PT Sith Exposed: Evacuation of the Jedi Temple/Warning to the Jedi

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Charlie512, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
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    It's about what he has the power to do. The republic at that point is still essentially a free society.

    Accusations must be backed up. Not supporting the use of a slave army is not treason by any normal standard. And Palpatine is not all powerful, not at that point.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 15, 2013
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    The Jedi's refusal to fight could be seen as dereliction of duty or treason, however. Don't forget that the Jedi owe their allegiance to the Senate, who have approved the clone army. And while Palpatine is not yet dictator, he would have no trouble manipulating a bunch of frightened, panicking Senators. Don't forget -- Obi-Wan's information showed that Nute Gunray was behind the assassination attempts on Padmé and the Separtists are perfectly willing to send a Senator to her execution.

    With that in mind, the Senate could very easily turn against the Jedi by branding them cowards.

    In that regard, I think the Jedi were railroaded rather harshly into the war. There really wasn't a good decision to make. They could have refused to fight, but the alternative is really no better. When the Republic was overrun by the Separatists, who do you think the Senate and the public would blame? The Jedi, for refusing to protect them would be my guess.

    Meanwhile, Palpatine would be securely in control of the galaxy as the Separatist leader while the Jedi would likely be hunted down or imprisoned by the angry and desperate citizenry.
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  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The Jedi make it clear, they are not soldiers. They also don't like it when the chancellor attempts to interfere in their affairs. What dereliction of duty could their possibly be for a group of non soldiers to not involve themselves in war?

    How can you court martial a group that is separate from your military in the first place?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 15, 2013
  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    They are the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Without a centralized military for the Republic, it is the Jedi who are charged with its defense. The opening crawl even notes that the Separatist movement has made it difficult for the limited number of Jedi Knights to keep peace in the galaxy. The vote on the army was even supposed to be made specifically to assist the overwhelmed Jedi.

    That's the tragedy of the Jedi -- that by aligning themselves with the Senate, they have become de facto soldiers. There's the expectation from the Senate that the Jedi will defend them and maintain peace and order, thus they debate the formation of an army to assist, not supplant the Jedi as peacekeepers and warriors.

    With their colleagues being killed and the Separatists making hostile intentions clear, the weak-willed Senate isn't going to be very receptive to the Jedi's concerns. Not when they view the alternative as so much more terrible.

    The clone army very well could be a trap. But if they don't use them, then they might as well accept Separatist demands as they have no other means of resisting them. And given the Separatist's actions that is not acceptable.
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
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    Removing themselves from the equation does not mean the Republic would just surrender and die. That is a false choice. They could question why this army exists, why the template of this army is obviously in league with Dooku, and the nature of this crisis. The republic would defend itself, with or without them.

    Instead, they supply the very crisis Palpatine needed. In fact, it is the Jedi who start the war to save their friends.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Jun 15, 2013
  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    But refusing to participate in the defense of the Republic during a time of martial crisis could be perceived as dereliction of duty or even treason. Especially if Palpatine manipulates the panicking and weak-willed Senators.

    Yes, the Jedi could have tried to remove themselves from the equation, but it would most certainly not have gone unchallenged and the consequences for them would have been severe.

    You can argue that the Jedi should have stood on principle and faced those consequences, and maybe you are right. But that wouldn't necessarily have remedied the situation.

    The clones would have still been taken into the Republic's army, only now they would not have Jedi commanders to help them. And the Jedi would have faced the wrath of the Senate and the citizenry, who would have viewed their neutrality as betrayal in this time of need and given that they've sworn allegiance to the Senate.
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Difficult choices to be sure. It's too bad we didn't get a story that went into this.
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I think the Jedi are, in part, to blame for the situation with the clones, but not necessarily for the same reasons you might think. Regardless of the choice the Jedi made, I think the clones would still have been utilized. I think that the Jedi's greatest mistake in the first place was aligning themselves with a political body. Because history has shown that there is a tendency, over time, for an organization set up for a specific purpose to exceed its mandate to suit the needs of the time.

    Don't mix your religion/philosophy with politics in other words.
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  9. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
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    And yet, the film shows us these characters simply rushing into action. Every post on here that deals with them questioning this army or their roll in it, most of these points are being made by the viewers, not the film. And since that is the case, we are left to judge these characters based on the choices we actually do see them making.

    There is a lot of talk about the choices we don't see them making.
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I would say that the tragedy of the Jedi is not necessarily the choices they make in the film (where I think they did the best they could with what they were given) but in their complacency. In essence, their tragic mistake is being a part of the complacency of the Republic where they should have been independent arbiters of peace and justice. Because too many of their actions, it seems to me, are restricted by what they can and can't do according to the Senate.

    And when they do try to break free (by ROTS with spying on Palpatine and such) it backfires on them because they're far too late.

    The situation with slaves in the Outer Rim, the situation with the war, the clone army -- a lot of these problems, I think, can be directly traced back to the Jedi's involvement with the Senate and its corruption.

    At least, that's the way I look at it. They're a symptom (admittedly, a pretty big symptom) of a much larger institutional problem.
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  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    And yet, they don't seem capable of seeing what is really right in front of them. I just don't think these characters are written very well.
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    It doesn't surprise me personally. People are remarkably good at not seeing what they don't want to see. Not to get too political, but the recent freakout over the revelation of the PRISM surveillance program in the US? Yeah...I've suspected that for a long while now. Not because I'm a conspiracy theorist, mind you, but because it seems a natural outgrowth of the Patriot Act.

    Sadly, I think the Jedi are rather well written. And I say it's sad because I think all too often, we truly aren't capable of seeing what's in front of us, unfortunately.
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  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
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    That's not a great analogy for one reason though, the Jedi are directly involved in the matters at hand. They aren't just citizen Joe Sixpack sitting on his couch.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Well, I mostly chose it because it highlights how the Jedi are very much at the mercy of their government. As are we. Interestingly, while the Jedi are more directly involved with the matters at hand, as you note, they aren't really involved in the decision-making process. In terms of the clones, for instance, the Jedi don't do anything until Palpatine has made a declaration. Similarly, for the situation on Naboo, they must be dispatched by the Chancellor.
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  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    No, but they are close enough to the situation to see that something isn't right.
  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    Nov 23, 2000
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    If they were actual slaves, then I would agree. However, nobody in the Republic believes that the entire clone army are slaves because for all they know, they could be military soldiers from different corners of the galaxy volunteering to become the Republic's most elite fighting squadron. In the real world, if someone questions the existence of our US military, people will say "you're not an american" and "you're siding with Al-Quieda" so nobody would dare go against their own military nor would the Jedi go against the Republic for creating an army. As for backing up accusations, PalpSidious will use Count Dooku to incriminate the entire Jedi Order because he used to be a Jedi until he left the Order. PalpSidious will have the senate believe that if 1 Jedi is willing to betray the Republic, then who knows how many more Jedi will follow in his footsteps and what Mace Windu tried to do to PalpSidious is what solidified all the senators's suspicions.
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    That I'll agree with. But I think the point the films make is that sometimes the real threat gets a bit muddled and lost. When the war began, I think the Jedi became so focused on ending the war that they stopped looking into why it began in the first place until it was too late. A lot of this has to do with lack of resources, but I think a lot of it was deflection. Facing that question meant tearing into the heart of the Republic's stability and corruption. I think the US faced a similar situation after 9/11. I'd argue that we handled it with about as much grace, truthfully. (Note that if you find the political analogies offensive, I'll be happy to concede and drop the issue -- it's just sometimes the easiest way to express myself, that's all).
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  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I do not find the analogies offensive at all.
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  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Really, because the fact is that there has been a great deal of protest by American citizens against the War in Iraq and in Afhganastan, none of those protesters were found guilty of treason.
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    Nov 23, 2000
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    Well, those citizens don't work for the government the same way the Jedi work for the republic so they don't have to worry about being accused as traitors or be gunned down on the spot.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Jan 30, 2013
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    And if the Jedi were to simply step away from their relationship to the Senate, what then? Are they not members of a free society? Their members come and go as they please. Dooku himself freely left the order. Clearly, their "responsibilities" are by choice.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    Nov 23, 2000
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    And look what Dooku did after he left the Jedi Order....he turned to the dark side and conspired with PalpSidious to assemble more droid armies and create a Separatist movement so that PalpSidious will have an excuse to deploy the clone army. In the Clone Wars cartoon, when General Krell (a Jedi) attacked his own clone troops, they gunned him down on the spot and Barris Offie (another Jedi) hired 2 explosive experts to blow up her own Jedi temple. Then, she framed Ashoka Tano for killing both the bomber and several clone troops (when it was Barris who killed them) but when Anakin caught on to Barris, she ended up in a republic prison. The actions of these 3 Jedi have made it impossible for the entire Jedi Order to simply walk away from the Republic because if they even try to do so, they will be corrupted by the Dark Side and be viewed as a threat by both the senate and the general public. The last straw came when Mace tried to kill PalpSidious but failed due to Anakin's betrayal which led to the genocide of the Jedi Order (except for Obi-wan and Yoda since they both escaped the genocide).
    Last edited by PMT99, Jun 16, 2013
  23. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
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    A few things to chew on first.

    Several posts back someone said that it would be hard to go through all the senators in the Senate and they are right. They threw out the number 100,000 for senators. All those senators have a person that represents them while they are away so that number doubles to 200,000. A few systems might have duo senators so that adds more numbers to those to look at. Then you have staff. Padme has five/six handmaids, a chief of security and at least a dozen security guards that may double as drivers or pilots if not then you have to add two/three heads to that. Jar Jar then must have one/two/three menservants to help hi with some things and then there could be other security guards and pilots for him. You see where this is going?

    The Jedi could just acquire the blood samples though when these people go to see the doctor or if they are injured make sure that a blood sample is drawn. But they have several hundred millions of people to shift through to find a Sith Lord and they don't even have a guarantee is in the senate and there could be plenty of senators and their staff that have higher midi counts but weren't picked up for different reasons.
  24. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Yeah. If I consider what Yoda once said to Luke, the blind acceptance of the Clone Army is quite ironic - "If you take the quick and easy path, you will become an agent of evil".

    It's as if Yoda and the rest of the high-ranking Jedi just said, 'Away with it, all this peacekeeping is much too strenuous, let's just take full advantage of this Clone Army that we know next to nothing about and which, as Master Kenobi informed us, seemed to have been ordered in completely suspicious circumstances'.
  25. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    A small number of others survived as well.
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