Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Charlie512, Apr 24, 2013.
They are still looking for a hidden Sith, right?
Having a high midichlorian count doesn't make one automatically a Sith Lord. That's circumstantial evidence and the Jedi are going to need a lot more than that. And yes they are looking for the Sith Lord and that's why they send Anakin to spy on Palpatine. They are trying to uncover his identity and gather evidence but I don't think they want to alert the Sith Lord that they are investigating his connections with the Senate or Palpatine. Going before the Senate and demanding a midichlorian test (which I again say they don't have the authority to do) would show their hand to the Sith.
Due to Palpatine's power it's very likely his force sensitivity is up their with Yoda's or even higher.
In TPM, it was made clear that Yoda had the highest force sensitivity amongst all of the Jedi. So Palpatine being in that area would have been very telling of who he was.
Either way though, I don't get what this has to do with the Jedi not taking the proper action after discovering that Palps was a Sith.
It's not automatic but it would be one hell of a clue to pay more attention to that person. In a story where the Jedi are completely inept and unable to collect a shred of evidence in 15 years, it's huge.
You keep saying the Jedi are fools for not ordering the Senate to take a test to prove that they are not a hidden Sith Lord but you are ignoring the fact that the Jedi simply don't have that authority. Again they serve the Senate not the other way around. What if the Sith Lord fakes the test or somehow changes the results of someone else’s test making it look like that person has a high midichlorian count? The Jedi could end up following a number of false leads. If they go before the Senate and ask for this test they risk alerting the Sith Lord that they are on to him and they don't even know for sure if he's in the Senate. He could be one of Palpatine's Red Guards who is influencing the Chancellor through mind tricks. Just because they don't have every single person in the galaxy taking some test doesn't mean they are sitting on their thumbs doing nothing. They are actively seeking out the Sith by having Anakin spy on the Chancellor.
And I'll say again, did they have authority when they finally decide to confront Palpatine? Nope. So it's a matter of when, not if.
Play a little politics and strong arm the politicians into taking the test. Had they done it Palpatine is exposed, game over.
Or go ahead and spy on the nemoidians off the record. Black ops.
The OT forces Lucas to have the Jedi wiped out......but not for the Jedi to be incompetent fools. So he actually did more than 'just that'.
I would say there's a significant difference in terms of cost and benefit analysis.
With the situation regarding Palpatine, their worst fears had been realized. This is explicitly stated in the film. And so Mace Windu (rather recklessly, true) took matters into his own hands. Because regardless of the outcome, he likely believed that leaving the Republic in the hands of the Sith was the absolute worse case scenarios. Not without reason mind you.
With the Nemoidians, though, it's quite different. The Sith have just reemerged and as far as the Jedi know, they are confined to the outer fringes of society. The Nemoidians themselves, also, don't seem to know much more about Sidious than a few details. They're also deathly afraid of him. Don't forget, too, that the Sith don't really make a reappearance until ten years later, when Dooku is heading the Separtists. The Jedi themselves, though don't find this out until the end of the film (by which time they are embroiled in the war).
In the end, it's a cost-benefit analysis. The Jedi have no authority to test the Senators and doing so goes against their mandate and principles. The situation is also not nearly so dire as it is in ROTS. I think you need to take the circumstances into account when you consider what the Jedi should do. Because there's always a price to pay.
Play politics? Palpatine IS politics...or the Senate, I forget.
He controls everything in the Republic government, or at least maintains such an influence over it that the Jedi are helpless to react in a manner that would flush "the Sith" out faster. Move against the Senate in force, you'd probably see Order 66 initiated a lot sooner and Palpatine's fears of a Jedi coup legitimized.
The fact of the matter is, yes, the Jedi illegally confronted the Chancellor with lightsabers drawn on pure speculation. With only Anakin's word and without even a shred of evidence, and may I remind you Windu was skeptical of it and even mildly chided Anakin (if what you've told me is true...), they confront Palpatine and place him under arrest. Unfortunately, the Jedi picked the wrong day to "strong arm" and play politics.
Had they brought the test to the Senate and argued their case, MAYBE it could have gained enough traction to sideline Palpatine's influence...however, knowing Palpatine he already had something planned for that eventuality.
The Jedi were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Jedi knew it and Palpatine took every advantage of it he could find...
Trying to strong arm the Senate before you even know if the Sith Lord is in the Senate doesn't sound like the greatest idea. A politician like Palpatine could easily turn that to his advantage and paint the Jedi as the villains. When they confront Palpatine they at least know at that point that it is very likely he is the Sith Lord.
Too many people don't understand that fact.
My guess is that they never really anticipated that Clones would turn on them, at least not in the manner that they did. Perhaps they thought that they were in charge of the clones more than Palpatine, particularly on the front lines.
Plus too none of them knew what ended up happening at the Chancellors office until Anakin showed up with the 501st. I don't really think that there was any way for them to prepare for such a massive betrayal that Palpatine had planned
Especially since they never found anything to refute the claim by the Kaminoans that it was a Jedi who'd contacted them and ordered the clones, in the first place.
I think I'd be too engulfed in shock and disbelief, even anger. I'd be too emotionally overwhelmed to strategize, having just discovered that the man who had spearheaded the Republic for years in a galactic war was actually a Sith Lord. Then again, given all the training and mental powers that the Jedi allegedly had, they should be able to overcome the emotions I just listed, thus devising such strategies as you have given.
And even found things to support the claim ( in C-canon ).
The Jedi know that there is a connection between the clone army and Dooku, and they just rush ahead. Braindead idiots. A child should have seen that something was wrong with that army.
In fact, they see two connections:
* The mercenary who served as the template, who does not appear to be the kind of person who would have any qualms about selling his services to anyone willing to pay enough, or selling his services to both sides of a conflict as mercenaries have a long history of doing, also hired out as a Dooku bodyguard.
* Dooku's droid army just got attacked by the clone army. This connection was especially hard to miss even though the Jedi can't see the movie title.
Given the way the Jedi are written, I'm not sure that they can see anything. I don't think you can trust them to get your lunch order right.
I think you took "serve the Republic" the wrong way.
Even if the Jedi had seen that something is wrong with having a clone army, what can they do about it? Any action they make will be misconstrued by the Republic as an act of treason. Its just like when Mace told the rest of the Jedi council that they should take over the republic in order to replace PalpSidious with a new supreme chancellor and Yoda feels that "to a dark place, this line of thought will take us". PalpSidious will take advantage of the misinterpretation by fooling all the senators into believing that the Jedi have sided with the Separatists and convincing them to give him permission to initiate order 66 against the Jedi.
Treason? That is quite a stretch. Palpatine had not yet consolidated that much power to just go blindly arresting people on trumpted up charges. Asking questions, or refusing to go along with slavery, is not treason.
It is if your turning against the leader of the Republic. It's like what George Bush jr. said in his infamous congress speech, "You are either with us or your with the terrorists". Even Anakin feels that having him spy on PalpSidious is considered treason because the Jedi are questioning the way PalpSidious is leading the Republic.
Not supporting a position is not treason. A dictator can round people up for such things, but Palpatine is not yet a dictator at the time these questions are relevant. In fact, he only becomes a dictator because the Jedi are foolish enough to help him create the very crisis he needs to funnel more and more power to his office.
I would say that a great deal of the blame for the fall of the Republic falls squarely on the shoulders of the Jedi leadership, they are blind
Just because PalpSidious isn't a dictator yet doesn't mean he won't accuse the Jedi of treason. If the Jedi refuse to use the clone army or support PalpSidious' position as supreme chancellor, then the republic will see that they are committing sedition which is defined as the treasonous stirring up of resistence against the government. PalpSidious doesn't have to be a dictator to convince the Republic that the Jedi are all traitors and be given permission to let him gun down all the Jedi.