Slavery = OK....?

I see. Thanks MeBe.

 

Adam-
I've already acknowledged that I think Padme's inaction here is only a plot device, and not one that I think can be helped by any theory.

That's good, you've taken your first step into....no, no mustn't!


I truly and honestly find the SW acting and dialogue pretty bad.

I truly and honestly find the acting and dialogue in the OT pretty good.

Then I was forced to grow up. And I realized what these movies were.

Well all us grown ups are grown up. in other words - I see it a bit differently too since I've 'grown up' , but I still disagree with your description.
I think there's a lot of great directing, acting and writing in the OT.

Well, y'see, MeBe, this is why sometimes it's better to seek the opinion of Joe Moviegoer, not a Star Wars fan.

Fair point, adam. But I think it's also important to remember that if we all responded like 'Joe Moviegoer' these boards would contain about 2 pages!
Obviously we're all talking about these matters far more than 'Joe'.
Now while it's fair to use that idea to defend Lucas's approach, let me defend my criticism by saying that I think it's representative of what's poor in his storytelling in the PT. And I also think it points to a trend where some PT fans try and diminish or trivialise the matter so as to make it unimportant.

Star Wars fans think Shmi is a major character, because Star Wars fans also think that Dexter Jettster, Jek Porkins and Stormtrooper #6 are major characters, because we love all our fictional friends.

Joe Moviegoer is sane.

(I personally would characterize Shmi as "supporting", not "major". Anyway.)

thanks for making my point!
Okay, I know you admitted you were making broad generalisations, but I don't see Shmi as the same as Stormtrooper #6.
Even Joe knows who Shmi is.
Call her a supporting character if you want, but she is featured in major scenes and has a great affect on the plot.
Padme IS a major character, she's the one that looks bad in all this.

LordoftheBling-
First, my point was made with the statement. In a literary context, it stands up.

So....you're saying that slavery isn't a backdrop in a literal sense, but it is in a figurative sense in a literary context.
yeah?
I don't think Shmi would feel her slavery is a backdrop.
Do you think Padme would?

I happen to think you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill(first time I've ever had to use that phrase). Like Mr. Bertocci said, "Joe Moviegoer is sane." You are definitely in the "Star Wars fan" category.

well let's see - Mr. Bertocci isn't Joe Moviegoer either, nor are you, 'Joe' is hardly likely to spend his time registering and posting on a SW site and debate with other anonymous posters about the many varied aspects of SW is he?
As for the 'mountain out of a molehill' - well I'm here debating something i want to debate, but you're here posting on something which you think isn't important. To put it more succinctly:
"Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

g

 

Adam, you're right about the "money-management" thing, which is the point I was trying to make. It came off wierd because I, in a sense, switched positions in mid-post. Essentially, I was pointing out, as you did, that if Padme was actually going to help Shmi, it would be logical that she did a lot more than simply freeing her and then letting her drift in the wind. In fact, its more believable that she just did nothing at all (which is the case, given the films) than carrying out the scenario described above.

 

wow 5 pages for basically nothing....no slavery doesnt = ok in the star wars universe....however, the jedi are enforcers of justice IN the republic, that being said, tatooine is not IN the republic, that is why qui gon doesnt take the time to get rid of it while hes there

 

"that being said, tatooine is not IN the republic, that is why qui gon doesnt take the time to get rid of it while hes there"

Since when does freeing Anakin and attempting to free Shmi have anything to do with eliminating slavery? Even Qui-gon changed his mind on the topic.

Talk about not saying anything....

 

A I agree with Adam on this. Well slavery in the SW galaxy is not ok. It is only a ploit point. TPM is not even about slavery. GL coudl have showed anything a planet at war, etc. But he picked slavery not because it was going to be about that. But because like Adam said shows a few thing one it shows a for shadowing of Anakin being a slave to Palpaitne.

The real big part of the whole Tatooine is more about Shmi's love for her son.

Could Padme have tried. Yeah but then what would you do with Shmi if Padme was able to get Watto to free Shmi? Go to Naboo? Go where Anakin is? Going into AOTC her death would just not be the same. In fact Anakin would not be worried at all and ever thing would be ok for him.

It also makes senses that Shmi is freed by the Lar's. The two reason. 1) We know why Luke goings and lives with them. 2) We know why I hope Padme woudl want Luke and or Leia to go to the Lar's

Better to be with family. Also in TPM Anakin said he came back to free the slaves. Well in AOTC he did not free all of them he did free his mother.

 

"Going into AOTC her death would just not be the same."

She would have died regardless, and free, no less.

"Well in AOTC he did not free all of them he did free his mother."

Not from slavery.

 

She would have died regardless, and free, no less.

Yeah and then it would not really effect Anakin that much because all she may have died fomr was old age. But I can see you missed some of the other points that I had made such as:

She is freed by the Lar's which sets up as to why Luke is living with the Lars. And form what I saw in AOTC it sure looks like it was not long after Anakin left that she was free by the Lar's Maybe a year or so. Watto is not doing so good in AOTC. Again to TPM is not in any way shape or form about slavery.

Not from slavery.

You mean being held against one's well is not slavery? Really know If your kidnapped and the kindnaper does not let you going. That is a form of slavery there.

 

Yeah and then it would not really effect Anakin that much because all she may have died fomr was old age.

They could have come with another way for her to die.

She is freed by the Lar's which sets up as to why Luke is living with the Lars. And form what I saw in AOTC it sure looks like it was not long after Anakin left that she was free by the Lar's Maybe a year or so. Watto is not doing so good in AOTC.

They didn't need to set that up, they could have just kept the original plot point that Owen is Obi-Wan's brother.

 

They could have come with another way for her to die.

Such as?

They didn't need to set that up, they could just kept the original plot point that Owen is Obi-Wan's brother.

You mean from the books? It was never in the movie. But in the books.

 

Such as?

Palpatine wanted Anakin to fall to the darkside, so he could have got someone to kill Shmi (then Anakin kills that person in anger).

You mean from the books? It was never in the movie. But in the books.

I know it wasn't in the movies, what does that got to do with it?

 

Hmmm. I think whatever Shmi has done, you have to think about all the other slaves who equally need to be freed. ALL slaves deserve to be freed regardless.

But the way GL has set it up, it was a Jedi who frees Anakin and a a Jedi who "doesn't follow the code".

By Padme (or her proxy) trying to free Shmi, at a place where it is run by the Hutts does not forbode well with her the Republic's rules which is against Slavery.

By doing that she could be blatantly disregarding a Republic she is fighting for. If she thinks that Shmi is just one slave and by freeing her (and no one to be the wiser) would be anti-Republic. It just wouldn't be right.

Anakin later tells Amidala "I going to train to be a Jedi I hope". So its okay although Anakin may have been a slave, he may be on the way for training.

So, here's GL telling us the Jedi do find kids they use them to be Jedi, if they are in the Republic and just take them when they have Jedi traits. However, Qui Gon just bent the rules, like he usually does. "the Council will not go along with you this time". Anyway, eventually Anakin is trained.

To me I see as some of the rules in SW. Whether you accept them or not, well, that will be the difference.

 

"Yeah and then it would not really effect Anakin that much because all she may have died fomr was old age"

? For some reason, you're assuming that everything need change from what was seen in AOTC?

"But I can see you missed some of the other points that I had made"



"She is freed by the Lar's which sets up as to why Luke is living with the Lars. And form what I saw in AOTC it sure looks like it was not long after Anakin left that she was free by the Lar's Maybe a year or so. Watto is not doing so good in AOTC. Again to TPM is not in any way shape or form about slavery."

Well, had Padme freed Shmi, and left Shmi on Tatooine, eventually meeting the Lars, we'd still have the same setup, so again, it's not so much that I missed your point, simply that the extent of chnage your scenario demands isn't really necessary.

"You mean being held against one's well is not slavery? Really know If your kidnapped and the kindnaper does not let you going. That is a form of slavery there."

Point made, but that doesn't change the fact that Shmi was captured by the Tuskens while she was free. In fact, some posters in the past actually claimed that Shmi would have been better off being a slave because she would not have been in a position to be captured (which, of course, is ludicrous, but I digress.) Point being, Whether she was freed in TPM or in the years between TPM and AOTC, she still would have been in a situation of being captured by the Tuskens, so the timing of her freedom needn't affect the plot, therefore, she could have been freed in TPM.

"They didn't need to set that up, they could have just kept the original plot point that Owen is Obi-Wan's brother"

Yes, there is that scenario as well. Point being, there's more than one way to skin a nexu.

"Hmmm. I think whatever Shmi has done, you have to think about all the other slaves who equally need to be freed. ALL slaves deserve to be freed regardless."

Ah, yes. That old straw-man argument again. If you can't do it all, don't do it at all. Wonderful. All I ever asked was that Padme show the same compassion to Shmi that she's shown everyone else, and you take that as meaning that Padme must become the ultimate altruist. Brilliant!

"it was a Jedi who frees Anakin and a a Jedi who "doesn't follow the code".

Not that the "code" says anything for or against about freeing slaves.

Are you even aware of what the "code" is?

"a place where it is run by the Hutts does not forbode well with her the Republic's rules which is against Slavery."

Back it up, or shut it up. There's nothing stating that Padme cannot free a slave. No one's ever proven this "fact".

" Anakin later tells Amidala "I going to train to be a Jedi I hope". So its okay although Anakin may have been a slave, he may be on the way for training."

So now you're saying the Republic law allows for freeing a slave if they are going to be trained as a Jedi?!?

I guess you have no proof for that as well, right?!? Of course not. You don't even know what the Jedi Code is!

"However, Qui Gon just bent the rules, like he usually does. "the Council will not go along with you this time". Anyway, eventually Anakin is trained."

Gee, seems to me the council talks of Anakin having "great anger in him", and nothing about having been a former slave. Interesting, no?

"To me I see as some of the rules in SW. Whether you accept them or not, well, that will be the difference."

Oh, I accept that those are the rules....to you. What I also accept is that you will not and cannot back up this assertion with any proof whatsoever from the films. So go right ahead and pretend that this is the way things are.

...I'll wait until someone shows proof otherwise, thank you very much.

 

Mebejedi-

"So, other than that, she spent every waking moment working in the Senate every 24/7 for 10 years? Too funny!"

I don't see why you'd believe that. She spent her whole life helping others that she never had time to think about her own needs.

"We don't even know how long the Seperatists have been at work, and there's never been any indication that the Seperatists intended any kind of military action until after Obi-wan finds the droid-making factory, so why you claim the Republic has been on the brink of war for 10 years is beyond me."

The opening scroll for AOTC mentioned that the Seperatist movement is causing such a ruckus, it's becoming difficult for the Jedi to maintain peace and order in the galaxy and the way the scroll described these events, I don't believe that this movement happened recently because it would take them months or better yet, years to create such chaos in the galaxy.

Also, Palpatine mentioned that a war might occur due to the Seperatist movement splitting the Republic in 2.

"The Seperatists only wanted to secede from the Republic, hence their name. "

Seeing as how we saw them massing huge droid armies, they plan to do more than just that.

"Well, it's been shown that your reasoning doesn't follow known facts, so no, she isn't too busy looking after he people to help Shmi."

Even though her 2 terms were over, she still watches over her people just by being their Senator so yes, she is.

Gezvader28-
"Well it's because Shmi helped her that she has a 'front yard' to look after. You are making it sound like she's defending Naboo's borders 24/7 for 10 years. she does many things, one of those would be helping her allies, and Shmi was most definitely her ally in a time of great need.

Seriously-are you saying that Padme just dismissed Shmi from her mind for 10 years? What sort of ***** would behave like that?

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that even though Padme has lived out her career as being Queen, Senator, and Humanitarian, even she has her limitations becacuse she can't be everywhere and save EVERYONE so I don't see why any of us would believe that she can.

She's NOT Superman!

 

Palpatine wanted Anakin to fall to the darkside, so he could have got someone to kill Shmi (then Anakin kills that person in anger).

No that would not work. Because if Anakin would find out Palpaitne was behind his mothers death way woudl he even join Palpaitne. The love for his mother would out whigh anything Palpaitne says to him at that point.

I know it wasn't in the movies, what does that got to do with it?

It would not work.

MeBeJedi:
Well, had Padme freed Shmi, and left Shmi on Tatooine, eventually meeting the Lars, we'd still have the same setup, so again, it's not so much that I missed your point, simply that the extent of chnage your scenario demands isn't really necessary.

We are going to free her and just leave her there? ? With no money. She would be better off in slavery. At lest she had a place to live. It again also goes back to the "if" Watto would even do something like that. He just lost Anakin. Also I keep hearing well Padme coudl have freed her when ever she wanted to. To which I will ask with what? And like I said above it comes down to what Watto want's to do. But sense Republic credits don't work out there that's a no go. On less you are going to taxe all of Naboo.

Also before any one says anything the Republic is not going to lend Naboo money just to free one slave. Not when they have a lot of other things to worry about.

So again what Adam said is true. It is just a ploit point. Slavery is not what TPM is about. The whole reason for it was to show why Anakin and his mom can't levea to being with. They could have used anything it coudl be a planet at war. Then you would all ask way Padme did nothing to stop the war.

Which also bring up the point that they had not landed on Naboo to free slaves. They did not have a choose in really going to Tatooine.

 

So there I was saying how some posters seem determined to trivialise or minimalise the slavery aspect of TPM in order to cover over the question of why Padme didn't free Shmi. One poster got particularly angry at me for pointing this out.
And then along comes anidanami with:

Again to TPM is not in any way shape or form about slavery.

Brilliant!

openmind-
By Padme (or her proxy) trying to free Shmi, at a place where it is run by the Hutts does not forbode well with her the Republic's rules which is against Slavery.

"Freedom = Slavery" where have I heard that?

PMT99-
She spent her whole life helping others that she never had time to think about her own needs.

wouldn't Shmi be in the category of "others"?

I'm saying that even though Padme has lived out her career as being Queen, Senator, and Humanitarian, even she has her limitations becacuse she can't be everywhere and save EVERYONE so I don't see why any of us would believe that she can.

When did Shmi become "EVERYONE"?

g

 

nevermind just pass over my post.

 

" I don't see why you'd believe that. She spent her whole life helping others that she never had time to think about her own needs. "

So now Shmi doesn't count as one of the "others"? ?

You are tripping all over yourself trying to prove this stance.

"The opening scroll for AOTC mentioned that the Seperatist movement is causing such a ruckus, it's becoming difficult for the Jedi to maintain peace and order in the galaxy and the way the scroll described these events, I don't believe that this movement happened recently because it would take them months or better yet, years to create such chaos in the galaxy. "

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean it's been happening for ten years, not to mention the fact that this would have been a growing movement, and not an "overnight" and immediate threat to the Republic, by your own reasoning, no less.

"The Seperatists only wanted to secede from the Republic, hence their name. [wink.gif] "

"Seeing as how we saw them massing huge droid armies, they plan to do more than just that."

OK. You are totally missing the "cause and effect" here. All the dialogue about the "Separatists" refers to them simply leaving the Republic, up until the point that Obi-wan discovers the droids! Therefore, to state that the Republic was aware of an upcoming and outright war for the past ten years makes no sense.

Again, the Council and Senate didn't even believe that Dooku would resort to assassination. If they knew a war was coming, and that Dooku was leading the Separatists, then why would they be surprised at an assassination attempt?

"Even though her 2 terms were over, she still watches over her people just by being their Senator so yes, she is."

Show me where being a Senator in AGFFA means that a person has no personal life or time to themselves. Were this the case, then how do you explain Palpatine running around as Sidious?

In fact, you contradict yourself again, since your post started with...

"So, other than that, she spent every waking moment working in the Senate every 24/7 for 10 years? Too funny!"

"I don't see why you'd believe that."

As a matter of fact, I don't believe that, but you continually state or imply that very scenario to explain why Padme can't get a couple of days to herself to go and free Shmi, much less do anything for herself.

Not to mention the fact that you've not only not proven that Padme doesn't do anything for herself, but the fact that she falls in love with Anakin pretty much puts an end to your reasoning.

"I'm saying that even though Padme has lived out her career as being Queen, Senator, and Humanitarian, even she has her limitations becacuse she can't be everywhere and save EVERYONE so I don't see why any of us would believe that she can."

Explain why Padme, being the "humanitarian" that you obviously understand her to be, has time to help everyone except Shmi!

The extent to which your reasoning must include Shmi, despite your constant talking around that obvious fact, is mind-boggling. Helping Shmi <> helping "everyone", it only means Padme need help one more person. Despite this, you seem to believe that helping Shmi is somehow the straw that breaks the camel's back?

Again, too funny.

"We are going to free her and just leave her there? [confused.gif] With no money."

Uhm, Qui-gon gave her money. And it's not like she's the only person living on Tatooine. The Lars seemed to be doing quite well. Now, you expect me to believe that Shmi can't find a single job on Tatooine? ?

What on Earth is it with people throwing up all these seemingly "impossible" hurdles? Is this on purpose? Do you not see the answers to your own questions? ?

"To which I will ask with what? And like I said above it comes down to what Watto want's to do. But sense Republic credits don't work out there that's a no go. On less you are going to taxe all of Naboo."

 

then how do you explain Palpatine running around as Sidious?


Holy crap! I think you just accidentally proved that he IS a clone!!!!!!






(runs)



Rick McCallum hates clone theories!

 

Damn lurkers.

 

PADME: "This gown...this gown...three more people. This ship, it's plated in chrome...ten more people..ten more people! This pin...one more person...this head dress, it's made of gold...two more people. This ring, one person..."

 

Not only has this been explained already, but Qui-gon did find a way to come across Republic credits.[/i]

No he didn't Republic credits were no good on that planet. He never once used Republic credits.

Are you now saying that Cliegg is richer than all the population of Naboo?

When it comes to having something other then Republic credits yes.

Watto: Repulbic credits? Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real.

Republic credits on Tatooine are worth nothing. Qui-gon had in a sense no money. The money Qui-gon did get was form the pod race. But again it was only enough to free Anakin. Watto himself did not want to give up two slaves. So again it goes back to "IF" Watto at the tiem would even want to
free Shmi which he did not.

And why would all of Naboo need to be taxed?

Where is Padme going to get the money? Because arepublic credits don't work on Tatooine. Also let's remember that because they don't work freeing and just leveing Shmi there does not work. That's worse then being a slave. She woudl have no place to go. At lest as a slave she had a roof over her head.

 

" PADME: "This gown...this gown...three more people. This ship, it's plated in chrome...ten more people..ten more people! This pin...one more person...this head dress, it's made of gold...two more people. This ring, one person...""



"Not only has this been explained already, but Qui-gon did find a way to come across Republic credits"

"No he didn't Republic credits were no good on that planet. He never once used Republic credits."

Oops! My bad. I meant to say "Tatooine credits".

And how did Qui-gon do this? Selling Anakin's pod-racer.

Considering the overall low level of technology seen on Tatooine, Padme could easily take some salvaged technology back there and sell it for Tatooine credits. Hell, the thriving droid market there just screams at her selling off some of her R2 units.

I'm sure the grateful people of Naboo wouldn't mind holding a charity for the mother of their savior, donating technology to be sold to get enough credits.

Again, none of this is unreasonable, unless we hear from one of the many posters who apparently has a axe to grind against the possibility of Padme freeing Shmi.

"let's remember that because they don't work freeing and just leveing Shmi there does not work. That's worse then being a slave."

? Sounds like a personal prefence to me....

"She woudl have no place to go. At lest as a slave she had a roof over her head."

More of the "bird in a guilded cage" mindset? You are aware that Mos Espa is the only location on Tatooine to practice slavery, right? Considering the thousands of people in the stands watching the pod-races, there's obviously some sort of economy there. You seriously believe that Shmi couldn't find a decent job, or a decent husband to spend her life with, anywhere on the planet? ?

Again, sounds more like a personal belief. Again, it's not nearly the hurdle you make it out to be.

 

You are aware that Mos Espa is the only location on Tatooine to practice slavery, right?

PPOR

Considering the thousands of people in the stands watching the pod-races, there's obviously some sort of economy there.

You think ever last person in the stands was rich. ?

You seriously believe that Shmi couldn't find a decent job, or a decent husband to spend her life with, anywhere on the planet?

So just set her free with no place to live and no money.


And how did Qui-gon do this? Selling Anakin's pod-racer.

Watto: No pod is worth tow slaves.

Considering the overall low level of technology seen on Tatooine, Padme could easily take some salvaged technology back there and sell it for Tatooine credits. Hell, the thriving droid market there just screams at her selling off some of her R2 units.

You mean sell of R2 well if you say so I mean that's all they have in R2 units when they got to Tatooine.

Again, none of this is unreasonable, unless we hear from one of the many posters who apparently has a axe to grind against the possibility of Padme freeing Shmi.

Your missing the one thing I have been saying. Watto alredy lost one slave. HE WILL NOT give up Shmi. Not for Republic credits. They are no good out there. What is he going to do with something that is no good to him. On top of that it's a matter of does and if he even wants to give Shmi away.

It's up to Watto. Not the people of Naboo not Padme. Not the Jedi. Not even Anakin. Which all they have any ways are Republic credits. So there goes that idea out the window.

 

No, just that they had jobs. Shmi could have found work, she had some skills. She wouldn't have just 'been freed with no home and no job.'

EDIT AOTC is on HBO at 9 a.m. Later, all!