each other and it all fell apart. He basically observed the "Chaotic Stupid" element of the Sith we've been debating here and Darth Bane said was the biggest flaw of the Sith but he developed a different way of dealing with it than Bane but still the same conclusion of "The majority of Sith had to die."

Vitiate went to a planet in the middle of the Unknown Regions and possessed a local human which he used to elevate the primitive Near-Humans there to become the most advanced race in the galaxy and taught a new order of Imperial Knights-esque Force Users on the planet called the Knights of Zakuul. The Knights of Zakuul following a balance of the Force where they use the Light and Dark to protect the Empire of Zakuul, enforce a rigid legalistic form of justice, and serve their God Emperor with absolute loyalty. He also had a family on this planet which he genuinely loved but abused the hell out of because he was, still, evil.

Vitiate, under the name Valkorion, then deliberately torpedoed the Sith Empire and made plans to kill it and the Galactic Republic which the Jedi Knight prevented.

When that failed, he sent out the Zakuul Navy (aided by ancient technology of the kind which you can trip over in the Unknown Regions) which conquered both the Republic and Sith Empire. He then offers the PC and Marr a chance to join the Zakuul Empire, basically arguing if you're a Sith PC, that, "These guys are IDIOTS. Why would you want to save them?"

 

I'd argue that Valkorion probably didn't want to directly conquer them, just make them tributary states, which is pretty much just what he did. They can do as they like in terms of internal governance and fighting each other, they just shouldn't be allowed to get to the level of opposing him. From the dialogues, I think that he believes there can be nothing as perfect as Zakuul and the worlds directly under its control.

 

Mind you, whatever his plan was after conquering them, Arcann screwed it up.

 

Seems to me his character was utterly changed-how is it he goes from terrible dark overlord who people are afraid to even mention to somebody who wants a utopia and has totally abandoned Sith doctrine?

Or am I misunderstanding?

 

Valkorion wants a utopia for himself, where a society is fully peaceful yet ready to fight with advanced weaponry and droids. He doesn't want to 'spread this', he pretty much just wants a personal playground of an empire that WOULDN'T backstab him the first chance they get, but rather be extremely loyal, as he made the Knights of Zakuul be. He is still a dictator and evil overlord, but he's more of an enlightened despot. Kneel, and you'll get better living standards than any world in the Republic or Sith Empire can provide. So he gets a loyal population and Force Users that won't backstab him, essentially letting him rule forever. He realized that twirling his moustache while being surrounded by others who do the same is not a good idea on how to run things if you want to be an immortal God-Emperor.

 

Means to an end or not, he still had to go and try to conquer the galaxy, thereby introducing Zakuul as an enemy to Republic, the Empire, the Sith and the Jedi, try to subjegate them, which won't work no matter how good a father he could have been because he decided to build that Sith Empire, traitorous past the point of self-interest as they are, in the first place.

If Valkorian really just wanted to be immortal and rule an utterly loyal planet in peace that's exactly what he'd be doing right now. It wasn't enough for him. So I'd say he's still just a bit more Sith then a LS Outlander, enough to sabotage himself.

 

Eh, I'd disagree Palpatine I think pre Endor wanted to learn to become truly immortal-as in can't be killed, can't grow sick, will see the universe until its end. Cloning bodies of himself seemed like a poor man's solution to what he really wanted to achieve.

 

Basically, the Darth Nihilus/Palpatine hybrid turned out to have been a persona Vitiate adopted to get the Sith and Jedi to misread his motives.

And yes, it was a retcon.

 

Eh, I'd disagree Palpatine I think pre Endor wanted to learn to become truly immortal-as in can't be killed, can't grow sick, will see the universe until its end. Cloning bodies of himself seemed like a poor man's solution to what he really wanted to achieve.[/quote]

The silly Chosen One business actually made sense for Dark Empire Legends as Palpatine wanted to use the Skywalker bloodline to become EVEN MORE powerful.

 

That makes the Vergere retcon seem sensible in comparison.

 

Except it does kind of create a really interesting character from a very boring one-dimensional one.