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PT Sith Exposed: Evacuation of the Jedi Temple/Warning to the Jedi

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Charlie512, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. MRCynical

    MRCynical Jedi Knight star 1

    Oct 7, 2008
    But if Anakin hadn't been coming (say if he was offworld when Mace Windu learned Palpatine was the Sith Lord) then Palpatine would have been going all-out in their duel (as he did against Yoda) rather than stalling for time. In the films Palpatine has a clear shot at putting his saber through Mace Windu's chest, and doesn't take it. That can only mean he was orchestrating the duel to turn out the way he did, knowing that (based on EU evidence) in a choice between Mace Windu and Palpatine, Anakin would inevitably choose the latter.
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Nov 20, 2012
    Why didn't Mace and friends bring along some clone troopers to arrest Palpatine?
  3. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 5, 2012
    As one of the order's best swordsman, Mace was in control throughout the duel. When he was "wide open," it's clear that he was trying to lure him into attacking, which Mace then uses to his advantage. It took a little while for Mace to adapt to fighting him, but once he was in control, Palpatine was clearly on the defensive. He was visibly struggling.

    Also, if it was Palpatine's plan all along to look weak in front of Anakin, why would he throw a fight against Mace? By this logic, couldn't he have just killed Mace, and taken on one of the weaker Jedi one-on-one?

    I honestly don't believe that Palpatine planned out that Anakin was certain to come back. Palpatine clearly intended to kill all the Jedi that had come to arrest him. Once Anakin actually showed up, that's when he put on a show and acted in front of Anakin.
  4. Skelter

    Skelter Jedi Padawan star 1

    Oct 31, 2012
    Mace beat Palps fare and square...George said so, and that's enough for me.
  5. Minez01

    Minez01 Jedi Master star 1

    Nov 12, 2005
    I think it's pretty hard to figure out who knew what was about to happen. Maybe Palpatine had something planned for when Anakin showed up, or maybe it was just a coincidence of the situation. As I said though, even though Mace had him on the ground and almost fully "beaten", it's also probably wrong to assume that the duel would have ended there and then - I don't think Palpatine would simply have sat there and let himself get cut up by Mace. And if Anakin never showed, I would think that then we would finally have seen the Palpatine v Mace duel where no one has any intention other than killing their opponent.
  6. Legacy Jedi Endordude

    Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Knight star 3

    Sep 9, 2012
    But it was also clearly stated that the Jedi were not big fans of the senate, and not to mention Palpatine has a great deal of control in the senate and the whole republic.

    I do agree though, notifying them would have been a better idea, and to repeat the same thing everyone else have been say, the Jedi are becoming over confident, maybe not all of them, but as for the ones higher up in the order it's almost undeniable.

    One of the many mysteries of star wars!

    It's quite possible that it could have been sneaked in, but who ever did that must have been very cleaver! Hmm, now who could do something like that.................
  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Orders are not programmed in the clones. If anything is "programmed" it is loyalty to the Republic and receptivity to orders in general. This was the point of the clones as explained in AOTC, not programming orders into them.
  8. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013
    They erred on this point in two levels.

    First, they were strategically stupid. By confronting Palpatine in private, they are ignoring appearances and politics and certainly making things look like it's a Jedi coup even if it's not. They put themselves in this situation where they could be blamed for a revolution. And allowed a situation where Palpatine can reveal his true identity to the Jedi yet still maintain the facade of kindly old chancellor in public. Had they confronted him publicly, he would have had to out his true nature for all to see or he would have maintained the public charade and 4 Jedi would still be alive.

    Second, they did show disdain for the democratic processes that still remained and failed to rally the citizens of the GFFA (although they are typically absent from the story and/or uninvolved in the conflict).
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  9. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Dec 17, 2011

    It could only mean that yes.
  10. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Dec 17, 2011
    What makes you say that?

    I'm sorry I'm confused.

    "Execute Order 66"

    That sounds like a programmed order.
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    It (in the EU) is one of a series of contingency orders- listing a scenario, and the appropriate response.
  12. FARK2005

    FARK2005 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 3, 2012
    Not necessarily. You have two highly skilled and very experienced swordsmen facing off and such people will try and bait their opponent into making a mistake. Thus, it’s very likely that Mace deliberately exposed himself, but Sidious recognized it was a trap and did not fall into it.
  13. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008

    From the moment Luke discovered that Obi-Wan had lied to him, I have viewed the Jedi as flawed beings. This doesn't bother me. If they had been all knowing or all perfect, they would have bored me senseless. To this day, I still wonder why so many fans had expected them to be perfect or near perfect.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  14. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 23, 2000
    How about "turning Anakin against the Jedi" for 500, Alex? PalpSidious wants Anakin to believe that all the Jedi are the "evil traitors" that he says they are and what better way to do it than by making himself look defenseless against Mace, who has him cornered with his lightsaber pointed at PalpSidious' face. PalpSidious knows that he is Anakin's only hope of saving Padme and would never let anything happen to him.

    Turns out, he was right.

    If PalpSidious can sense Anakin's presence from another planet, then he can sense him returning to his office so yes, he did plan out that Anakin was certain to come to his rescue. After all, he gave Anakin the idea that he has the power to save Padme's life so he knows that Anakin will go through fire (figuratively speaking) to make sure nobody harms PalpSidious. Another thing, PalpSidious couldn't take on one of the weaker Jedi because they aren't as much as a threat to him like Mace was.
  15. Darthbane2007

    Darthbane2007 Jedi Knight star 4

    Oct 31, 2007
    The thing was is that even though Anakin told him palpatine was a sith lord, Mace Windu I think was still skeptical of the claim. He along with Agen Kolar, Sasaee Tiin, & Kit Fisto were only going to make sure Palpatine gave up his emergency powers

    But you do bring up an interesting point. Why didn't the jedi of this era have several hidden bases around the galaxy?
  16. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013
    It could also mean Sidious gave Mace a freebie, showing how easily he was already defeated. This happens in movie sword fights all the time.
  17. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013
    Being flawed is fine, nobody expected demi-gods. I think we did, however, expect a certain level of competency. Combined with the revelation they were lazy, cold, stoic, unfeeling eunuchs, it no longer seemed very noble to be a Jedi.

    Again, this is a basic complaint with George Lucas' storytelling, specifically making everyone a blithering idiot except for Sidious. It would have been much more entertaining for an elaborate cat and mouse game to develop where both sides are evenly matched but that's not George's style. He has to overinflate the winner and take the air out of the loser to emphasize how great the winner is.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Then watch AOTC again.

    It sounds like a command to execute Order 66. Nothing there about programming.
    ILNP likes this.
  19. Lady_Misty

    Lady_Misty Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 21, 2007
    The Sith had been planning the destruction of the Jedi before Yoda had been born or became a Padawan.

    The Jedi believed that the Sith to be gone for good. So they were scrambling to figure out what the Sith were up to. The Jedi Order had been complacent in the way of things.

    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

    "The Starman and Moon Goddess."
  20. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 23, 2000

    I don't think that all the characters are blithering idiots. How was anyone suppose to know that the leader of the Republic is secretly an evil sorceror who is plotting to kill them and abolish their government by staging a galaxy-wide war? The Jedi's senses aren't as attuned as it used to be due to the Dark Side of the Force clouding their vision which is why they couldn't sense PalpSidious until it was too late. When Mace Windu didn't evacuate the Jedi Temple or warn the other Jedi, it was because he didn't expect that he would fail to kill PalpSidious nor that Anakin will betray him and the entire Jedi Order.
  21. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013

    It's been hashed over many times, but to mount a relatively brief summary, here are questions the Jedi could have and should have asked that would illuminate their problem:

    • In TPM: Why blockade Naboo, and not some other planet? Why did the Sith reappear after a 1,000 year absence then and there? What were the Nemoidians' motivations (not only to us, the viewer, but in-galaxy)? Who benefitted from the crisis?
    • Between TPM and AOTC: Investigate the events of Naboo a little more than not at all. Arwan_Fenn will jump in and say that just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I will say that the investigation didn't advance in the 10 years so either the Jedi didn't investigate or they are incompetent, because not only should they have asked the questions above but they had the Nemoidians in custody. Interrogate them. Waterboard them. Monitor their communications (that alone would have turned up communication with Sidious). Surveil their movements. Monitor communications between them and Coruscant.
    • In AOTC: Assasination attempt on Senator from Naboo (there's that planet again) who is leader of opposition to creating a clone army. Assassin runs to Camino where an army nobody ordered 10 years ago (there's that time period again) is being readied for the Republic. Obi Wan goes there and finds it was ordered by Syfo Dyas, whom was killed 10 years ago (there's that time period again). The assassin then runs directly from the planet making the clone army for the republic to Geonosis, where the separatist leaders are gathered. Warning, Warning! You have a direct link between the bad guys and the army nobody ordered, you morons! Not to mention the giant red flag that something that was already done behind your back just happens to coincidentally be a hot debate in the Senate at this very moment. Gee, idiots, could someone be trying to retroactively approve something they've already done? The Jedi then proceed to take delivery of and use this clone army nobody ordered without asking any further questions. Morons!
    • Palpatine was operating FROM CORUSCANT. Monitor communications from Coruscant to the bad guys.
    • The guy in the opera telling Anakin how much he hates the Jedi and all the benefits of being a Sith Lord, might be a Sith Lord.
    • You suspect there is a Sith in or near the senate. You have a midichlorian counter. Test people's midichlorian count.
    • You suspect Palpatine is at very least under the influence of a Sith Lord. Watch him 24/7 and you'll discover him disappearing into the abandoned industrial zone.
    • Mace's attempted coup was brainless in about 30 different ways. There was no way for it to succeed. Gather evidence (something they should have been doing for the last 15 years), present it to the Senate, arrest Palpatine in public, where he would have to reveal his true identity to fight back.
    Charlie512 likes this.
  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    This is hilarious. I love it when people take the stupid arguments from RLM and try to pass it off as their own like nobody on this forum has seen them before.

    How would the Jedi find and monitor secret CIS comm channels? And why would they assume Palpatine was leading the Seps?
    So is everyone who has misguided understandings of the Jedi and the Sith a SIth Lord?
    Where would the Jedi get authority to do a blood test of the entire Senate - on suspicion that one of then belongs to an ancient order none of them even believe exists? In case you don't remember the Jedi serve the Senate, no the other way around.
    Spying on the Chief of State during wartime? Not a the brightest idea or a good way of having people on your side should he turn out to be a baddie, in case you didn't hear Anakin in ROTS, that's treason.
    Mace's plan certainly could have been improved upon, but brainless it was not. You said it was brainless in 30 different ways. Name 10.
    ILNP likes this.
  23. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    1. Why Naboo? Because it Palpatine's home planet. He would have directed the Trade Federation to look at it in particular. Of course, the reasons he would have told them was because it was out of the way (quite close to the very edge of the Republic), wealthy, and had no army. Why do the Sith appear then and there? Because they're finally in position to attack obviously. Why does Tarkin join the Empire? As to the Neimoidians -- it's not hard to think of a plethora of reasons that a greedy corporation might have to exploit a peaceful, out-of the way world.

    2. Who says the Jedi are in charge of investigations? The Trade Federation has a seat in the Senate and Sio Bibble remarks that after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still Viceroy of the Trade Federation. The Jedi obviously can't touch them and the investigation into the Sith isn't going to go far with their only known Sith dead. The Jedi can't just interrogate the Trade Federation -- the films (AOTC) demonstrate that they escaped criminal prosecution. If you find this unbelievable, then consider that basically no one on Wall Street was held accountable for causing the Great Recession and that large corporations frequently (and continue to) get away with exploiting workers, especially in third world nations.

    3. What would you have done in the Jedi's place? There was an army currently planning to force them to accede to any demands. It was either take the clones or be overrun -- neither of which is a particularly tasteful option. Moreover, I think you forget that the Jedi serve the Senate and it's the Senate that decides whether or not to use the army (through granting emergency powers). The Jedi have sworn their allegiance to this government and it is their duty to obey. Do you really think the Senators are going to hesitate in accepting an army when they've seen that the Separatists are willing to have a Senator (Padmé) executed simply for trying to free a captive Jedi? I don't think so.

    4. Coruscant is a planet of trillions. Try monitoring that feasibly.

    5. Considering Anakin's known that guy for thirteen years, one can understand why he might not want to believe such a thing. Additionally, given that Anakin's faith in the Jedi has recently been shaken, he might not find it so odd that Palpatine is comparing them to the Sith. It's a nice, short-hand way of telling Anakin that the Jedi are not better than the people they condemn as their mortal enemies.

    6. Because it's not possible to tamper with the results of a blood test. Such a thing has never conceivably happened.

    7. "They want me to spy on the Chancellor" -- the Jedi do investigate Palpatine, but note that this is at the end of the war when they have finally begun to see the end of the fighting. The Jedi are fighting a galactic-scale war and they aren't going to have the same capacity to investigate as they would during peacetime. A lot of these duties will have to be relegated to other portions of the government, which are more susceptible to manipulation by Palpatine.

    8. Mace likely saw it as too great a risk that Palpatine would get away. "He has control of the courts and the Senate. He's too dangerous to be left alive." If he went ahead and killed Palpatine, then the Jedi might face serious repercussions, but at least the galaxy would be out from under the thumb of a Sith lord. Trying to take him into custody, though, would be a gamble. Nute Gunray's lack of prosecutions shows that the courts are hopelessly corrupt and Palpatine himself had been manipulating the system for years. Furthermore, the man had immense popular support -- the Senate thunderously applauded him when he made himself dictator. Moreover, Mace was afraid -- "our worst fears have been realized" -- and likely acted rashly, hoping to ensure that Palpatine was taken out as soon as possible. If they arrested Palpatine, there's no guarantee that he would have revealed his Sith powers in public. And if he was released, where would that leave the Jedi? While the galaxy would still be under Palpatine's control...
  24. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013
    I love when people don't answer the basic logic and try to say "RLM said it so it's invalid". It's pretty obvious to anybody who stops to ask a question.

    It didn't take RLM to point out the Jedi are complete morons with what's in front of their faces in AOTC. People made the argument long before the RLM reviews came on the scene. AOTC came out in 2002; the RLM review of it came out in 2010.

    And by the way, RLM never made the point about WHY NABOO, why THEN, why THERE? That's basic criminology.

    You act like it's some far fetched proprietary notion to ask a question.

    They know where the CIS is, who their leaders are, and could monitor their communications by intercepting them and surveling them. The way law enforcement does today, in real life. You have a suspect, did you forget that part? I'm not even talking about Sidious, I'm talking about the Nemoidians. Put them under a microscope. You'd discover they are communicating with someone on Coruscant. Put a tracker on Dooku, you'd find he's going to Coruscant too. Strange for the leader of the CIS, isn't it?

    No, but people who know sith legends and know all about the benefits of being a sith might be... Especially after he has urged you to kill someone minutes earlier.

    Same place they got the authority to arrest Palpatine after it was too late?

    I'm sure they could have proposed this to the Senate and forced their hands, got them to agree. Or they could have done it covertly and used it as evidence behind the scenes.

    Here's a few to whet your whistle.

    (1) They did not even consider going to the senate, to keep official government in the loop.
    (2) They had evidence against Palpatine, while the Senate was in session, and did not use it. They didn't even try to counter Palpatine's narrative in public. While Padme sat there, could she have maybe said something?
    (3) They did not even concern themselves with the political aspects, i.e. how this would appear to the rest of the government, or the citizens. They just rushed, hot headed, to capture or kill the Emperor. What happened to "Patience; use the force; think"?
    (4) They didn't take enough Jedi to get the job done. Just like in TPM "all our resources" meant 2 Jedi.
    (5) They didn't think through the possible outcomes.
    (6) They didn't plan for any contingencies before hand. What were they doing for 15 years?
    (7) If they successfully arrest Palpatine, he wins -- the Jedi appear to have lead a coup. And he owns the courts.
    (8) If they kill Palpatine, he wins (aside from being dead) -- the Jedi did lead a coup.
    (9) By confronting Palpatine in private there is no evidence of what goes down, and Palpatine is free to unleash hell.
    (10) Had they confronted Palpatine in public, he would either (a) reveal his true nature, discrediting him, or (b) have to play along and submit to the arrest, which would have at very least bought the Jedi more time to assemble a credible package of evidence against him.

    Need more?
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  25. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

    Apr 12, 2013
    DING DING DING! Had the Jedi asked that question, they would have figured out why Naboo. But they didn't ask the question because they're morons.

    Then ask why the Sith would appear there and then after 1000 years. Obviously because they are behind it. DING DING DING. Another question the Jedi did not ask, because they are morons.

    "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi" -- no duh, Mace, you idiot. How about doing something about it?
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.