CT Size of the Empire/Post ROTJ

I have for years wondered about the true size of the Galactic Empire in the Star Wars galaxy. When you look at a galaxy, it has billions of stars and planets. So is it a little exaggeration to to call it a "Galactic Empire"? I suppose it was called that for political reasons and because it was the largest force ever known for thousands of years even if it was only half of the galaxy (That's still billions of stars).

What always gets me is when the Rebellion win the Battle Of Endor, you see various locations throughout the galaxy of citizens celebrating the destruction of the Death Star II and the death of Palpatine, but you don't see any Imperials in the scenes nor combat between freedom fighters and Imperials. It's not like these planets were abondoned by the Empire. Also, why does it feel as though the Empire is dead after the Battle Of Endor? The Empire stretches for light years and just as General Kota stated, "The Emperor's army is infinite." We know it's not truly infinite, but if you take away the EU elements for a minute, what do you think Lucas was thinking when he added those scenes? I remember years ago looking on the back of the 1992 ROTJ VHS where it states "The Empire Falls." It may have lost the battle, but the Empire was still an iron fist.

The Empire's defeat at Endor was major, but it could be compared to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor. It was a major setback, but the US got itself back into gear and eventually won the war. Endor was only 1 planet/system (out of billions) just like Pearl Harbor was only 1 harbor. Without getting into too much detail, you get my point. I'm sure Coruscant had enough manpower to conquer more worlds by itself. With all that in mind, it would make sense if the Empire still exists in Episode 7, but we don't have to get into that part.

What are your thoughts?

 

From Ozzel's "My lord- there are so many uncharted settlements" we got the concept of nearly a billion systems with people living in them - but only about 69 million with populations big enough to "merit Imperial representation". The Empire has holdings in most of the galactic disc- only about 15% of the disc is the "Unknown Regions" - but with the galactic halo and satellite galaxies added, the Unknown Regions become some 75% of the "whole galaxy". Still, the Empire controlled more of the galactic disc than even the Old Republic- thanks to sending warlords (notably, Thrawn) to conquer such territory, reclaiming some of Hutt Space, and making other entities into client states.

Regarding Coruscant- while we don't see the crackdown after the celebrations, the EU certainly has one:

X-Wing: Iron Fist, page 33-34

"People like Zsinj, they have to be squashed as hard and as fast as you can. Because the next thing they do is going to be something awful. They never do anything that isn't awful, and ordinary people get killed." Castin's tone was bitter, and other Wraith's perked up to listen.
"You're speaking from personal experience."
"Oh, yes." Castin looked around blankly, staring not at his fellow Wraiths but at some point in the past. "The day the Emperor died - what were you doing?"
Face didn't have to think back. Most people recalled exactly what they were doing the moment they heard that Palpatine had been killed at Endor. "I was in civilian flight school on Lorrd. In class studying astronautics. Why?"
"I was in one of Coruscant's plazas. A little one, couldn't have held more than a couple of hundred thousand people, way up high where only a half-dozen buildings cast shadows on it. The word spread like fire through an old building. The New Republic HoloNet broadcast was being rebroadcast on a wide band so that every personal comlink would pick it up. All holoprojectors were showing the second Death Star exploding.
"The crowd went crazy. Loyalists were turning white. Some of them were fainting dead away. Rebels and people with Rebel leanings were going berserk. Before very long, they were actually tearing a statue of Palpatine down. A big one. It took cables and skimmers to knock it over. Castin shrugged. "And then the stormtroopers came."
"To restore order."
"If you want to call it that. They opened up on the crowd pulling down the statue. And their blasters weren't set on stun. You could smell the burning-meat odor all over the plaza. I was right next to a young mother who took it right in the head. I grabbed her baby on the way down so that it wouldn't be trampled in the stampede." He shook his head, his expression bleak, and fell silent.
Face said, "The Imperial HoloNet wouldn't have transmitted the news of the Emperor's death like that. Not before they'd had time to sweeten up the story and turn it into some kind of Imperial victory."
Castin shook his head, not meeting Face's eye.
"So someone else, someone technically proficient, had to have intercepted it and rebroadcast it like that. You?"
"My group was one of them, yes."
"So Zsinj is another Imperial killer, and if you don't stop him personally, it's the plaza all over again. Is that it?"
"Maybe."
"Well, that's as good a reason as any." But that was an answer for Face. Castin might have volunteered for this duty without a blemish on his record, but there was still a possibility of volatility there. Now he had to wonder if Dia or Shalla were also carrying around emotional demolition charges just waiting to go off.

The EU has some interesting things to say about this. The important part is that, since Palpatine was dead, there was a lack of clear succession. Still, while the Empire ended up as a bunch of squabbling mini-states (due to rivalries over who would take over after Palpatine's death) which the New Republic defeated one by one, it still took some 3 years for the New Republic to retake Coruscant- and they lost it back to the Empire a short time afterward when the Empire's forces combined again under an "Omnipotent Battle Leader" (Palpatine's spirit in one of his clone bodies). Even after those forces were defeated, the Empire itself survived for the next 9 years, until a tiny 8-sector remnant (from an original 1000+ sectors) made peace with the New Republic. And even after that, there were Imperial dissidents who fled the Remnant, continued to fight, and who weren't conclusively defeated until about 5 or so years later.

As of 25 years After The Battle of Yavin (21 years after Endor) those dissident warlords had been overcome, though.

 

The Essential Atlas is an invaluable tool for understanding the vast scope of the Star Wars galaxy. I highly recommend picking it up, even if you have no further interest in the EU.

 

The Essential Guide to Warfare is less essential but still very interesting.

 

I don't realistically see how the Empire could fall apart overnight like the movies are implying.

 

Hence the EU idea that it took years (with a big contributing factor being the way it split up into a lot of factions that fought each other, on more than one occasion.

What the movies go out of their way to tell us, is that many of the ordinary citizens of the Empire hated the system and promptly started celebrating (somewhat prematurely) when the Emperor & DS2 were gone.

 

The Death Star II was not completed yet, so it was not fully manned meaning the loss of manpower could have been less than that of the first Death Star. There were about 30 star destroyers in the battle. That's quite a fleet, but it was said there were 25,000 star destroyers in the Empire in total. It was not like Endor was an essential world to occupy. It really must just boil down to internal conflicts of interest in the heirarchy of power following Palpatine's death.

The other thing you have to remember is that the Rebel fleet had many losses as well as the Empire in the battle. I don't see how the Rebels could have gained more momentum in the war unless full worlds overthrew their Imperial occupiers by the loads. This is coming from the viewpoint of the films, not necessary that of the EU.

 

This is something I hope is addressed in the ST. It dosen't have to be any drawn out arc but rather in one or two scenes where the dialogue can refer to previous battles and what transpired since.

 

More recently, the theme seems to be "25,000 Imperial-class destroyers" with a number of other destroyer classes on top of that.
http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/23039847571/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-7

An explanation of sorts is provided in The Essential Guide to Warfare about why only a little over 30 such destroyers were at Endor- two huge task forces were being sent to blockade Dac (Admiral Ackbar's homeworld) and Chandrila (Rebel leader Mon Mothma's homeworld) until the DS2 could destroy them. And other ships were keeping worlds pacified:

http://jasonfry.tumblr.com/post/25364458982/eg-to-warfare-endnotes-pt-12

Showdown in the Outer Rim: The makeup of the Imperial forces we see at the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi is one of the strongest arguments for the so-called minimalist point of view, discussed earlier in these endnotes. As far as the Galactic Civil War is concerned, Endor is the whole shooting match: Sidious has woven a trap meant to simultaneously destroy the Rebellion and turn the Jedi’s last hope into the Sith’s ultimate triumph. So why does Palpatine use only the Executor and a relatively paltry task force to pin the Rebels at Endor?

It’s a good question. Unless you want to wish away the entire EU (which you’re free to do, though please remember your humble author was not), it’s clear that the Empire has lots of Executor-class dreadnoughts, some number of battlecruisers and thousands and thousands of Imperial Star Destroyers. So why are the still-vulnerable Death Star II and the Emperor so poorly guarded?

Late in the writing of Warfare, I decided that question deserved an answer that would fit within the philosophical framework I’d worked out for the book. So here it is: Palpatine had two massive invasion fleets elsewhere, waiting for his signal to ravage Mon Calamari Space and Chandrila. And of course plenty of warships were needed to keep rebellious worlds pacified, guard the frontier against external menaces Sidious had known about for decades, and so forth. Throw in a bit of the usual mustache-twisting overconfidence that every villain’s master plan needs and I think the explanation seems plausible.

 

^ Also, the presence of a thousand ISDs at Endor would have scared away the Rebels. DS2 had to look relatively vulnerable and unprotected, or Palpatine's plan wouldn't work.

 

Well, yes, I think internal infighting due to the Emperor's absence was more cause for the Empire's downfall than the Rebellion is/was. No one would have dared to defy the Emperor in his life, but in his death, people like Zsinj and Teradoc took their own armies, navies, and territories for their own, making the battle Alliance vs. Imperial Remnant than Alliance versus Empire. I would bet the Empire would win if they had a united front.

 

The thing is, ROTJ was made with the idea that, having lost the battle of Endor and the Emperor dead, the Empire was finished. Obviously, if you think from a practical point of view, that's not entirely possible, but this is a fantasy film, and we're dealing with allegories and mythical figures. The Empire is 100% evil and the courage and determination of the rebels (with the help of the primitive ewoks) bring its downfal.
Similarly, in the Lord of the Rings, when the Ring is destroyed suddenly all the bad guys just vanish, and in Harry Potter, when Voldemort dies, his regime is over.
Those "fantasy worlds" have to combine the realism with fantasy/allegory. And something that is totally evil CAN be suddenly defeated with a single victory of the heroes.

 

I think the pearl harbor analogy isn't as useful because the Galactic Civil War is an insurgency war. The Battle of Endor is a very rare "set-piece battle" for the rebellion as far as engaging in a full conventional fleet battle. A major rebel victory like that would have much larger impact (mainly psychological) than simply it's zero-sum military value. In particular I imagine it would spark off a major wave of planets joining the rebellion, or at the very least, rejecting Imperial rule.

 

I think there would be a lot of story potential for an intelligence agent/operative/spy series immediately after Endor. Agent 00-1138, licensed to kill, roaming around in the warlord territories, spreading disinformation, setting them against each other so the Alliance doesn't have to do all the dirty work alone.

 

Wraith Squadron, while a bit later than this- had an element of this to it- though more as commandos and saboteurs than outright spies, they still got into a certain amount of James Bond-esque action.