PT Sith Exposed: Evacuation of the Jedi Temple/Warning to the Jedi

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Charlie512, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    I'm not sure that blame can be attributed them considering they didn't have the ability to see what was happening. Blame can only be attributed to the Jedi if they knew what was happening but never acted, which we saw was certainly not the case when they eventually did realize, as Mace Windu led a strike-team to arrest Sidious immediately upon Anakin's information.
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  2. Major Smith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2013
    The one thing I never understood was that either Windu or Anakin stated that 'palpatine is the sith lord we've been looking for', this should be ringing alarm bells for the Jedi. They've got a sith master- know through the fact they always come in two practically on their back door. I would of thought they would of mobilized the entire might of the Jedi council rather than simply sending over a 4 man strike team which gets reduced to one within a matter of seconds. I also don't understand why knowing that palpatine was a sith lord they didn't try to detain him in a more creative way than walking into his office and expecting him to surrender
  3. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    A lot of the Masters are offplanet in warzones. It would take time for all of them to return, time the Jedi didn't think they had.
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  4. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    Another of the Jedi's flaws "Impatience". The best answer and what perhaps they should have done was to order the return of all the Generals in battle back to Coruscant, Meaning that all Jedi would have been safe if something like Order66 was implemented. It would have also given the Jedi a chance to plot their next course of action with the strongest of the Jedi Order present.

    Unfortunately Windu and Yoda decided it was best to arrest Palpatine instead, which of course as we all know was a big mistake.
  5. Major Smith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2013

    I never understood that, I mean they had Shak-ti and Drallig at the temple, along with many more. I know Palpatine took out 3 jedi masters quickly but if he is facing 10+ he doesn't stand a chance.

    I suppose I always thought of the Jedi as being perfect, well not perfect but always in the right but as you say they do have many flaws. The confusion really helped the sith, I mean the jedi had no idea what was going and any survivors headed back to the temple thanks to the signal set by anakin
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    10+ in a five by five room is even more unwieldly than four...notice how those guys barely had any room at all to move around. Heck, even Palpatine apparently has no desire to keep the duel in there once its just himself and Mace...there's no space at all to manuever in.
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  7. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I never understood how that shows them to be impatient. Why would they allow Palpatine/Sidious to remain in power one moment longer than is absolutely necessary? Keep in mind that the Jedi don't believe they will fail in their attempt to arrest/kill Palpatine/Sidious. The longer they wait the more harm Palpatine/Sidious can do to the Republic. Not to mention the fact that the longer they wait the more time it allows Palpatine to prepare for their eventual attempt against him. I think too many people look at it from hindsight. We know they fail so obviously they needed to take more Jedi with them but they have to fail so no matter how many Jedi they take they will still fail. It's a circular argument.
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  8. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    What harm can he do to the Republic exactly?

    Me personally (and as Kit Fisto also said) I would have preferred to wait for the likes of Yoda, Obi-Wan and Ki-Adi Mundi to return. Yeah Ok they thought that 4 Jedi Masters where enough and with good reason but it would have been more reassuring to me to have to best Jedi Masters available.

    There "Impatience" was rushing into situations without thinking things through for example, 1) Why has he now decided to reveal himself. 2) Why does he want Anakin to go to Utapau. The Jedi never stopped to ask themselves these questions, there acting purely on impulse and not intelligence and that's what cost them. Like I said before what could Palpatine have done to the Republic, He certainly can't say the Jedi are traitors because they haven't done anything that remotely suggests that. He would probably have to give up his emergency powers now that the war was over, If he didn't the senate may have wondered why he hasn't and may begin to distrust him.

    Yoda learnt the lesson of patience on Dagobah in his exile, he understood that you needed to be patient and the opportunity will present itself. Look at Yoda's reaction when Luke said he wanted to go to Cloud City.

    The Jedi thought they knew exactly what was happening, and because of that they never stopped to ask those important questions. As Darth Sidious said before the duel with Yoda "You're arrogance blinds you Master Yoda".
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  9. Major Smith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2013
    The one thing I never understood was what they actually hoped to achieve by going over there, I mean did they think that a Sith Lord would give himself up? No. Mace Windu said that he was to dangerous to be kept alive yet he walked in saying that he was under arrest. He grossly underestimated the power of Sidious, which yes is hindsight. However they've got the location of the chancellor/ Sith lord-why didn't they think to seal off the location or atleast alert the other jedi's on Coursant what was happening.

    It's seems strange to confront a sith lord expecting him to simply surrender
  10. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    The thing we must remember is that prior to the duel, The only evidence mace had that palpatine was a sith lord was from Anakin, who he distrusted since day one.
  11. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Deserting your post in a time of war would be a serious argument against them. I just can't understand how you think leaving Palaptine in power for one minute longer than is absolutely necessary is a good thing. Palpatine has turned the Republic into a dictatorship in all but name and you want the Jedi to leave him in power and wait and see what happens?
  12. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    Most of the time Generals (which is what the Jedi where) wouldn't have even been on the battlefield, they would be working behind the scenes organizing the attacks. Furthermore the war was actually over. You can't really say the Jedi betrayed the Republic because they returned to there base after the war was over.

    Even if Palpatine was to declare himself Emperor in a new dictatorship the Jedi would still be able to make a move against him, like Obi-Wan and Yoda did. Only difference is there would have been a lot (Having survived Order66 which most of them would) more Jedi available including more Jedi Masters like Mace, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi-Mundi etc.

    You may feel differently, but me, If I was a Jedi I'd rather my order survived rather then being wiped out, and also I'd rather be in a dictatorship for a few months or a few years rather then the 20 odd years that it eventually became.

    The truth is although you might get lucky a few times generally speaking no good will ever come when you rush into things head on.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    PalpSidious has already taken the power and authority away from all the senators and just like in the movies, he would've abolished the Republic and reorganize it into the Galactic Empire. It could've been worse for he could've initiate a hostile takeover of the Republic by having his clone troops remove all the senators from power either by arresting or shooting them leaving only himself as absolute ruler. The Jedi couldn't allow either scenario to happen which is why Mace and his Jedi crew went after PalpSidious because there wasn't any time to think things through or to call the other Jedi back to Coruscant.

    They didn't expect that 1 Sith Lord can defeat 4 Jedi masters singlehandedly nor did they count on Anakin betraying and helping Sidious annihilate the rest of the Jedi Order. Even when Mace lost the 3 Jedi he brought with him, he still managed to knock Sidious to the ground and if it weren't for Anakin's betrayal, he would've run his lightsaber through PalpSidious' chest which will prevent the events of both the 2nd half of ROTS and the OT from happening.
  14. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    He did reorganize it into an Empire which most senators where in favor. If he would have done it by force then he would have created a lot of enemies, imagine a rebel alliance if he would have taken them by force. All those systems and with the aid of the Jedi Order.

    He wanted the Jedi to react in the way they did which is exactly why he told Anakin in the first place, he knew the Jedi would try and arrest/kill him which was playing right into his hands. He also knew he could convert Anakin if the Jedi came to fight him.

    If they would have waited Order66 could not have been given, even if it was there would have been no way for him to convert Anakin and with all the Jedi at the temple the Stormers would not have been able to do much damage, just look at the way Yoda and Obi-Wan cut through them. Then they could have come up with a plan to take Palpatine down, only this time having a lot more resources and the Jedi Order still intact.
  15. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    1) Most of the Jedi Generals are shown to get directly involved in the fighting.
    2) While most Generals in real life are not on the field where a firefight is taking place, they are "in the field."
    3) I'll rephrase to encompass all exceptions. Deserting your post is a serious argument against them.
    4) The wars not over. If the war is over why is Ki-Adi still fighting when he gets gunned down? Why is Yoda still overseeing the Battle for Kashyyyk when he feels the deaths from Order 66?

    Why would you assume that most of them would have survived? I believe a number would but it seems like there are 1 to 2 Jedi per force of clones. It seems to me most would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

    Again, wou're using hindsight. You know they fail and then get wiped out so you say they should have done things differently. The Jedi don't know their going to fail. If the Jedi had succeeded, instead of a dictatorship of a few months or years, the dictatorship ends right then.
    Last edited by ILNP, Jul 8, 2013
  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    First off, even when the senators were all in favor of a Galactic Empire, they realize many years later that not only did they make a mistake in doing so, but they've also made a mistake in electing PalpSidious as their supreme chancellor. The rebel alliance was still formed and PalpSidious still ended up with a lot of enemies anyway because his creation of the Death Star ends up threatening the entire galaxy. Second, even if the Jedi had waited for the others to return to Coruscant, PalpSidious could still initiate Order 66 against them at anytime. Plus, they still need evidence to present to the senate that will incriminate PalpSidious and all they have is Anakin's testimony. The only people who know that Darth Sidious exists are either dead (Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Gen. Grievous) or in hiding (the Separatists) so the Jedi were screwed no matter if they went after PalpSidious or not. Finally, It won't be hard for PalpSidious to convert Anakin because the boy is still fearing for Padme's life. Regardless if the Jedi managed to arrest PalpSidious, Anakin would still want information from him on how to save Padme and will do anything to get it even if it meant betraying and murdering the Jedi. If Mace had killed PalpSidious before Anakin arrived in the office, then Anakin would never had turned to the Dark Side but Mace chose not to until its too late. As long as PalpSidious is alive, Anakin will still join the Sith.
  17. Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2013
    star 1
    Sidious probably had a plan for every scenario, But the Jedi would have been a lot better off returning to base then if Order66 was initiated they would have had a lot better chance of surviving. They then could have escaped and gone to different planets and aided the Rebel Alliance, like Shaak Ti for example. Yoda was the only one who knew of the missing planets in the archives and he could have sent (Like he did himself) the Jedi to the others.

    The OT obviously demanded what happened in the PT, in the OT I felt sorry for the Jedi in the PT I don't. Because in the PT there portrayed as a bunch of arrogant and naive idiots who just rush into things without giving them any thought what so ever. They never stopped to consider what would happened if they failed to arrest Sidious.
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    The original question seems to have been lost but to answer that:

    Yes the Jedi should have taken more precautions.
    They do not need to know about order 66 in order to be worried about the clone army.
    They KNOW, from AotC, that the clones will obey ANY order without question. Since the clones will know exactly how the command structure in the republic works and who outranks who, the Jedi WILL know that Palpatine has the highest authority and thus he can give them ANY order. So at any point between AotC and RotS he could have ordered the clones to kill all the Jedi and they would have done so.
    So knowing that Palpatine is a Sith and being worried about a plot to destroy the Jedi, anyone with any sense would factor in the clone army into this.
    Esp with the knowledge that Palpatine = Sidious, the Jedi would know that the war is fake and he was the ultimate architect behind the clone army.
    This is an even bigger reason to warn the other jedi and take precautions.

    And what did Mace hope to do exactly? He had no evidence beyond Anakins say so. If it went to court and it was just Palpatines word against Anakin, how would that convict Palpatine? If Anakin was wrong or simply lied to him then he would be committing treason by attempting to arrest Palpatine for being a Sith when he wasn't. He also should have questioned Anakin more closely and then he might have learned that the sith Lord that have been hiding himself very well for over a decade just comes out and tells a Jedi who he is and lets said Jedi leave. Most intelligent people would go "Hmmm" at that.

    No, Mace should have called a quick meeting with Yoda and the other masters he could reach, inform them of the situation and make some kind of plan. RotS seemed to indicate that some time passed, when Anakin talks to Mace it is still daylight, when Mace shows up in Palpatines office, it is night.
    Having a few senators on their side would have been good, like Bail Organa.
    The need to act quickly? Well Palpatine, a Sith, has been running the republic for over a decade now, so whatever his plans are, he isn't rushing things. So it would be better to take a couple of hours to make some kind of plan rather than rushing off.
    As someone said "The quick stroke often goes astray."

    Plus, given all the reasons they have from AotC to be worried about the clone army, they should already have made plans to deal with such eventualities.
    At the end of AotC the have strong reason to question the identity of who ordered the clone army. And based on the film, the most logical scenario is that it was ordered under a false name and the Jedi could determine that with ease, if they had not already done so at films end.
    Even if they felt that refusing to use the clone army would be unwise, they could still make plans and prepare for all sorts of eventualities, like the clone army turning on them. They don't even need to factor in the sith in this. Say that the clone army was ordered by someone in the senate who wants to seize power. By having an army that will obey his or her command without question would be a way to achieve that.

    In short, the Clone army was something the Jedi had ample reasons to distrust and with the knowledge that Palpatine is a Sith, they have no reason to ignore the threat it posed.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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